Y DNA R1b and homosexuality

There is a great debate right now as to whether homosexuality is genetic or learned, homosexuals themselves strongly believe that they are "born this way". I present to you my research into the topic.

First I will reference this map of the legality of homosexuality in Europe contrasted against the spread of Y DNA Haplogroup R1b in Europe.




You can easily see that homosexuality is only legal in European countries where the y dna haplogroup r1b is most common.

As we already know R1b is directly tied to the spread of the celtic cultures in europe.
(Map of the spread of celtic cultures below, also correlates to homosexuality legality status).



To finalize this theory I present a quote from the great Greek philosopher Aristolte and a later Roman Historian on the sexual preferences of the celts (taken from the celtic wikipedia page)

According to Aristotle, most "belligerent nations" were strongly influenced by their women, but the Celts were unusual because their men openly preferred male lovers (Politics II 1269b).^[77] H. D. Rankin in Celts and the Classical World notes that "Athenaeus echoes this comment (603a) and so does Ammianus (30.9). It seems to be the general opinion of antiquity."^[78] In book XIII of his Deipnosophists, the Roman Greek rhetorician and grammarian Athenaeus, repeating assertions made by Diodorus Siculus in the 1st century BC (Bibliotheca historica 5:32), wrote that Celtic women were beautiful but that the men preferred to sleep together. Diodorus went further, stating that "the young men will offer themselves to strangers and are insulted if the offer is refused".



I think it is fair to say that r1b most likely carries the gene responsible for homosexuality.

Here is another great map illustrating the legality of homosexuality in europe, the other one may be a little broad (global)

motzart said:

I think it is fair to say that r1b most likely carries the gene responsible for homosexuality.

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Is this a comedy thread?

I mean, you do know that homosexuals are born from heterosexual parents, don't you? You also do know that there are LGBT people in every corner of the world? And that countries in which homosexuality is legal actually are industrialized democracies, which *might* much better explain the level of social progress said countries are able to reach? I suppose you also do know that R1b isn't a chromosome or even a gene and as such it cannot "carry" anything, and that if there may be a part of genetic background in homosexuality as an aspect of an invidual's personality, it's mainly our experiences as a human being which make people who they are?

Drawing such conclusions from such random elements is irrelevant at best, and dangerous at worst. Dangerous, because it's the same kind of reasoning that gave birth to "scientific" racism at the beginning of the XXth century. Sorry for the seemingly aggressive tone of this reply, but such complete nonsense deserves a clear reply.

Orillion said:

Is this a comedy thread?

I mean, you do know that homosexuals are born from heterosexual parents, don't you? You also do know that there are LGBT people in every corner of the world? And that countries in which homosexuality is legal actually are industrialized democracies, which *might* much better explain the level of social progress said countries are able to reach? I suppose you also do know that R1b isn't a chromosome or even a gene and as such it cannot "carry" anything, and that if there may be a part of genetic background in homosexuality as an aspect of an invidual's personality, it's mainly our experiences as a human being which make people who they are?

Drawing such conclusions from such random elements is irrelevant at best, and dangerous at worst. Dangerous, because it's the same kind of reasoning that gave birth to "scientific" racism at the beginning of the XXth century. Sorry for the seemingly aggressive tone of this reply, but such complete nonsense deserves a clear reply.

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Yes there are LGBT people in all corners of the world, just like there is variation in height/hair color/eye color around the world, yet in certain European countries we see these traits much more commonly expressed than elsewhere in the world, as with homosexuality.

Countries like Japan, South Korea, and Russia (and China in some ways) are equally as advanced technologically as the west and yet these issues do not have legal status there. I agree that acceptance of LGBT people represents social progress but why is it only in western Europe that these issues are important enough to the populace to achieve legal acceptance? For this to happen a consistent portion of the population must identify as homosexual, whereas it is less common elsewhere in the world.

I am not trying to say that everyone who has R1b is a homosexual, but rather there may be some gene on the R1b y chromosome that correlates with homosexual tendencies, only expressed in some individuals. This would make sense as the Y chromosome is the one responsible for the expression of sex characteristic.

As to your comment about someone's experiences making them who they are, homosexuals are very adamant that their preference is NOT a decision and it is genetic. This was the first thing I addressed in my post.

Your comment about scientific racism is valid only if you believe there is something wrong with being a homosexual which there is absolutely not.

To further my point as to why the issue of homosexuality is so important in Western Europe and to whether that is just a function of "social progress".

I would argue that legalization of Cannabis is also an issue that represents "social progress", you can contrast this map of the legal status of Cannabis in the world against the legalization of homosexual unions in my first post and see that Cannabis is important enough to achieve legal status in many primarily non R1b countries while homosexuality is limited to only R1b countries in several of which Cannabis remains illegal. This is not an issue of some countries being "better" than others in terms of social progress but rather a, "Why are some issues more important here than there?" question.

You're obviously stuck on your opinion, which is supported by absolutely no argument other than your own belief. You can't simply post similar maps about totally different topics and draw conclusions. I'm sorry, but you can post as many of these as you want, it won't make your point more valid.

Example:

motzart said:

yet in certain European countries we see these traits much more commonly expressed than elsewhere in the world, as with homosexuality.

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What's your sources for writing the above sentence? Do you have any data, objective, verifiable data? Has it occured to you that being a homosexual and living in, say, Saudi Arabia, or Subsaharian Africa, means being a prime target for assassination, sometimes by your own family? Under these circumstances, only a very little proportion of LGBT people are actually out, most of them are living in the closet. You could ask them as many times as you want, they'd never admit they are gay. There are thousands of reasons (cultural, religious, economic, etc.) which can explain why such a topic is handled differently by different countries without having to resort to dubious biological explanations.

motzart said:

This would make sense as the Y chromosome is the one responsible for the expression of sex characteristic.

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You're confounding separate things here. The Y chromosome contains what turns a human embryo into a male embryo (biological sex). At around two years of age, children are beginning to identify themselves as being a boy or a girl, or in rare cases, neither (gender). At around 7 years of age, the first signs of what will eventually become sexual attraction appear, and begin to develop over several years until self-consciousness of said sexual attraction is gained (sexual orientation). These are three separate phenomenon, as has been shown by gender studies (a field of academic research that you should explore, since you're interested in the topic of homosexuality).

I'll explain a bit more what "scientific racism" means. In the above quotation, you're equating sex characteristic with sexual orientation. As i just said, these are different things, but equating them is a common misconception which is solely based on the assumption that being a male homosexual means that you're not a "real" man/being a lesbian means that you're not a "real" woman. Granted, it's not racism here, but casual sexism, but the mechanism is just the same. Mind that i'm not accusing you of being a horrible racist, i'm just saying that our reasoning is biased by our cultural background, which contains a certain level of implicit racism/sexism.

Once again, i can't stress enough the importance of reading books about gender studies if you're into that kind of topic. It'll clear a lot of things out.

motzart said:

There is a great debate right now as to whether homosexuality is genetic or learned, homosexuals themselves strongly believe that they are "born this way". I present to you my research into the topic.

First I will reference this map of the legality of homosexuality in Europe contrasted against the spread of Y DNA Haplogroup R1b in Europe.

You can easily see that homosexuality is only legal in European countries where the y dna haplogroup r1b is most common.

As we already know R1b is directly tied to the spread of the celtic cultures in europe.
(Map of the spread of celtic cultures below, also correlates to homosexuality legality status).

To finalize this theory I present a quote from the great Greek philosopher Aristolte and a later Roman Historian on the sexual preferences of the celts (taken from the celtic wikipedia page)

According to Aristotle, most "belligerent nations" were strongly influenced by their women, but the Celts were unusual because their men openly preferred male lovers (Politics II 1269b).^[77] H. D. Rankin in Celts and the Classical World notes that "Athenaeus echoes this comment (603a) and so does Ammianus (30.9). It seems to be the general opinion of antiquity."^[78] In book XIII of his Deipnosophists, the Roman Greek rhetorician and grammarian Athenaeus, repeating assertions made by Diodorus Siculus in the 1st century BC (Bibliotheca historica 5:32), wrote that Celtic women were beautiful but that the men preferred to sleep together. Diodorus went further, stating that "the young men will offer themselves to strangers and are insulted if the offer is refused".



I think it is fair to say that r1b most likely carries the gene responsible for homosexuality.

Click to expand...

This is very offensive, that you associate us R1b L11 carriers and west Europeans with homosexuality. The Celts did not spread R1b L11 in west Europe, just many believe Indo Europeans who spoke the ancestral languages to Italo-Celtic and Germanic arrived with it from the east about 5,000 years ago, and that it rapidly spread during the bronze age. Whether people think homosexuality in inmoral or not, is all about culture and politics NOT genetics. West Europeans are very left winged people, unlike many of their relatives in America. A big reason R1b L11 became so popular in west Europe is probably largely because of high ranking males who had many women, not homosexuality. Also, what about R1b carriers in west Asia?

It is no big deal that some Celtic tribes Romans knew were very homosexual, Greeks and Romans had the same problem and they had issues with other forms of sexual perversion. I highly doubt any of those Celts saw homosexuality as a loving marriage between two men, they saw it as a perverted sexual relationship. Those young men who offer themselves to strangers aren't looking for a husband they can start a family with. Modern left-wingers twist what homosexuality has always been known for, so that they can justify it.

I am not trying to say that everyone who has R1b is a homosexual, but rather there may be some gene on the R1b y chromosome that correlates with homosexual tendencies, only expressed in some individuals. This would make sense as the Y chromosome is the one responsible for the expression of sex characteristic.

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Are you sure you want to say that again?



Just kidding around.

Whether or not homosexuality is expressed on the Y-chromosome(which I doubt) should not really matter. From these maps we can safely see a shocking pattern. However I bet there are as many homosexuals and trans people in non R1b countries as in R1b countries. Perhaps we could say that R1b countries have begun to tolerate homosexuality better than most non R1b countries. But that would be due to culture and social progress rather than genetics.

Power77 said:

Whether or not homosexuality is expressed on the Y-chromosome(which I doubt) should not really matter. From these maps we can safely see a shocking pattern. However I bet there are as many homosexuals and trans people in non R1b countries as in R1b countries. Perhaps we could say that R1b countries have begun to tolerate homosexuality better than most non R1b countries. But that would be due to culture and social progress rather than genetics.

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Well said.
Homosexuality goes across all Y and X chromosomes. Just by this fact the premise of this thread, linking it to just R1b, is wrong.

Orillion said:

What's your sources for writing the above sentence? Do you have any data, objective, verifiable data? Has it occured to you that being a homosexual and living in, say, Saudi Arabia, or Subsaharian Africa, means being a prime target for assassination, sometimes by your own family? Under these circumstances, only a very little proportion of LGBT people are actually out, most of them are living in the closet. You could ask them as many times as you want, they'd never admit they are gay. There are thousands of reasons (cultural, religious, economic, etc.) which can explain why such a topic is handled differently by different countries without having to resort to dubious biological explanations.

Click to expand...

At some point in history it was punishable by death to be gay anywhere, yet only in Western Europe have groups managed to push acceptance for the lifestyle, it is not something that has happened overnight but a gradual erosion of a prejudice made by a strong presence of homosexuals within these societies. The argument that western countries are "Just more progressive" does not hold up, I've shown you a map already regarding Cannabis legalization that shows that there are other countries in the world more progressive in that regard. Take a look at these maps regarding the legalization of Abortion, another "progressive issue".






You can see that Russia which is a very anti homosexual country is more progressive than Europe when it comes to Cannabis legalization or Abortion, even China is more progressive than the UK and Ireland when it comes to Abortion. Acceptance of the gay lifestyle within Western Europe is NOT simply a function of an overall liberal bias. How then did social acceptance of homosexuality become such a hot issue in Western Europe pushed to the point where it has legal status equivalent to the heterosexual lifestyle? Again I will reiterate, at some point in history homosexuality was punishable by death everywhere, ONLY in Western Europe was the issue so important that it has been changed.

Whether it is gay male or some other LGBT situation, these deviations from the heterosexual lifestyle are all socially accepted only where R1b is common. I have shown that the deviation has been documented for thousands of years from the earliest historians. Whether it is a gene on the R1b Y Chromosome or some other genetic trait the celts carried with them is unknown, what IS known is that there is a correlation between these groups and deviation from the traditional heterosexual lifestyle.

Orillion said:

you're equating sex characteristic with sexual orientation.

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NO

I am investigating the assertion that GAY (Or LGBT) people AS THEY CLAIM are BORN this way and that they do not CHOOSE to be this way. If, as these groups VERY STRONGLY believe, there is a GENETIC cause for their seuxual orientation, then it is linked to a gene, and what better gene to be the cause in homosexual men than the y chromosome.

Such a wrong analogy would be comparable to saying that baldness is caused by having haplogroup J1 or that all bald/balding men are J1 carriers or that J1 carriers are more prone to baldness than carriers of other Y-chromosomes. Pretty presproterous way of thinking if you ask me.

motzart said:

NO

I am investigating the assertion that GAY (Or LGBT) people AS THEY CLAIM are BORN this way and that they do not CHOOSE to be this way. If, as these groups VERY STRONGLY believe, there is a GENETIC cause for their seuxual orientation, then it is linked to a gene, and what better gene to be the cause in homosexual men than the y chromosome.

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So what Y haplogroup causes homosexuality in women?

motzart said:

At some point in history it was punishable by death to be gay anywhere, yet only in Western Europe have groups managed to push acceptance for the lifestyle, it is not something that has happened overnight but a gradual erosion of a prejudice made by a strong presence of homosexuals within these societies. The argument that western countries are "Just more progressive" does not hold up, I've shown you a map already regarding Cannabis legalization that shows that there are other countries in the world more progressive in that regard. Take a look at these maps regarding the legalization of Abortion, another "progressive issue".

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Richer countries are more liberal than poor ones generally speaking. That's why LGBT have highest freedoms of expression in Western Europe. It just happened that Western Europe is rich in R1b therefore you see a missleading corelation, between R1b and homoseuality. There is no causation.

Russia and China and few others are evenements in case of abortions. This was set by communist party decree few decades ago. Society didn't have chance to vote for or against, unlike in the Western free countries.

LeBrok said:

Well said.
Homosexuality goes across all Y and X chromosomes. Just by this fact the premise of this thread, linking it to just R1b, is wrong.

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Assumptions.

Fire Haired14 said:

Assumptions.

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What haplogroups, you assume, will gays in China or Japan have?

Power77 said:

Such a wrong analogy would be comparable to saying that baldness is caused by having haplogroup J1 or that all bald/balding men are J1 carriers or that J1 carriers are more prone to baldness than carriers of other Y-chromosomes. Pretty presproterous way of thinking if you ask me.

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Not quite. Dude thinks that the pattern of gay-marriage (and similar social peculiarities) is linked with it. You'd have to add, for example, J1 area females burning hot for bald men, to complete your analogy. Anyway this makes sense:

motzart said:

I am investigating the assertion that GAY (Or LGBT) people AS THEY CLAIM are BORN this way and that they do not CHOOSE to be this way.If, as these groups VERY STRONGLY believe,there is a GENETIC cause for their seuxual orientation, then it is linked to a gene, and what better gene to be the cause in homosexual men than the y chromosome.

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BTW, it doesn't matter if they claim it or not. It's a logical assumption that there could be hereditary factors involved. Their opinion is of no importance so you don't have to involve it in your theory.

There is also a possibility that it is imprinted in all of us, but some societies have also imprinted a better tolerance towards that kind of behavior.

LeBrok said:

Richer countries are more liberal than poor ones generally speaking. That's why LGBT have highest freedoms of expression in Western Europe. It just happened that Western Europe is rich in R1b therefore you see a missleading corelation, between R1b and homosexuality. There is no causation.

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Saudi Arabia and Qatar are very wealthy but you don't see liberal attitudes in these countries. Why is Western Europe so accepting of Homosexuality but not Cannabis and Abortions if they are so "liberal"?

LeBrok said:

What haplogroups, you assume, will gays in China or Japan have?

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As with pigmentation and other traits, there can be many genes that result in similar effects.

Gays in China and Japan might have the gay gene currently being investigated by rearchers found on the X Chromosome Xq28.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...ly-partly-due-to-gay-gene-research-finds.html

I think it is more likely that the cause of homosexuality in European men will be linked to R1b, we know that the majority of the aristocracy and monarchs in Europe have been R1b, and we also have a thoroughly documented tendency towards homosexual behavior in these groups.