How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

FrankN said:

I don't think the Slavs are responsible for bringing I2a-Din to the Balkans:

1. Most importantly, however, if I2a-Din was already present around the Morava (March - the Austro-Slovakian, not the one in today's Serbia), you don't need the Slavs to explain I2a-Din presence on the Balkans. I find it strange that on 23 pages so far nobody has yet been discussing the Heruli

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Hi Frank; This is a really interesting comment, one that I would love to learn more about. Where did you source this information, or is it simply well understood?
Thanks, K

Kurgan said:

[/LIST]

Hi Frank; This is a really interesting comment, one that I would love to learn more about. Where did you source this information, or is it simply well understood?
Thanks, K

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I think its a possibility that Vlahs are also responsible for I2a in Ballkans. Vlahs are originally Romanians, and the homeland of South Slavs is the area between Western Ukraine, South Poland, Moldavia. On the way to Ballkans Slavs spend some centuries in Romanian lands exchanging their genes. Since the diversity of I2a is greater in the area mentioned means that Moldova, Ucraina, Poland is the source of I2a. Southern Albania where I live has a I2a hot spot which also has many Vlah towns.

albanopolis said:

I think its a possibility that Vlahs are also responsible for I2a in Ballkans. Vlahs are originally Romanians, and the homeland of South Slavs is the area between Western Ukraine, South Poland, Moldavia. On the way to Ballkans Slavs spend some centuries in Romanian lands exchanging their genes. Since the diversity of I2a is greater in the area mentioned means that Moldova, Ucraina, Poland is the source of I2a. Southern Albania where I live has a I2a hot spot which also has many Vlah towns.

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Vlachs are original Roman speaking population of Balkans, same as Romanians, but they are not necessarily the same population or same origin. There are different groups of Vlachs with different genetic makeup around Balkans. Romanian country and nationality is a fairly new concept.

Kurgan said:

[/LIST]

Hi Frank; This is a really interesting comment, one that I would love to learn more about. Where did you source this information, or is it simply well understood?
Thanks, K

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I have in the meantime looked a bit more into the Heruli, and have come to conclude that they are a rather unlikely candidate for spreading I2a-Din, since the Herulian colony around Singidunum (Belgrade) probably didn't extend into Central Bosnia and Herzegovina, but instead covered the part of Serbia that is rather poor in I2a but comparatively rich in I1.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30256-Serb-with-I1?p=436018&viewfull=1#post436018

The general trail from Central Sweden via Gotland, Vistula and Dnieper to the Black Sea (or vice versa) is well documented as trade route during Bronze, Iron and Viking ages, and has been followed by Goths, Heruli and other East Germanic people. This may have brought quite a lot of I2a from Sweden/ Gotland (where it was the dominating Mesolithic haplogroup) to the NW Black Sea. Or, I2 originated from a Black Sea refuge, which I personally deem quite likely to have existed, though any traces of it will now be covered by some 30-60m of water. In this case, they would have colonised Eastern & Northern Europe by following these rivers up to the Baltic Sea, and partly have returned along the same routes a few millennia later.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30045-Bronze-age-trade-networks

Your "shared ancestry" list was actually the first time I have become aware of a possible relation between I2a and the Caucasus. Maciamo's list of yDNA per country shows reasonable, though not high shares of I2 among Tartars and Ossetians (5-6%), i.e. the non-Slavs in the region. There is also an interesting thread about I2c, which seems to be strongly represented among the traditional Georgian and Armenian nobility.

FrankN said:

I have in the meantime looked a bit more into the Heruli, and have come to conclude that they are a rather unlikely candidate for spreading I2a-Din, since the Herulian colony around Singidunum (Belgrade) probably didn't extend into Central Bosnia and Herzegovina, but instead covered the part of Serbia that is rather poor in I2a but comparatively rich in I1.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30256-Serb-with-I1?p=436018&viewfull=1#post436018

The general trail from Central Sweden via Gotland, Vistula and Dnieper to the Black Sea (or vice versa) is well documented as trade route during Bronze, Iron and Viking ages, and has been followed by Goths, Heruli and other East Germanic people. This may have brought quite a lot of I2a from Sweden/ Gotland (where it was the dominating Mesolithic haplogroup) to the NW Black Sea. Or, I2 originated from a Black Sea refuge, which I personally deem quite likely to have existed, though any traces of it will now be covered by some 30-60m of water. In this case, they would have colonised Eastern & Northern Europe by following these rivers up to the Baltic Sea, and partly have returned along the same routes a few millennia later.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30045-Bronze-age-trade-networks

Your "shared ancestry" list was actually the first time I have become aware of a possible relation between I2a and the Caucasus. Maciamo's list of yDNA per country shows reasonable, though not high shares of I2 among Tartars and Ossetians (5-6%), i.e. the non-Slavs in the region. There is also an interesting thread about I2c, which seems to be strongly represented among the traditional Georgian and Armenian nobility.

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I2 in bosnia was either the Cimmerians circa 700BC , who where chaesed out of the crimea area with 1 group going to cappodacia in Anatolia and the other to Pannonia and then into bosnia
...or....
the bastanae who sent 90000 men women and children to help the Macedonians under Philip , IIRC .............none went home, but they tried to invade modern Bosnia on their own after the Macedonians did not need them anymore
Philip had been goaded beyond endurance by the incessant and devastating raiding of the Dardani, a warlike Thraco-Illyrian^[49] tribe on his northern border, which his treaty-limited army was too small to counter effectively. Counting on the Bastarnae, with whom he had forged friendly relations in earlier times, he plotted a strategy to deal with the Dardani and then to regain his lost territories in Greece and his political independence. First, he would unleash the Bastarnae against the Dardani. After the latter had been crushed, Philip planned to settle Bastarnae families in Dardania (southern Kosovo/Skopje region), to ensure that the region was permanently subdued.

albanopolis said:

I think its a possibility that Vlahs are also responsible for I2a in Ballkans. Vlahs are originally Romanians, and the homeland of South Slavs is the area between Western Ukraine, South Poland, Moldavia. On the way to Ballkans Slavs spend some centuries in Romanian lands exchanging their genes. Since the diversity of I2a is greater in the area mentioned means that Moldova, Ucraina, Poland is the source of I2a. Southern Albania where I live has a I2a hot spot which also has many Vlah towns.

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The Cumans who remained east and south of the Carpathian Mountains established a county named Cumania, which was a strong military base in an area consisting parts of Moldavia and Wallachia.^[57] The Hungarian kings claimed supremacy over some areas of Cumania — among the nine titles of the Hungarian kings of the Árpád and Anjou dynasties were rex Cumaniae. The Cuman influence in Wallachia and Moldavia was very strong, according to some historians who claim that the earliest Wallachian rulers bore Cuman names (e.g., Tihomir and Bassarab).^[58] The Cumans played a crucial role in the formation of Wallachia at the end of the 14th century; many of the first Romanian nobleman were of Cuman descent.^[22] The toponymy of the most densely populated regions of Romanian settlement shows strong evidence of Cuman placenames.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumans

http://www.academia.edu/4459183/Cuman_People

FrankN said:

I have in the meantime looked a bit more into the Heruli, and have come to conclude that they are a rather unlikely candidate for spreading I2a-Din, since the Herulian colony around Singidunum (Belgrade) probably didn't extend into Central Bosnia and Herzegovina, but instead covered the part of Serbia that is rather poor in I2a but comparatively rich in I1.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30256-Serb-with-I1?p=436018&viewfull=1#post436018

The general trail from Central Sweden via Gotland, Vistula and Dnieper to the Black Sea (or vice versa) is well documented as trade route during Bronze, Iron and Viking ages, and has been followed by Goths, Heruli and other East Germanic people. This may have brought quite a lot of I2a from Sweden/ Gotland (where it was the dominating Mesolithic haplogroup) to the NW Black Sea. Or, I2 originated from a Black Sea refuge, which I personally deem quite likely to have existed, though any traces of it will now be covered by some 30-60m of water. In this case, they would have colonised Eastern & Northern Europe by following these rivers up to the Baltic Sea, and partly have returned along the same routes a few millennia later.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30045-Bronze-age-trade-networks

Your "shared ancestry" list was actually the first time I have become aware of a possible relation between I2a and the Caucasus. Maciamo's list of yDNA per country shows reasonable, though not high shares of I2 among Tartars and Ossetians (5-6%), i.e. the non-Slavs in the region. There is also an interesting thread about I2c, which seems to be strongly represented among the traditional Georgian and Armenian nobility.

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After 2 years of reading on this forum, and still blown away by the complexity of the various hypotheses put forward by a number of articulate members (including yourself), I am also convinced I2 originated somewhere along the Black Sea refuge... but that could be northwest, north, or northeast into Caucasus territory.

The general "trail" from Sweden via Gotland, Vistula River and Dnieper River to the Black Sea (and vice versa) seems to be a logical and well-grounded explanation for the flow of I2a into northern, central and eastern Europe, and further southeast into the Caucasus.

This also fits with Sparkey's recent comments to me regarding looking at the closest relatives of I2a-Din, and this includes the ANCIENT samples from Sweden:

"that's not a good assumption. Z16971 is very young (think historical period) and on a branch of I2 associated with Eastern European expansions, not Caucasian expansions. That means that the Caucasians who carry it are likely Slavs on their paternal line. Rather, you'll need to look at the distributions of the closest relatives of I2a-Din, which turn out to be I2a-Disles, I2a-Isles, and the ancient samples from Sweden and Luxembourg. The first two are largely northwestern European clades, and the ancient samples, of course, are from northwest of where your clade is now distributed. That means that your group is the geographic outlier, indicating that at some point, the ancestral carrier lived in western or central Europe. Does that make the Franco-Iberian refuge a better guess than the Black Sea refuge? I think so. But I admit we don't have proof of LGM locations yet."



Did the Morava River play a similar role in trade? You made an ealier comment that I2a-Din has been long established in western Slovakia and perhaps this is due, in part, to proximity to the Morava River and it's possible long established trade network, as well as the fact that if offered a convenient migratory route from which I2a could have flowed. I admit this is of personal interest to me as a very long line of my paternal relatives, at least that I can trace, come from western Slovakia, including Gajary, which is located on the Morava River. Gajary was established as a border crossing to Austria on the Morava River.

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Also; please, tell me more about this map:

LeBrok said:

Vlachs are original Roman speaking population of Balkans, same as Romanians, but they are not necessarily the same population or same origin. There are different groups of Vlachs with different genetic makeup around Balkans. Romanian country and nationality is a fairly new concept.

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The main theory about Vlahs is that they originate to the area of Vlahia in southern Romania and north of Bulgaria. But you are also right when you say that they are Romanized Balkan people. An internationally recognized Albanian linguist (Eqerem Cabej) was pushing the possibility that they could be romanised Illyrians.
But the first one has the most support. In albanian language we call them Coban (shepards), so dowe call Romanians.

Çoban is a Turkish name meaning shepherd.
Albanians use their own nicknames to refer to the Aromanians, such as Vllah/Vlleh; also used is choban (derived from the Albanian word Çobenj; Çoban meaning pastoral mountain folk and shepherd).

The main theory about Vlahs is that they originate to the area of Vlahia in southern Romania and north of Bulgaria.

The origin of the Romanians has been for centuries subject to scholarly debate, often driven by political bias. Two basic theories can be differentiated; one theory posits Daco-Romanian continuity and the other is an immigrationist theory, but interim views also exist. Scholars of the first school argue that the Romanians are mainly descended from the Daco-Romans, a people emerging through the cohabitation of the native Dacians and the Latin-speaking Roman colonists in the Roman province of Dacia north of the river Danube. Accordingly, they suggest that a significant part of the territory of modern Romania has continuously been inhabited by the Romanians' ancestors. Followers of the opposite view argue that the Romanians' ethnogenesis commenced in Moesia and other provinces south of the Danube. Consequently, they propose a northward migration of the Romanians across the river.

The name "România" as common homeland of the Romanians is documented in the early 19th century.^[

Kurgan said:

Did the Morava River play a similar role in trade? You made an ealier comment that I2a-Din has been long established in western Slovakia and perhaps this is due, in part, to proximity to the Morava River and it's possible long established trade network, as well as the fact that if offered a convenient migratory route from which I2a could have flowed. I admit this is of personal interest to me as a very long line of my paternal relatives, at least that I can trace, come from western Slovakia, including Gajary, which is located on the Morava River. Gajary was established as a border crossing to Austria on the Morava River.

***

Also; please, tell me more about this map:

Click to expand...

I assume you mean the Moravian, not the Serbian Morava, correct? That Morava has been the classical connection between the Danube and the Northern European plain, either via the Moravian Gate to the upper Odra/Oder, or from some subsidiaries over rather low hills to the upper Elbe and the Vltava/Moldau, respectively. Think Belgrade - Budapest - Bratislava - Brno - Praha - Dresden - Berlin/Leipzig - Hamburg (->London/Copenhagen).
There is hardly a connection that has been more important in European pre-history than this one. It starts with the 6th millennium BC spread of the LBK early farmers, continues with the advance of metallurgy from the Vinca Culture (Danube-Tisza region) into Bohemia, Silesia, Eastern Germany and Scandinavia, and is (as I see it, others will disagree) also the most likely entry point of Indo-Europeans (Baden culture) into north-central Europe. In the opposite direction, it was among others used by the Lombards and Marcomanni in their escape from the Roman conquest attempt around 10 BC, which, ultimately and ironically, resulted in the fall of the West Roman empire half a millennium after Rome had displaced the Lombards from their homeland on the lower Elbe. It was also the entrance route of Huns, Avars and Magyars into the Pannonian Basin, and the route along which the Western Balkans became (at least linguistically) slavicised. Oh, I forgot the Celtic Boji, which took their home in Bo(i)hemia, established a secondary capital in Bratislava, and most likely founded Olomouc (which is clearly a Celtic town name).

The map displays the Roman-age amber route as documented in the Tabula Peutingeriana, re-establishment of which was the main economic goal of the short-lived 5th century AD Herulian kingdom. The relevance of this road becomes apparent from the fact that the Roman capital of the province of Pannonia was neither Aquincum (Budapest), nor Vindobona (Vienna), but Carnuntum, directly opposite of the confluence of Morava and Danube.

Did I state that I2a-Din was long established in Western Slovakia? I actually don't recall that. I had made a comment that Obotrites (people from the upper Odra) settled both Eastern Holstein and parts of Serbia, and it is rather unlikely that the southern wave was full of I2a-Din, while it was virtually absent from the northern wave. As the most convenient route from the upper Odra to the middle Danube, especially when you are travelling with family and children, leads along the Morava, this implies that I2a-Din probably also didn't get there with the Obotrites. But there are dozens of other possibilities how I2a-Din could have come to Western Slovakia, some of which could have occurred long before the Slavic migrations, some others (Huns, Goths, Gepids) rather contemporary with that migration, some (Magyars) even afterwards. The area has always been a major transit corridor and melting pot.

gyms said:

Çoban is a Turkish name meaning shepherd.
Albanians use their own nicknames to refer to the Aromanians, such as Vllah/Vlleh; also used is choban (derived from the Albanian word Çobenj; Çoban meaning pastoral mountain folk and shepherd).

The main theory about Vlahs is that they originate to the area of Vlahia in southern Romania and north of Bulgaria.

The origin of the Romanians has been for centuries subject to scholarly debate, often driven by political bias. Two basic theories can be differentiated; one theory posits Daco-Romanian continuity and the other is an immigrationist theory, but interim views also exist. Scholars of the first school argue that the Romanians are mainly descended from the Daco-Romans, a people emerging through the cohabitation of the native Dacians and the Latin-speaking Roman colonists in the Roman province of Dacia north of the river Danube. Accordingly, they suggest that a significant part of the territory of modern Romania has continuously been inhabited by the Romanians' ancestors. Followers of the opposite view argue that the Romanians' ethnogenesis commenced in Moesia and other provinces south of the Danube. Consequently, they propose a northward migration of the Romanians across the river.

The name "România" as common homeland of the Romanians is documented in the early 19th century.^[

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Yep! You are right! Coban is a Turkish word but was adapted by Albanians. Albanian word for Coban is "Bari".
I also agree with what you are saying about their early origin. My point is that the area they inhabit is a hotspot for haplogroup i2a. Slavs and Romanians lived side by side during the period that south Slavs made it to Balkans. Romanian Dna shows heavy presence of Slavic genes among their population. So the Vlahs could be contributers to I2a presence in Ballkans.

albanopolis said:

Yep! You are right! Coban is a Turkish word but was adapted by Albanians. Albanian word for Coban is "Bari".
I also agree with what you are saying about their early origin. My point is that the area they inhabit is a hotspot for haplogroup i2a. Slavs and Romanians lived side by side during the period that south Slavs made it to Balkans. Romanian Dna shows heavy presence of Slavic genes among their population. So the Vlahs could be contributers to I2a presence in Ballkans.

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it's funny now a lot of these Aromanians claim to be Greek, and have gotten Greek citizenship and pensions.

kamani said:

it's funny now a lot of these Aromanians claim to be Greek, and have gotten Greek citizenship and pensions.

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no it is not
it would be funny if not

Yetos said:

no it is not
it would be funny if they claim Slavic or Albanian origins

Both are Northern languages and newly comers in Balkans, centuries after the Latinization of Balkans,
Some of them may come from the PANNONI BASIN KELTES

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So Greece is in a crisis, receiving monetary help, and you're willing to pay pensions to Aromanians pretending to be Greek, that don't even live in Greece!

kamani said:

So Greece is in a crisis, receiving monetary help, and you're willing to pay pensions to Aromanians pretending to be Greek, that don't even live in Greece!

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what is your problem?
you want to get paid by Greeks?
you wanna come for free vacations?
you want to get a loan from a Greek bank?

kamani said:

So Greece is in a crisis, receiving monetary help, and you're willing to pay pensions to Aromanians pretending to be Greek, that don't even live in Greece!

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In 1913 only in the region of Chameria there were 3oo ooo Vlahs. Most of them were Albanian speaking Vlahs but there were Greek speaking Vlahs as well. There were Vlah settlements all over Northern Greece but I have not encounter any figures of how many. Population of Greece is now 3 times higher than it was in 1913. Tht means the Vlahs of Chameria only number one million because of natural growth. If you check the y dna results of Northern Greece you see a spike of haplogroups I and R1a for which, other than Slav population of Northern Greece, The Vlahs are also responsible. So to stay within the frame of this thread I2a is Slavic and Vlah component brought in the Ballkans.

albanopolis said:

In 1913 only in the region of Chameria there were 3oo ooo Vlahs. Most of them were Albanian speaking Vlahs but there were Greek speaking Vlahs as well. There were Vlah settlements all over Northern Greece but I have not encounter any figures of how many. Population of Greece is now 3 times higher than it was in 1913. Tht means the Vlahs of Chameria only number one million because of natural growth. If you check the y dna results of Northern Greece you see a spike of haplogroups I and R1a for which, other than Slav population of Northern Greece, The Vlahs are also responsible. So to stay within the frame of this thread I2a is Slavic and Vlah component brought in the Ballkans.

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WOW
how nice calculations, and expert history, with no documents, and forgot the exchange of populations!!!
really?
no Greeks came fromSMYRNA in 1923,
NO GREEKS CAME FROM KASTAMONE?
NOGREEKS CAME FROM CAPPADOKIA?
NO GREEKS CAME FROM PONTUS?
No Greeks left Bulgaria,
No Greeks return from Austria,
No Greeks return from SERBIA
NO greeks returned from Romania?
NO GReeks returned from Georgia/Ossetia
NPO Greeks returned from Ukraine
NO Greeks returned from Crimea?
FINNALY in 1923 the treaty say about 250 000 in Constantinoupolis, today are only 5 000
WERE THEY GONE?

you have a fantastic calculating system, amazing.

PS
is kamani and you the same person? or you use the same computer?

I recall Greek I2a-Din being mainly I2a-Din-N rather than I2a-Din-S, and indeed the Greek DNA Project at FTDNA seems to have a ratio of about 7:1 of I2a-Din-N to I2a-Din-S. That alone is a pretty good argument against the Serbs bringing I2a-Din to Greece. But is it an argument for the Vlachs? I'm not quite convinced... take the fact that Vlachs have at least as much J2 as I2a-Din, but that Northern Greece is actually a low point for J2 in Greece. R1a is also elevated in Northern Greece (18% per Maciamo's table) despite Vlachs having relatively low R1a (10% per Maciamo's table). So we're perhaps looking for an I2a-Din-N group with R1a to spare and not much J2. Perhaps Bulgarians? I'm not sure what their I2a-Din-N to I2a-Din-S ratio is, though.

Yetos said:

WOW
how nice calculations, and expert history, with no documents, and forgot the exchange of populations!!!
really?
no Greeks came fromSMYRNA in 1923,
NO GREEKS CAME FROM KASTAMONE?
NOGREEKS CAME FROM CAPPADOKIA?
NO GREEKS CAME FROM PONTUS?
No Greeks left Bulgaria,
No Greeks return from Austria,
No Greeks return from SERBIA
NO greeks returned from Romania?
NO GReeks returned from Georgia/Ossetia
NPO Greeks returned from Ukraine
NO Greeks returned from Crimea?
FINNALY in 1923 the treaty say about 250 000 in Constantinoupolis, today are only 5 000
WERE THEY GONE?

you have a fantastic calculating system, amazing.

PS
is kamani and you the same person? or you use the same computer?

Click to expand...

From 1900 up 1990 maybe 5 to 6 million Greeks left to the new Word . Since I have lived in USA for a while only in USA are about 5 million Greeks. Not to mention Canada, Australia, Brasil, Latin America, EU. it could be twice more Greeks around the World than in Greece. So all the people you are mentioning left to other countries. Had they all been living in Greece today Greece would number 35 million souls. Among this emigres could be Vlahs and arvanites. So my estimate is that in today's Greece only 5 Million are real ethnic Hellenes. Others are of different background. Albania had a census a while ago. Out of 3,2 million Albanians citizens living in the country at the time of census only 2.2 said they were Albanians, Others could be Vlahs, Roma, Greeks Slavs, even Armenians and Bosniaks. Greece is a lot more mixed for many reasons I wish not to mention here.

sparkey said:

I recall Greek I2a-Din being mainly I2a-Din-N rather than I2a-Din-S, and indeed the Greek DNA Project at FTDNA seems to have a ratio of about 7:1 of I2a-Din-N to I2a-Din-S. That alone is a pretty good argument against the Serbs bringing I2a-Din to Greece. But is it an argument for the Vlachs? I'm not quite convinced... take the fact that Vlachs have at least as much J2 as I2a-Din, but that Northern Greece is actually a low point for J2 in Greece. R1a is also elevated in Northern Greece (18% per Maciamo's table) despite Vlachs having relatively low R1a (10% per Maciamo's table). So we're perhaps looking for an I2a-Din-N group with R1a to spare and not much J2. Perhaps Bulgarians? I'm not sure what their I2a-Din-N to I2a-Din-S ratio is, though.

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The only arguments I can think of for the Vlachs-hypothesis are: Romanians themselves and the Aromanian-Albanian village "Andon Poci", which was 40% I2a, but that is a very small village, so probably a founder effect. The other Aromanian-Albanian villages did not have as much I2a. But Romanians are definitely old in the Balkans, at least since Roman times and they're not roman soldiers like some of them claim to be. They do speak a language with a lot of words in common with Latin and Albanian. I have even heard a Romanian historian on a documentary say that Italians got Latin from Romanians.