Where did E-V13 originate ?

Progon said:

Aspurg will not like this.

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Great find Progon.
So this archaeological evidence would imply a Western Balkan and or Panonian plain origin with a spread in the direction of Thrace? Or did I misunderstand?

Archetype0ne said:

Great find Progon.
So this archaeological evidence would imply a Western Balkan and or Panonian plain origin with a spread in the direction of Thrace? Or did I misunderstand?

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Probably yes. Not only toward Thrace but toward Greece as well: http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576_0x002debf4.pdf

The tumuli with inurned cremations in theArgolid seem to be connected to the Western Balkans. Therewas no direct or continuous development that led directlyfrom the occasional LH IIIC cremation burials to cremation as the almost exclusively practiced type of burial inAttica and Euboea during the Early Iron Age. Cremationsduring the LH IIIC period and during the Early Iron Ageare two separate phenomena, each having a different cultural and social background.Cremation was a very rare burial practice throughoutthe entire Aegean Bronze Age. Generally, this also appliesto the 12th century BC, the time after the destruction of theMycenaean palaces that was accompanied by the completedissolution of the palatial political and economic system.This period is referred to as LH (Late Helladic) IIIC on theGreek mainland and LM (Late Minoan) IIIC on the islandof Crete.However, some considerable changes occurred in the12th century BC with regards to cremation burials. Therewere far more cemeteries with a few cremation burials inthis period than in the preceding palatial era of the Mycenaean culture (LH IIIA–LH IIIB: ca. 1400–1200 BC).

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Let's see, we might get a complex picture.

And, add it that it looks like Slavs initially mixed with natives in Pannonia and then settled Thrace (confirmed by Davidski), and autosomally they were already like modern Serbs/Romanians mixing with natives in Thrace who were more Mycenean-like. That's why we see weird subclades popping all over around the places.

Progon said:

Aspurg will not like this.

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Why would I have problems with Carpathian connections, this is something in Hallstat frame it seems. Also below:

One late Iron Age pit yields another very specific object — a fibula fragment of the
so-called Posamenteriefibeln type. These fibulae are the most popular jewellery in the
Carpatho-Danubian region in the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age. Their distribution
area includes Hungary, Slovakia and West Romania and the neighbouring eastern
and southern regions. In the territories south of the Danube they are very rare and
mostly fragmented.

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Ofc not all of this comes through people but also contacts.. I saw this paper long time ago, and I tried to bring it in some exact context, but it was a bit hard at that time..

As in the old study E-Z1919 was found there already, some people were saying as it was a pit burial "ah hg E slave was thrown in a pit, wasn't a rich burial", which was ridiculous as that was the dominant/common cultural custom in the area..

Progon. You failed to stress the most important part...

Metal objects are rare in the Svilengrad pit complex. Among them figures an interesting
iron instrument classified as a trunnion axe. Its shape allows its identification as
a chisel of type III 1 C (Wesse). The distribution of this type is dated the period
between the eleventh and seventh/sixth century BC and encompasses the western
Balkans and the Carpathian basin; single finds are known from Slovenia and Middle
Dnepr region.33 The finds of iron trunnion axes/chisels in Bulgarian territory are
limited and mainly without clear provenance. Most of them were found in North
Bulgaria. Only three samples are known south of the Haemus Mountains: from
Omarchevo, Ada tepe and Dositeevo.34 The Svilengrad find is the southernmost. Its
presence here is not unexpected as long as the cultural contacts from Asia Minor
through the Balkans westwards were conducted not only by sea but also by land.35

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Another source

Thus, while type II of the trunnion axe originated in Asia Minor and Crete , type III , or at least its oldest sub - type , IIIa had its real home in Syria and Palestine , where it seems to have been in use from before 1600 to about 1000 B . C . Type IMO

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This is of Anatolian and Middle Eastern origin.. Not relevant to E-V13 in any case.. Likely relevant to some other hg..

Either we came during LBA with this event or we were hiding in the Pindus Mountains all the time sneaking the R1b-s/R1a-s/J-s by sending scouts and at the right moment we expanded.

Etruscan = J L283? Very funny

L283 is very low or non existant in historically held Etruscan regions

Anyway, this discussion is crazy. What I want to know is which is confirmed OLDER in balkans so far from E-V13, J2b L283 & R1b Z2103

Also, is R1b Z2103 strong in Bulgaria/Romania?

Aspurg said:

You clearly haven't got a clue what you're talking about. E-V13 expansion happened in Early Bronze Age. Vinca culture ended in 4200 BC.. That's a 1300 year gap. How dumb you have to be not to comprehend that??

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Wow wow wow, how dumb am I? ADMINISTRATOR please BAN this individual, no one has the right here to call someone dumb, especially when I argue that it is a supposition.

Dude you clearly have some kind of a problem, I am also not talking about huge expansions here, but small numbers, if we found 6000 BC e-v13 in Spain other in Split Croatia 5485 BC then what is wrong having this group in Vinca 4000 BC?
Again my supposition 'I never said E-V13 was the main carrier of the neolithic revolution, was talking about a later time or in smaller numbers, so in one word they came from far north Africa through Iberia Itali Greece, in around 6000 BC, gathered more in around Vinca, of course not as majority but with other G2, H2, then after 5000 BC it spread more in south Balkans, so this is pre ancient Greece as we know it started from 3000 BC, so by that time the so called Pelasgic people could have carried around 40% of this area of south east Balkans including central north Balkans, thats why maybe this region still have the highest % of E-V13, of course this is all supposition, and we need more ancient samples in this region.'

Aspurg said:

I read it, E-L618 was a Cardial lineage it arrived from the Levant most likely, from PPNB, there is no evidence it arrived from North Africa directly.

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And what evidence do you have it came from Levant? or it is as you say most likely!

Aspurg said:

E-V13 has nothing to do with G2a. G2a receded at the same time E-V13 exploded. There is so much R1a in India.. So R1a must originate in India too..

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Again, who said G2a has to do with E-V13? I dont think there was only G2a or even H2 at that time, we only have very very few samples, again if we have E-V13 in Spain 6000 BC then why not in Vinca 4000 BC!

Aspurg said:

Some cognitive issues? You quote citation where it says there are three tested and you mention two tested. By the same "logic" we require thousands of samples from a single site. You you the same logic as Serbian autochtonists who claim that Iron Gates require sample of thousands of tested to be sure I2a Din is not there.. For the start there aren't that many skeletons..

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Again, looks like you do have some problem with anyone supposing somthing else you argue, chill out dude, In a 2017 genetic study published in Nature, the remains of six individuals ascribed to the Vinča culture was analyzed. Of the three samples of Y-DNA extracted, one belonged to G2a2b2a1a, one belonged to G2a2a, and one belonged to H2.

I SAID You can never conclude or generalize that all Vincas were G2a from only 2 samples G2a found, the other one is H2, lol chill out :grin:

Aspurg said:

Instead you choose to take this old path of "E-V13 SSA slaves", well I explained it to you it's no SSA and it's no slaves either. E-V13 used tumulii burial from early on, and it doesn't matter what was the exact cultural affinity.

Get off your high horse "I'm R1b look at me I'm so special lol", so you seem to have problem with V13 being part of some "dominator" group. Well, continue having this problem..

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I never took the old path nor slaves, I was actually giving higher point to E-V13, again lol you seem to take my supposions in negative way and all wrong, I said ''So I think my suposition might have some relevance, that Pelasgic people (maybe around 50% E-V13) might have migrated from Vinca (and not only, so too from Dalmatia, Hungary, south Germany, maybe even in very small groups from Levant also) to more south eastern Balkans around 5000 BC, before ancient Greece, at this time yes we might have had some G2 and H2, maybe very few R1b and J2, then maybe with Ancient Greece there was a flood of migration, and maybe some more soffisticated individuals like R1b (sophisticated I mean maybe more colonist alike and who brought EI) who came from Yamnaya, I really dont see at 5000 BC as a majority in this area with R1b or J2, I think majority was G2, H2 and E-V13, only with the flood of Ancient Greece at 3000 BC we see a lot of R1b and maybe some J2.''

So see, even if I am R1b I suppose that E-V13 is more old in the balkans area and in today Europe

Aspurg said:

How were R1b's more sophisticated in any way compared to EEF's??

Their culture is considered by the archaeologists to have been at the lower level than the Neolithic Europe..

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Sophisticated I mean maybe more colonist alike and who might have brought IE, so again chill dude :grin:

this branch is very interesting
now there is a new algerian add to the sardinian
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V1039/
i think it is the same branch that was found in bronze age sardinia and bell beeker bronze age iberia

Here's your Posušje culture proof from my old post here. From the footnotes of authors of the "The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe" themselves. The Veliki Vanik find was among the newer Litzenian ware sites that were being excavated. Anyone with any knowledge on the matter knows this ware is ultra-typical for Posušje culture and ultra-untypical for Cetina culture which basically already ended at the time Vanik find is dated.

And of course it is known these two cultures were different by origin despite being neighbors for a few centuries at least.. And I'm "all over the place".. Look who's talking..

Footnote no. 28 from "The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe" refers to the same thing as footnote no. 16 from "Majića gradina (drinovci) - novo nalazište licenske keramike u Hercegovini", only that footnote 16 is also referencing plenty of other similar finds, and as no. 1 Posuška kultura ofc.. So the authors of "The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe" do say actually that Veliki Vanik find is a Posušje culture find...

J2b2 sample found at Veliki Vanik is identifiable archaeologically, and that should be the starting point in deliberating about it's origins.

"The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe"
Radiocarbon dates and preserved artifacts (hair ornament made of coiled copper
wire and fragments of pottery) date these burials to the Early/Middle Bronze Age.28
28
Mucić, K. & Kovačević Bokarica, N. Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine
na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja. In: Arheološka istraživanja na trasi
autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini (ed M Tomasović) 125-212 (Gradski muzej Makarska,
2011).


Majića gradina (drinovci) - novo nalazište licenske keramike u Hercegovini (new site of litzen ware in Herzegovina)

https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/247012
"nego se konvencionalno takva vrsta nalaza, bilo da su oni ukrašeni otiskivanjem dvonitne uzice ili otkane tkanice/vrpce, često deklarira kao licenska.16"

16 Usp. B. Čović, "Posuška kultura", 70, 75, 77-78, T. VIII, 5, T. X, 5, 4; Marinko Tomasović, "Arheološka topografija lijeve strane donjeg toka Cetine", u: Jacqueline Balen - Hrvoje Potrebica (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja u cetinskoj krajini, Izdanja Hrvatskoga arheološkog društva, vol. 27, Zagreb, 2011., T. I, 5-6; Vedran Katavić - Ana Sunko Katavić - Andrea Devlahović, "Istraživanje grobnog tumula, dviju vrtača, gradine i gradinice u Gornjim Rašćanima kod Vrgorca", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 46, kat. jed. 7; Konstanta Mucić - Nela Kovačević Bokarica, "Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 130, kat. jed. 2; B. Marijanović, nav. dj., str. 105, T. LXXXV, 5; T. LXXXVI, 1,2; Ivan Šuta, "Korištenje vrtača u prapovijesti Dalmacije", u: Tusculum, 6, Solin, 2013., str. 11-12, sl. 6.

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Progon said:

I explained before that Cetina cannot be E-V13, Cardial farmer dated ~7500 YBP from Croatia still didn't have the E-V13 mutation, yet the Spanish 500 years latter did. So, approximately somewhere along the Alpine region E-V13 arose. If Cetina is the source of E-V13 we should see older and more basal E-V13 clades among Croatians/Herzegovinians, yet we don't. We see it among Germans and some old clades among Italians frequently.

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Maybe you "explained" it to yourself.. That was just one find, you are taking too literally scarce finds. That is what happens when these online rookies take one find without an archaeological context and as the time goes by and the sample increases they jump from one theory to the other as the sample increases.. Test all those cultures related to Dalmatian Cardial, get some more samples and you will get V13+ samples. Kakanj, Butmir etc.. V13+ originated in Dalmatia, not in Spain. That "Spanish guy" arrived to there from the East.


E-V13 is EBA. Cetina had without any doubt the indigenous Neolithic Cardial element which managed to survive for thousands of years. Cetina in proto-Cetina phase had contact with Yamnaya nomads. These nomads could have taken the E-CTS1273 literally anywhere and they did.. Which does explain both the diversity of PH1246, Cetina like diversity and not so Cetina like diversity of other V13 clades.


And last but not least. Only one single one European Neolithic culture worshipped skulls in the manner Natufians (E-M35) did. While E-M78 wasn't found in Natufians, sister clade to E-L618 E-V22 is clearly levantian too and E-M78 was found in PPNB.


Dalmatian and related Cardials in 6000 BC, 5000 BC, 4000 BC, 3000 BC worshiped skulls, and guess what Cetina culture 2000 BC is still worshiping skulls (some evidence backs this up). No other European Neolithic culture did that. Maybe because that was the only place where Natufian descendants dominated? Plus for these skull worship was obviously the most important thing for them persisting for so long after other elements of the culture had completely changed.. That is the most literal proof from our Natufian forefathers that E-V13 = Cetina..

Just copying and pasting here.

Add the samples from Lengyel, Sopot which are E-L618 and negative for E-V13, Sopot and Lengyel are close to Dalmatia and they are dated 4800 B.C.

The actual Spanish E-V13 is dated 5000 B.C. Do the math, it's highly unlikely it arose there.

From RafC "Argonauts of the West Balkans? Origins, spread and distribution of Haplogroup E-V13"

More or less contemporary with the Cetina phenomenon two small, probably related Post-
Vucedol groups were present on the Central Balkans: Bubanj-Hum III in eastern Serbia and the
West of Bulgaria, and Armenochori in Macedonia.

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Near the heart of the previous Vucedol culture
the Vinkovci group flourished, while in Serbia Bubanj Hum III is known. In Dalmatia and its
hinterland the so called Cetina group existed.

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Even more similar was the Belotić-bela Crkva from the Western Serbia.

Eine gleichspate, jedoch verschiedene Welle nordpintischen Ursprung wird durch die Grabhugel von Verbitza in Oltenien und jeneder Gruppe Belotić - Bela Crkva in Westserbien. Auf Grund der Tonware gehören beide einem grossen Komplex der frühen Bronzezeit im karpathisch - balkanischen Raum ( zusammen mit , beispielsweise Glina III – Schneckenberg , Maros , Nagyrev , Vinkovci , Somogyvar , Bubanj - Hum III , Armenochori ) .

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konstatovana je i u Maliq I, u odnosu Maliq II ( eneolit u dva stratuma ) i Maliq III a grupe ranog bronzanog doba koja je najuže vezana sa grupom Armenochori

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Also sie sind alles verknüpft. And you see Maliq IIIa in Albania is very closely related to Armenochori. Which is why one can expect E-V13 in EBA Albania if they are going to test Maliq IIIa.

Once these cultures are taken into context of EBA, this is literally what corresponds to the E-V13 (Cetina included for PH1246).

Our ancestor was a man called Proteus. Great warrior he was. He fought for the hand of Lucrezia the daughter of King of Rutulis. Lucrecia bore him 2 sons E-V13 Z5017 and E-V13 Z5018. The first was your ancestor and the second was mine.

Progon said:

Our ancestor was a man called Proteus. Great warrior he was. He fought for the hand of Lucrezia the daughter of King of Rutulis. Lucrecia bore him 2 sons E-V13 Z5017 and E-V13 Z5018. The first was your ancestor and the second was mine.

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Well Z5018 although all share only one SNP per SNP age is actually MBA (Z5018 are unable to produce that many SNP's below Z5018 level to reach 4000 ybp) , and its spread is very large.

Z5017 is interesting. There are some Z5017 clades not at YFull that are very interesting:
E-Z5017>FT350463 Polish and Irish share only 2 SNP's so their TMRCA is over 4000 ybp.

E-Z5017>BY4642 only 2 SNP's, TMRCA over 4000 ybp
E-Z5017>BY4642>BY40492 Scotland, Ireland
E-Z5017>BY4642>Z38334, TMRCA should be around 3000 ybp, Norway, Russia, Sweden, Denmark. All these Scandinavians and Russian seem 3000 years apart..

Its clear these have nothing to do with the Roman legionaries.

I see Aspar has a new distant cousin. Russian E-Y16729 , Y16733- (SNP Pack). He is 10/37 with Aspar, 11/37 with Bulgarian. Might be distantly related to Germans dys393=12, but he is lso 11/37 with them.
Actually I can see he is most likely distantly related to an Italian (N.Italy). 9/37 but shares 3 slow STR's, 393=12, 607=13, 442=12.. probably LBA range at least..

Albanian Berisha-Sopi are descendants of Odrysian Prince called Berisades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berisades

After he died, his brother Cersobleptes wanted to usurpe the throne and declared war on his brothers children. One of his sons survived and fled to Illyria becoming the eponymous ancestor of Berishas/Sopi.

Progon said:

Albanian Berisha-Sopi are descendants of Odrysian Prince called Berisades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berisades

After he died, his brother Cersobleptes wanted to usurpe the throne and declared war on his brothers children. One of his sons survived and fled to Illyria becoming the eponymous ancestor of Berishas/Sopi.

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Progon do you know which specific sites in Maliq the samples are from? Which complex?

Btw, I am like 99% sure that some of these posts are sarcastic, but just due to that 1% I will ask... you're engaging in satire aren't you? :embarassed:

Archetype0ne said:

Progon do you know which specific sites in Maliq the samples are from? Which complex?

Btw, I am like 99% sure that some of these posts are sarcastic, but just due to that 1% I will ask... you're engaging in satire aren't you? :embarassed:

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All i know is that samples from Maliq will be tested, i think it's from EBA period. This Reich looks like will rewrite world history with his upcoming paper. It will blow our mind.

And, yes i am joking a bit with those two posts.

Progon said:

All i know is that samples from Maliq will be tested, i think it's from EBA period. This Reich looks like will rewrite world history with his upcoming paper. It will blow our mind.

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I mean. I can not lie and say I have followed his publications in the past (except the ones posted on forums), or that I really followed genetic-archaeology publications attentively for that matter. But ~500 samples of that age, I do not think I have come across any paper of that scope/magnitude...