Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

Region/Y-DNA
I
R1a
R1b
GJ2J1
E
TQNOthers
Vlachs/Aromuns20.51021.53.524.50.516.52001
Albania15.59161.519.5227.5100
Bulgaria261711511323.51.50.50.5
Croatia43.5248.52.561100.510.5
Greece14.511.515.56.5233214.500
Italy10439915.5313.52.500
Macedonia27.513.512.5414221.51.50.50.5
Romania341815.5313.511410.51.5
Serbia42.51862.591150.512.5
I chose from here https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml some regions that seemed to me with the haplogroups distribution closer to the Aromuns. Croatia and Serbia seem the most distant. What do you think would be closer?
 
JajarBingan said:
We have a Thracian reference, Balkans Iron Age I5769 from Dzyulyunitsa in Northeastern Bulgaria. Considering that Dacians lived on both shores of the Danube and then retreated into the mountains, it is safe to assume that they are really similar autosomally.

Who is Balkans I5769 closest to today? Albanians, even though they too have inflated Eastern Hunter Gatherer ancestry, which after the Iron Age could have come mostly with the Slavs. There aren't many other candidates.

Everyone in the Balkans, together with mainland Greeks, are best modeled as 3-way mixtures of this Thracian, late Bronze Age Greeks and the medieval Slav from Bohemia.

I even created a calculator for this, Balkans K4

PopulationThracian + GreekSlavic
Greek92%6%
Albanian87%13%
Bulgarian70%30%
Macedonian65%35%
Romanian65%35%
Serbian60%40%
Montenegrin60%40%
Moldovan50%50%
Bosnian45%55%
Croatian35%65%
Slovenian30%70%
Click to expand...

Romanian mate, I think only the most Eastern Shifted Romanians,which are a minority (maybe 1 in 10) have 35% of genetics of Slavic+East Germanic origin.
For the moment, most genetic testing is not making difference from South Baltic and other Baltic admixture, which should be the original Slavs admixture and Eastern Germanics speakers admixture.
The East Germanics should have come from somewhere in current SW land of Poland and SE land of Germany.
Old inhabitants from near Bucharest and from South Prahova county had mode light haired/light brown haired people.
Suppose most there were of East Germanic origins.
Maybe if you would have taken blonde and light brown haired people from South Prahova county and near Bucharest, about 20% of the people here were blonde and light brown haired.
In Vaslui county people are clearly most blonde from Romania and black hair there I suppose is quite rare.
But rest of Romanians are as rule dark or medium browned hair.
Seems the black haired one are mostly of Celtic ancestry.
Slavs were not dark brown , were either blonde either light brown haired.
 
Dreptul Valah said:
Another proof for heavy forestation, the Ottomans efforts to secure their big camp from ambushes,see the top of the page:



https://books.google.ro/books?id=6P...onstantin mihailovic about targoviste&f=false



This kind of tactics,to surprise the enemy in close field was something specific for all the Romanian states,for example the Wallachian victory at Posada or the battle from the Codrii Cosminului(Cosmin Forest),supported by the verb atine,that comes from Latin.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/aține#Romanian



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat...ile:Viennese_Illuminated_Chronicle_Posada.jpg



Unfortunately, the history books don't say nothing about the average person,who had akey role in these kind of wars.



Friedrich Wilhelm Bauer,1778,"The Wallachians are usually tall people,strong-build,with a very good temperament,they rarely have diseases,and the plague,so common toTurks ,doesn't show up here almost never".



Jean Luis Carras:"The Wallachians and Moldavians are usually tall and robust ".
Click to expand...

This kind of tactics is rather related to Celts/Gauls not to Romans.
As a personal opinion, Dacians were more closed to Gauls/Celts as ethnicity, than to Romans.
To shatter a little the theory that most Romanian language comes from Latin (it comes from Dacian, which was Eastern CeltoItalic language, closer to Italic, than to Celtic):
English: raven
Romanian: corb
Albanian: korb
Old Gaelic Scottish: korbie
Latin: corvus
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/corbie_n
And to show even more clear that this word is from Dacian and Gaelic languages and not from Latin:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/corbie
So in Old French they were telling to the raven corb, exactly as the Romanians and Albanians are telling.
So, lol Albanians, Romanians and Gauls from France, all have taken Corvus from Latin and started to pronounce it as corb.
/facepalm
I suppose Gaelic Scottish language took corbie from Latin also, they somehow started to pronounce corbie instead of corvus, right?
This is not plausible at all.
So, in France there is even a commune called Corbie:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corbie
So this word is from Dacian language and not from Latin.
:)
Another Romanian word that is exactly cognate to Gaelic languages:
English: big
Romanian: mare
Latin: magnum
Irish Gaelic: mor
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mór#Irish - meaning big, large, great, exactly,exactly same meaning as in Romanian
(Stefan cel Mare)
In the other Gaelic languages is still mor.

So this word in Romanian more, more plausible comes from Dacian and is cognate to Gaelic languages.
And the examples could continue,but I will give only one more example:
We call a large part of Tara Romaneasca Oltenia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oltenia
Now a simple proof that this name is also cognate to Gaelic languages:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olten
 
Dreptul Vlad if you continue with the Putin propaganda here that our language comes from Latin and that, you know, Dacians were rather related to Slavs.
I kindly require you to write us something in Romanian, with diacritics.
Hai mai Românule să te vedem, cum vorbești tu in limba noastră.
Aromânii provin din daci și traci, nu din coloniști romani.
 
gidai said:
Region/Y-DNA
I
R1a
R1b
GJ2J1
E
TQNOthers
Vlachs/Aromuns20.51021.53.524.50.516.52001
Albania15.59161.519.5227.5100
Bulgaria261711511323.51.50.50.5
Croatia43.5248.52.561100.510.5
Greece14.511.515.56.5233214.500
Italy10439915.5313.52.500
Macedonia27.513.512.5414221.51.50.50.5
Romania341815.5313.511410.51.5
Serbia42.51862.591150.512.5
I chose from here https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml some regions that seemed to me with the haplogroups distribution closer to the Aromuns. Croatia and Serbia seem the most distant. What do you think would be closer?
Click to expand...

I did an exercise calculating the percentage differences of each haplogrup for each country to those of the Aromanians, and then I gathered these differences.

Results: (the smaller the difference, the closer Y-DNA results are)
Greece ....... 30
Albania ...... 32
Italy .......... 34,5
Bulgaria ..... 38,5
Macedonia .. 38,5
Romania ..... 45
Serbia ........ 69
Croatia ....... 79,5

Considering the type of spoken language (romance) I also made a combination cumulating the percents of Romania and Italy and dividing it by 2.
The difference obtained in this case from Aromanians is even smaller.
Romania + Italy ... 26,25
Interesting! I'm not surprised.

p.s.
Anyway, I think from an autosomal point of view it might be differences.
 
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I think that I was more than clear,keep your chatting and provocations for the young men of your age...

And another thing,I understand that the Hungarians have a more open way to talk,but you probably passed these limits a lot.
 
Dreptul Valah said:
I think that I was more than clear,keep your chatting and provocations for the young men of your age...

And another thing,I understand that the Hungarians have a more open way to talk,but you probably passed these limits a lot.
Click to expand...
I wrote you messages in Romanian via Reputation and you did not replied anything.
And threatening people (as you just did here) just because something they told is typical to East Slavs, mate, not to Romanians.
I have actually talked to Aromanians and an Aromanian told me about "Tatal Nostru" from Welsh Country Celts, which is similar to Romanian:
https://www.activenews.ro/prima-pagina/Care-este-adevarul-despre-Tatal-Nostru-in-limba-celta-97625
The Aromanians do not think they descend from Roman Empire colonists, but that they are natives from this area.
Guess why they are calling themselves Machedoni.

If you know Romanian and a little Aromanian you will notice that this version of "Tatal Nostru" from Welsh people Gaelic language,from Wales, is actually closer to Aromanian than to Romanian.
Guess what some Aromanians are even scoring 36% R1B.

Guess another thing, there are Albanians that are scoring on autosomal DNA same with Central Italians!
Take Dibran from this forum.
Because Romans and Thracians were very, very related people.
Ilyrians were between Romans and Thracians.

The resemblance of Romanian to Italian is very very weird and cannot be explained by the Latin common origin theory.
Ok, leave aside Italian, let us take French which is Galo-Romance or some South Italian langauge, as Sardinian.
Romanian is actually closest to Sardinian from other languages, closer to Sardinian, than to Italian.Is only 2nd closer to Italian.
Why?
Not because Dacians spoke a language that was closed to Italian?

How a person that studied 4 classes in the school and does not speaks Romanian correctly learns in less than 1 year Italian ?



The theory that all Romance languages are coming from Latin makes exactly same sense with telling that all Slavic languages are coming from Russian :) .

Now coming back to Aromanians, all got plenty of I, which I supposed is mostly I2 or so.
So they are natives from Balkans.
Not colonists from Roman Empire.
Because I2 brought by Slavic migration of 600 AD was from assimilated Thraco-Gothic people,living North of Romania.
 
And for overanalyzing, you're definitely doing on your own,actually, other people's risk,it's not the first time...


I see that you and your buddies like Deymark/Mount Y,Search-star,from the Andromeda, wide-space, keep doing the same things.


As for Putin's men,they have some initiative,but I definitely didn't reach to any solution...
 
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The Romanians, Moldavians included,plot near the South-Slavs for a few reasons:


-common Paleo-Balkanic genes

-some common South-Slavic ancestry,in our case,mostly assimilated into Romanian-Vlachs in the early period,however, the genetic distance between Romania and Northern-Slavic countries, like Poland and Belarus is huge.


This can be explained by the fact that 90% of the lowland settlements from roughly the SE area,the Moldavian and Eastern Danube plains have disappeared at the time of the Pecheneg-Cuman invasions,separating the populations with Slavic ancestry.


Plus,most of the Romanian plain was covered by forests, I have already discussed about it,perhaps, it was a good reason for the Slavs to find more fertile terrains,south of the Danube.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702745/


-various populations-groups mixtures
 
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In the Carpathian basin,Transylvania included ,these agricultural populations that had certain amount of Slavic ancestry had survived, see the Moravian state,unlike the outer Carpathian area.


That's why the Transylvanians get also some Central European admixture of Slavic origin,shared with the Poles,Czechs,Hungarians,even Ukrainians, unlike the Wallachians and Moldavians that cluster with the Central Balkan populations,like Serbs, Kosovars,Montenegrins,Bosnians ,Macedonians,partly Croatians and Greeks,Albanians from north and Western Bulgarians,data from My heritage.


The dispersion also proves the Romanians-Vlachs coming from north of the Danube,lack of this set of genes in entire Bulgaria or in the whole area of the Despotate of Epirus.


The lack (or way less)of compatibility with South Albania proves that the Tosks came from other place,most likely from Northern Albania, they were involved in further mutations when settled in the southern parts or simply were not involved anymore in the genetic process es that happened after their departure,because they clearly inherited lots of Proto-Albanian genes,despite the Coon's malicious remark,many of them are actually quite fair haired and Dinaric,IMO,even less foreign-admixed than those from the north.
 
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Dreptul Valah said:
The Romanians, Moldavians included,plot near the South-Slavs for a few reasons:


-common Paleo-Balkanic genes

-some common South-Slavic ancestry,in our case,mostly assimilated into Romanian-Vlachs in the early period,however, the genetic distance between Romania and Northern-Slavic countries, like Poland and Belarus is huge.


This can be explained by the fact that 90% of the lowland settlements from roughly the SE area,the Moldavian and Eastern Danube plains have disappeared at the time of the Pecheneg-Cuman invasions,separating the populations with Slavic ancestry.


Plus,most of the Romanian plain was covered by forests, I have already discussed about it,perhaps, it was a good reason for the Slavs to find more fertile terrains,south of the Danube.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702745/


-various populations-groups mixtures
Click to expand...

And how some Aromanians are having 36% R1B?
We do not know what kind of R1B is.
We can suppose that R1B-M269, to which R1B-L23 also belongs, are also natives to Balkans.
Anyway it worth mentioning that some Aromanians from Balkans have highest R1B percentage.
Is the Aromanians from Albania.
What would be really nice to do, by someone with more diplomatic skills to talk to Aromanian community so they take deep clade Y DNA testing for 1% of the living Aromanians, chosen statistically.
 
Fatherland said:
Exactly the word we use for blade/knife.
Click to expand...

I have an obsession with collecting swords. Combative and decorative. Including a re-curve hunting bow. I was born in the wrong age lol.
 
I also want to say my opinion, I a Romanian with Aromanian origins. First of all, the Aromanians do not come from the territory of the present Romania, they represent the old native population of mainland Greece, historical Macedonia and southern Albania. Genetically, they are slightly different from the Romanian, the Aromanians result in genetic tests with high percentages of "Greek," while the Romanians have the highest percentages of "Balkan / Slavic". Only those who know well both the Aromanians and the Romanians can make a comparison and one can see that the Aromanians have a more southern appearance, being very easy to pass as a true Greek or even Albanian, even Bulgarian, while the Romanians have a rather more Nordic with different influences. Aromanians from ancient times supported Orthodoxy and Greek culture, being the ones who spread Hellenism and Byzantine tradition both in the Balkans and in Romania and elsewhere, being constantly perceived and recorded in acts as "Greeks." One thing they have in common is the influence of the Eastern Roman Empire on the linguistic side, but each one has a different evolution. It is a shame that many Romanians want to show that the Aromanians are Romanian, sinful and that other Balkan nations denies the native character of the Aromanians in the Balkans.

View attachment 10541View attachment 10542View attachment 10543View attachment 10544View attachment 10545
 
Balkan1992 said:
I also want to say my opinion, I a Romanian with Aromanian origins. First of all, the Aromanians do not come from the territory of the present Romania, they represent the old native population of mainland Greece, historical Macedonia and southern Albania. Genetically, they are slightly different from the Romanian, the Aromanians result in genetic tests with high percentages of "Greek," while the Romanians have the highest percentages of "Balkan / Slavic". Only those who know well both the Aromanians and the Romanians can make a comparison and one can see that the Aromanians have a more southern appearance, being very easy to pass as a true Greek or even Albanian, even Bulgarian, while the Romanians have a rather more Nordic with different influences. Aromanians from ancient times supported Orthodoxy and Greek culture, being the ones who spread Hellenism and Byzantine tradition both in the Balkans and in Romania and elsewhere, being constantly perceived and recorded in acts as "Greeks." One thing they have in common is the influence of the Eastern Roman Empire on the linguistic side, but each one has a different evolution. It is a shame that many Romanians want to show that the Aromanians are Romanian, sinful and that other Balkan nations denies the native character of the Aromanians in the Balkans.

View attachment 10541
Click to expand...

"Only the remnants of a Latin-speaking population survived in parts of the central and west-central Balkans; when it re-emerges into the historical record in the tenth and eleventh centuries, we find its members leading a semi-nomadic life as shepherds, horse-breeders and travelling muleteers. These were the Vlachs, who can still be seen tending their flocks in the mountains of northern Greece, Macedonia and Albania today. [14] The name 'Vlach' was a word used by the Slavs for those they encountered who spoke a strange, usually Latinate, language; the Vlachs' own name for themselves is 'Aromanians' (Aromani).

As this name suggests, the Vlachs are closely linked to the Romanians: their two languages (which, with a little practice, are mutually intelligible) diverged only in the ninth or tenth century. [15] While Romanian historians have tried to argue that the Romanian-speakers have always lived in the territory of Romania (originating, it is claimed, from Romanized Dacian tribes and/or Roman legionaries), there is compelling evidence to show that the Romanian-speakers were originally part of the same population as the Vlachs, whose language and way of life were developed somewhere to the south of the Danube. Only in the twelfth century did the early Romanian-speakers move northwards into Romanian territory. [16]



Linguists have long been aware that Albanian and Romanian have many features in common, in matters of structure, vocabulary and idiom, and that these must have arisen in two ways. First, the 'substratum' of Romanian (that is, the language spoken by the proto-Romanians before they switched to Latin) must have been similar to Albanian; and secondly, there must have been close contact between Albanians and early Romanian-speakers over a long period, involving a shared pastoral life. (Some key elements of the pastoral vocabulary in Romanian are borrowed from Albanian.) [63] The substratum elements include both structural matters, such as the positioning of the definite article as a suffix on the end of the noun, and various elements of primitive Balkan pre-Latin vocabulary, such as copil ('child' in Romanian) or kopil ('bastard child' in Albanian). [64] If the links between the two languages were only at substratum level, this might not imply any geographical proximity - it would merely show that proto-Albanian was similar to other varieties of Illyrian spoken elsewhere. But the pastoral connections do indicate that Albanians and early Romanians lived for a long time in the same (or at least overlapping) areas."


Origins: Serbs, Albanians and Vlachs
Chapter 2 in Noel Malcolm's Kosovo, a short history (Macmilan, London, 1998, p. 22-40)

LINK: http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/nm/kosovo.html#16.
 
Fatherland said:
Exactly the word we use for blade/knife.
Click to expand...


All the Romanian-Vlachs have a Latin word ,cutit,probably related to coltello or from ascutit,that means sharp.


The villages from my area are of shepherd stock,they came from the mountains,my ancestors, for example from Muntii Buzaului and Vrancei in1850's,1870's on the old transhumance routes.


There were very though rivalries between these settlements, until 10-15 years ago,before they start shutting down the local pubs and clubs,when the "intruders" came for the local girls ,things degenerated into fightings, usually these people were "awaited".


In the very most of the cases,only fists and bata,shepherd's bats were used,sometimes even wooden planks from the fences.
The knife was extremely rare pulled,only when somebody got really mad.


There are records from the Moldavian and Wallachian voivods,that killings because of fighting were very severely punished and the use of metal blades forbidden.
 
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Dreptul Valah said:
All the Romanian-Vlachs have a Latin word ,cutit,probably related to coltello or from ascutit,that means sharp.


The villages from my area are of shepherd stock,they came from the mountains,my ancestors, for example from Muntii Buzaului and Vrancei in1850's,1870's.


There were very though rivalries between these settlements, until 10-15 years ago,when they start shutting down the local pubs and clubs,when the "intruders" came for the local girls ,things degenerated into fightings, usually these people were "awaited".


In the very most of the cases,only fists and bata,shepherd's bats were used,sometimes even wooden planks from the fences.

The knife was extremely rare pulled,only when somebody got really mad.


There are records from the Moldavian and Wallachian voivods,that killings because of fighting were very severely punished and the use of metal blades forbidden.
Click to expand...
Just another word in Romanian that was supposed to come from Latin but is coming from our old Dacian language.
Romanian - cutit
Corsican Italian dialect - cutteddu
:)
Corsican is an Italic language, from the Tuscan family.
@Balkan1992
Please, for curiosity, take a little look at these Corsican languages:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallurese_dialect
To me it seems Aromanian sounds close to these languages.
 
Some of my great-great-grandfathers from here had lots of sheeps ,hundred ,hundreds each,but,like in Miorita,you don't inherit the herd, many of the shepherds switched to landownering.


Speaking of Miorita,it can be an Aromanian influence, since the shepherds used to cross Vadu Oii into Dobrogea and further into Bulgaria,even in Ottoman times.


There were alot of Romanian shepherds in Dobrogea,here and in Bulgaria they've met the Aromanian ones.


In any case it resembles some Macedonian-Slavic songs from the Sar mountains,for instance,SE navali Sar Planina,we do know that Tetovo had a Vlahoepiskop in the early Serbian state.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-hnD3Y73T4w



https://lyricstranslate.com/en/se-navali-sar-planina-se-navali-shar-planina-sar-mountain-leaned.html



https://lyricstranslate.com/en/mioriț-little-sheep-popular-ballad.html


https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/record/92040/BibliographicResource_3000094574409.html
 
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