Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

sparkey said:

I2c as a Balkans refuge subclade is possible but unlikely IMHO, since its older clusters are very Western and its most closely related subclade, I2b-ADR, is Central. Though, there's been enough bottlenecking that we can't really extrapolate back to the Paleolithic easily.

Nordtvedt guesses a Mediterranean route with a Western or Central MRCA location for I2c and a Northeastern European (somewhere around Belarus) MRCA location for I2a-Din, see here. That is based strictly on SNP hierarchy and STR diversity so it's unbiased-ish.

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According to that STR/SNP maximum likelihood tree the oldest I2 cluster/trmrca appear to be in Scotland/England/Spain. As to the old I2* people, my line is a standalone and TMRCA with the rest is about 3000 years old.

Bodin said:

Maciamo made it on this forum

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What are the sources? Anyone with good designing skills can make a map, but what studies are these maps based on? I ask for the source, not a map.

now please explain how could it be any other than I2a2-Din- give your reasons why would you believe it could be I2c or I2b?
Why do you question it is I2a2-Din , I dont see any other posibility , please show me where is my mistake if you know .
Thanks for answering

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Your mistake is you have no sources, the sources you're providing don't say I2a2, they say I*, this I* could be I2a2, I2a*, I2b, I2c, so on, in other words you're basing this on speculations, which are NOT facts, but rather guesses, a fact is when you have proper evidence, until you provide the evidence that the majority are I2a2, there's no need to speculate.

The other thing is, EVEN if I2a2 is found in Anatolia, what makes you think it did not enter Anatolia from the Balkans? In fact that's most likely the case, since it's rarity in Central Asia and other Iranian populations such as Pashtuns, Tajiks, Pamiris, Balochis, etc tells me that this lineage is not really one of the components among the Iranian populations, and its presence among the Kurds is the same reason why it's present among the Armenians, Turks, and other Anatolian populations, it's a gene wave from the Balkans.

Kardu said:

P.S. I am also a descendant from an old noble family so maybe there is some truth in I2c and nobility connection after all

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Which family? If it's not to private for you. Don't say Bagrationi. A lot Georgians belong to a noble family, maybe Georgia has the highest nobility rating in the whole world!

BTW, a majority of the French kings were G2!

Cobol19 said:

and its presence among the Kurds is the same reason why it's present among the Armenians, Turks, and other Anatolian populations, it's a gene wave from the Balkans.

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No, there's only 4-5% of I in Turkey and Armenians. I in Turks and Armenians is just a geneflow. But there is 16-33% of I in Kurdistan. 20% of I is just to much for a nation of 40 million people to be just a geneflow + I is everywhere in Kurdistan, not just in one area. Sure Kurds are West Asians like Turks or Armenias, but Turks, Armenians, Kurds have all diferent ancestors.
Turks are from the Seljuks, Armenias are from the Urartu, while Kurds are from the Mitanni & Medes.

Goga said:

No, there's only 4-5% of I in Turkey and Armenians. I in Turks and Armenians is just a geneflow. But there is 16-33% of I in Kurdistan. 20% of I is just to much for a nation of 40 million people to be just a geneflow + I is everywhere in Kurdistan, not just in one area. Sure Kurds are West Asians like Turks or Armenias, but Turks, Armenians, Kurds have all diferent ancestors.
Turks are from the Seljuks, Armenias are from the Urartu, while Kurds are from the Mitanni & Medes.

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If you're trying to sell me the "Haplogroup I comes from Medes", you fail, it's a gene wave from the Balkans, whether it's 16% or 3%, it does not change where it came from, if you had told me lineages like R1a1a, J2a, R2a, or L3, I would say you have a point, but I2 is super rare in South Central Asia, that's where the Medes AND the Persians come from, and that's also the place where most Iranian people originated (Scythians included according to Herodotus).

Cobol19 said:

If you're trying to sell me the "Haplogroup I comes from Medes", you fail, it's a gene wave from the Balkans, whether it's 16% or 3%, it does not change where it came from, if you had told me lineages like R1a1a, J2a, R2a, or L3, I would say you have a point, but I2 is super rare in South Central Asia, that's where the Medes AND the Persians come from, and that's also the place where most Iranian people originated (Scythians included according to Herodotus).

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How do you know that the Medes came from Central Asia? Are you sure about that? There's very much I in West Persia, Teheran, where Persians & Medes lived. In Iran live many Iranic folks.
Maybe is I in Kurdistan from the Mitanni or maybe from the so called Cimmerians. Many people think that all these folks were Iranic. So it doesn't matter where it's from. It's all Iranic.

According to me there're 3 types of Iranic folks. 1 type is Central Asian one. 1 type in West Asian. And 1 type is North Caucausian. R1a connect all these types, but the're also some differences among them. But the original Iranians came from West Asia, this is what I do believe!

Turks and Armenians are NOT Iranic.

Bodin said:

Tread speack only about J and G haplogrououp , and where did you found that maps? There has to be significant R1a1a M198 and some I P37 because of simple facts - there are also Russians

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1. I have already provided you the link to the Balanovsky's paper where you can find these maps and conclusions made on their analysis. It looks like you are not prone to read papers through. Try again: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...-caucasus.html

2. About Russians and I-P37. Not all Russians have considerable amounts of I-P37 but mainly those who live in historical Russian regions (regions of the first migration waves of Slavs in Russia). The closer to Ukrain and Belarus the more amount of I-P37 you can find but if you move further to the North and to the East from the historical Russian regions you can find much more I-253 than I-P37.

Goga said:

How do you know that the Medes came from Central Asia? Are you sure about that? There's very much I in West Persia, Teheran, where Persians & Medes lived. In Iran live many Iranic folks.

Maybe is I in Kurdistan from the Mitanni or maybe from the so called Cimmerians. Many people think that all these folks were Iranic. So it doesn't matter where it's from. It's all Iranic.

According to me there're 3 types of Iranic folks. 1 type is Central Asian one. 1 type in West Asian. And 1 type is North Caucausian. R1a connect all these types, but the're also some differences among them. But the original Iranians came from West Asia, this is what I do believe!

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There was no such thing as Iranian people in West Asia before 1500 BC, if you're referring to the Mitanni, their records indicate that they were Indo-Aryans (Similar to the Sanskrit folks that migrated to India), not Iranians, though even that is still debatable, but for the sake of whatever Indo-Iranian words were found, they were Indo-Aryan words.

As far as how I know where the Medes/Persian came from, before they were known as Medes or Persians, they were ancient Iranian tribes, the most leading theory on the homeland of the Iranian people is the BMAC (Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex), this falls around modern day Afghanistan/Uzbekistan/Turkmenistan/Tajikistan, not to mention that the name for this region during those times was "Aria", which is the title that these Medes and Persians used to call themselves, there was no such name in Ukraine/Russia, so if you think that's where they came from, you're wrong.

Turks and Armenians are NOT Iranic.

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Never said they were, and for the record, I never dismissed haplogroup I* being included among ancient Medes, I just said this haplogroup is not an original Iranic lineage, meaning it was incorporated into the Iranian population in West Asia and not come from their ancestral lands, because if this lineage was Iranic all along it would exist among Eastern Iranians too, but that's not the case.

Are you a Kurdish hater or what?

Mitanni were not Indo-Aryan. I think they were Iranic, but it's also possible that they were proto-Indo-Iranic. Ancestors of Iranics and Indo-Aryans. Mitanni were NOT Indo-Aryan = from India!

Goga said:

Are you a Kurdish hater or what?

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That was a stupid comment, where in any of my posts indicates that I'm a Kurdish hater? On the contrary, I always look forward for Kurdish DNA results, what I am is someone who is not biased, I'm interested in real facts and will tell like like how I see it.

Mitanni were not Indo-Aryan. I think they were Iranic, but it's also possible that they were proto-Indo-Iranic. Ancestors of Iranics and Indo-Aryans. Mitanni were NOT Indo-Aryan = from India!

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I never said they were from India, I said the evidence found indicates an Indo-Aryan connection, not an Iranian one, what is this evidence? Here you go:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/596061

Cobol19 said:

I never said they were from India, I said the evidence found indicates an Indo-Aryan connection, not an Iranian one, what is this evidence? Here you go:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/596061

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Of course there's. I believe that Aryans who invaded India were very much closely related to Aryan Mitanni.
But the thing is to find out where these Mitanni came from. Mitanni were one of the earliest proto-Iranics. And proto-Iranics where Indo-European folks, who were closely related to other proto-Indo-European folks.
So accroding to me, if you want to find the original homeland of the Mitanni. You must to find out where the proto-Indo-Europeans came from.
I think that the Mitanni who settled in the Mesopotamia were not far away from their proto-Indo-European URHEIMAT. Be it South Caucasus, be it North Caucasus, be it the Iranian plateau. It's all in West Asia. So according to me proto-IE folks were West Asian!

Goga said:

Of course there's. I believe that Aryans who invaded India were very much closely related to Aryan Mitanni.
But the thing is to find out where these Mitanni came from. Mitanni were one of the earliest proto-Iranic. And proto-Iranic where Indo-European folks, who were closely related to other proto-Indo-European folks.
So accroding to me, if you want to find the original homeland of the Mitanni. You must to find out where proto-Indo-European came from.
I think that the Mitanni who settled in the Mesopotamia were not far away from their proto-Indo-European URHEIMAT. Be it South Caucasus, be it North Caucasus, be it the Iranian plateau. It's all in West Asia. So according to me proto-IE folks were West Asian!

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You're mixing way too many different things here, first, the Proto-Indo-Europeans have nothing to do with the Mitanni besides the fact that they passed some sort of language down to them, mind you by the time the Mitanni have been speaking their Indo-Aryan language (If at all they spoke one), it would have already been way too different from the Proto-Indo-European, you also need to remember that around that same time-period, an even earlier Indo-European language was recorded that was not Indo-Iranian, which was the Anatolian branch (Hittite).

Since the diversity of ancient Indo-Iranian languages peak in South-Central Asia, it seems pretty logical to me that the people who spoke the Mitanni and Sanskrit languages arrived from this same place, those who spoke Sanskrit crossed the Indus and into India while the Mitanni crossed the Iranian plateau and into West Asia.

Cobol19 said:

You're mixing way too many different things here, first, the Proto-Indo-Europeans have nothing to do with the Mitanni besides the fact that they passed some sort of language down to them, mind you by the time the Mitanni have been speaking their Indo-Aryan language (If at all they spoke one), it would have already been way too different from the Proto-Indo-European, you also need to remember that around that same time-period, an even earlier Indo-European language was recorded that was not Indo-Iranian, which was the Anatolian branch (Hittite).

Since the diversity of ancient Indo-Iranian languages peak in South-Central Asia, it seems pretty logical to me that the people who spoke the Mitanni and Sanskrit languages arrived from this same place, those who spoke Sanskrit crossed the Indus and into India while the Mitanni crossed the Iranian plateau and into West Asia.

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What? Proto-Indo-Europeans have nothing to do with the Mitanni? I'm sory, but that's crazy.

Mitanni spoke proto Indo-Iranian language or even proto-Iranic language. Of course there are some similarities between Sanskrit and Mitanni, becasue 2 languages came directly from the same source.

If you say that Mitanni has nothing to do with proto-IE , than you can also say that Sanskrit has nothing to do with IE folks. Because Sanscrit is proto-Indo-Aryan.

I don't understand why don't you can accept that Kurds are Iranic and related to other Iranics and other Indo-Europeans, from Europe to Central Asia!

Somehow you tend to link Kurds only to Central Asians/India, what are your motives for that (agenda)?

I already explained very well what or who Medes were. I still dont understand how people insist on this Mede I2a Kurdish theory. In fact we cant be sure and it is only a theory. The I2a among Kurds could indeed be a geneflow from Balkan. I dont have to remind you Guys that beside Alan, Scythian, Cimmerian tripes also other existed. Another of them are the Karduchis from Gordyeme, Gordiane,Gorduene, Gordion in Southeast Anatolia which according to Strabo got its name from the Phrygian disgtrict of Gordyaea . And we all know that Phrygians originated from Balkans. This could also be a explain for I* among Kurds. However it is also possible that I* came with Cimmerians or Scythians of Media who settled in Kurdistan. Everything is possible and all of this theories are speculations for now.

Goga said:

How do you know that the Medes came from Central Asia? Are you sure about that? There's very much I in West Persia, Teheran, where Persians & Medes lived. In Iran live many Iranic folks.

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Teheran is a multicultural city. MANY Kurds or People with Kurdish origin live there. Surprisingly Teheran and Esfahan are the only cities where some I* was found. Surprisingly Esfahan was just 50 Years ago half Kurdish today still 1/5 of its population is Kurdish. Do you know the Mother of Benazir Buttho? She is Kurdish from Isfahan. She belongs to the Kurdish Isfahani Clan which was settled throughout Central Asia. In fact only Cities were there is a Kurdish presence showed some I*. In all other major Iranian cities I is very absent.

Goga said:

What? Proto-Indo-Europeans have nothing to do with the Mitanni? I'm sory, but that's crazy.

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Read what I said again, the meaning of it is that you're mixing time-periods, a better example of this is like comparing the modern English speakers to an the Anglo-Saxson speakers from 1000 years ago, while modern English does indeed come from Anglo-Saxon, the two languages are NOT the same, this is what Old English sounded like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyXDYp60BE

Do you understand? No.

Mitanni spoke proto Indo-Iranian language or even proto-Iranic language. Of course there are some similarities between Sanskrit and Mitanni, becasue 2 languages came directly from the same source.

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Proto-Indo-Iranian is also a different time-period, the Proto-Indo-Iranian is connected with the Andronovo culture, not Mitanni.

If you say that Mitanni has nothing to do with proto-IE , than you can also say that Sanskrit has nothing to do with IE folks. Because Sanscrit is proto-Indo-Aryan.

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Sanskrit clearly comes from Indo-Aryan, Mitanni (Based on whatever words were found), also shares this Indo-Aryan connection, which I should add, was mostly just the names of Gods that were worshiped by the Vedic Aryans (Sanskrit speakers), so in reality, there's no strong evidence on whether the Mitanni spoke an Indo-Iranian at all, but if they did, it would have been comparable to the Vedic Aryans that migrated to India, not the language of the Medes/Persians.

I don't understand why don't you can accept that Kurds are Iranic and related to other Iranics and other Indo-Europeans, from Europe to Central Asia!

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I accept the Kurds as an Iranian West Asian people, meaning the majority of their genes are native to West Asia but they carry some Indo-Iranian genes, if anything, I think the ancient Hurrians and other similar ancient West Asian populations probably played a bigger role in Kurdish DNA than the ancient Iranians, this has been proven by the autosomal DNA which shows mostly West Asian.

Somehow you tend to link Kurds only to Central Asians/India, what are your motives for that (agenda)?

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I don't try to link the Kurds with anything, but if you were to ask, the Kurds are closer to some of their non-Indo-European neighboring populations such as Turks, Assyrians, Lebanese etc than they are to actual Indo-Europeans such as the Russians or Ukrainians for example, this goes to show you that just because certain groups speak a certain language, it does not mean much in genetics.

Goga said:

Are you a Kurdish hater or what?

Mitanni were not Indo-Aryan. I think they were Iranic, but it's also possible that they were proto-Indo-Iranic. Ancestors of Iranics and Indo-Aryans. Mitanni were NOT Indo-Aryan = from India!

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Please calm down and behave yourself better. Sometimes you seem very paranoid. I dont know what the problem is, he insulted Kurds just because he was not with your opinion? The Mitannis belonged to the same wave of Aryans which migrated INTO India NOT out of India. This is only a wishful thinking of Indocentrist. The Mitanni scripts are as old as those from Sanskrit India. Mitanni and Sanskrit both probably belonged to the same wave but have gone different ways.

Alan said:

I already explained very well what or who Medes were. I still dont understand how people insist on this Mede I2a Kurdish theory. In fact we cant be sure and it is only a theory. The I2a among Kurds could indeed be a geneflow from Balkan. I dont have to remind you Guys that beside Alan, Scythian, Cimmerian tripes also other existed. Another of them are the Karduchis from Gordyeme, Gordiane,Gorduene, Gordion in Southeast Anatolia which according to Strabo got its name from the Phrygian disgtrict of Gordyaea . And we all know that Phrygians originated from Balkans. This could also be a explain for I* among Kurds. However it is also possible that I* came with Cimmerians or Scythians of Media who settled in Kurdistan. Everything is possible and all of this theories are speculations for now.

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You're right that anything is possible, but I'm in agreement with you that it's a gene wave from the Balkans, as you pointed out one example, there has been many cases of population movements from the Balkans to Anatolia.

The other thing is, for all we know, this number of haplogroup I* could be a lucky lineage (Which happens often believe it or not), what I mean is a man get's to have many children, and eventually their lineage grows strong in a culture.

Cobol19 said:

You're right that anything is possible, but I'm in agreement with you that it's a gene wave from the Balkans, as you pointed out one example, there has been many cases of population movements from the Balkans to Anatolia.

The other thing is, for all we know, this number of haplogroup I* could be a lucky lineage (Which happens often believe it or not), what I mean is a man get's to have many children, and eventually their lineage grows strong in a culture.

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This is also a possibility.

About the origin of Iranic tribes, I already explained very well what I do think about this. The Proto-Iranic Urheimat was probably in northern parts of Central Asia. However were did those People come from and how did they evolved. If we take out the very recent East Asian gene flow from this region, than it remain only the West Asian(ANI included) and North European component. What indicates a West Asian-North European fusion which created the Proto-Iranians.

I already explained this here.

the "North European" gene came most probably when the Iranic tribes which evolved from the Andronovo culture, which was a secession of the Yamna Culture. The Yamna culture itself evolved as a cross between the PIE European Maykop culture and native European hunters and gatherers. The Kurgan culture was based on Maykop culture thats why the Kurgans are also sometimes reffered as Maykop culture.

So when this Kurgan culture, which was based on Maykop and native hunters and gatherers expanded to the East and formed the Andronovo culture, the Aryan(Indo Iranic) tribes evolved. Those Aryan tribes belonged mainly to the West Asian and North European components. Those Aryan tribes mixed with the native Populations of the Regions they moved to. in Kurdish case it was the Gutians/Phrygians/Hurrians for example. Thats why you find among Kurds more North European component than among non partly Iranic tribes(and even Iranians)

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Alan said:

This is also a possibility.

About the origin of Iranic tribes, I already explained very well what I do think about this. The Proto-Iranic Urheimat was most probably in northern parts of Central Asia. However were did those People come from and how did they evolved.

I already explained this here.

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I think we pretty much agree on the bigger picture, I too believe the Indo-Europeans lived around the Yamna Culture which prior to that, perhaps a clan of men dominated by R1a1a arrived from Anatolia through the Caucasus (In this case, the PIE being the Maykop culture as you suggested), from there the Andronovo folks developed into Proto-Indo-Iranian, and by interaction with the BMAC natives the Indo-Iranians developed, those who separated earlier and migrated down to India became the Indo-Aryans (Which some of them may have migrated to West Asia in the form of Mitanni), later on from the same area the Iranian expansions take place all over, to West Asia in the form of Medes/Persians (Later on Parthians), and to other parts such as the Eurasian steppes, Central Asia, Siberia, and even West Asia in the form of Scythians, also other Iranian groups that remained around the homeland were Sogdians, Bactrians etc.