The genomic history of southeastern Europe-Mathiesen et al

Angela said:
J2b was already in Sopot, so no surprise it's in Croatia, although I didn't check the subclades.

We have a I1 autosomally farmer sample from the Hungarian Neolithic.
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Yeah that one and only sample ever found allegedly, like two years ago. Really explains a lot.
 
Angela said:
We have a I1 autosomally farmer sample from the Hungarian Neolithic.
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We have is autosomal ancestry? He doesn't have any hunter gatherer ancestry? And if he does how does it compare to the others he was found with?
 
LeBrok said:
I mean, when package was finished/collected and started to spread with steppe population.
Are you saying that Yamnaya is 40-50% CHG? We know genetics of CHG, it is impossible. When they say Yamnaya was 50% BA Armenian like, it was because stepped moved into Armenia during Bronze age, and made locals more similar to steppe.
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They never said Yamnaya was about 50% Bronze Age Armenian like.

This is what they said in Haak et al:
"This was likely due to admixture of EHG with a population related to present-day Near Easterners, as the most negative f3-statistic in the Yamnaya (giving unambiguous evidence of admixture) is observed when we model them as a mixture of EHG and present-day Near Eastern populations like Armenians (Z = -6.3; SI7).

That's a far different thing.

When more ancient Dna became available, this is what Lazaridis et al stated:
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

" We model each Test population (purple) as a mixture (pink) of a fixed reference population (blue) and a ghost population (orange) residing on the cline defined by two other populations (red and green) according to the visualization method of Supplementary Information, section 10. a, Early/Middle Bronze Age steppe populations are a mixture of Iran_ChL and a population on the WHG→SHG cline. b, Scandinavian hunter–gatherers (SHG) are a mixture of WHG and a population on the Iran_ChL→Steppe_EMBA cline. c, Caucasus hunter– gatherers (CHG) are a mixture of Iran_N and both WHG and EHG. d, Late Neolithic/Bronze Age Europeans are a mixture of the preceding Europe_MNChL population and a population with both EHG and Iran_ChL ancestry. e, Somali are a mixture of Mota49 and a population on the Iran_ChL→Levant_BA cline. f, Eastern European hunter–gatherers (EHG) are a mixture of WHG and a population on the Onge→Han cline."

Iran Chalcolithic according to his calculations represents 43 % of EM Bronze Age steppe people. Iran Chalcolithic itself is 63% CHG, 17% Iran Neolithic, and 20% Levant Neolithic.

11kavwx.jpg

So, according to the Reich Lab, not CHG, no, but a population from south of the Caucasus which moved north onto the steppe.

It went in all directions:
"Admixture from populations related to the Chalcolithic people of western Iran had a wide impact, consistent with contributing around 44% of the ancestry of Levantine Bronze Age populations in the south and about 33% of the ancestry of the Chalcolithic North-West Anatolians in the west."

@Absurdistan,
Has it occurred to you yet to wonder why almost no one responds to you positively?

The only reason I do is to correct your constant misstatements of fact.

@ Promenade,
Yes, he's been analyzed autosomally. You can't depend on yDna. After a number of generations, the autosomal signature originally tied to a certain y line, in this case Mesolithic H/G, may disappear.
 
What baffles me is that all of the sudden they have found tons of R1b in Balkans. I guess, the Hungarian Neolithic samples from 2 years ago where somewhat misleading. Well, not complete at least. Now, surprise, surprise, tons of R1b!!! lol This is most mobile and ubiquitous haplogroup in Europe and West Asia, period, and since LGM!
I'm fine with that. I thought we are going to find western clades of R1b in South West Yamnaya, close to Cucuteni. You know, the last white spot on the map. So I wasn't too far off.
So, I guess, we can expect Baden Culture or bit lower South to be the IE source of invasion to the South-West of Europe, carrying R1b. Maybe proto Italo-Celtic homeland? Autosomally Baden was different than Yamnaya and CW or Unetice. More ENF with WHG, with much less steppe.
Unfortunately I don't have time to read the paper today or tomorrow.
Later.
 
Maciamo said:
Early Bronze Age Anatolia was an offshoot of the Kura-Araxes culture, which I believe was dominated by Y-haplogroups J2a1, then (Caucasian branches of) G2a, J1 and T1a. This study is the first confirmation of it since it shows J1 in EBA Anatolia, long before the Arabic expansion. I also think that the Kura-Araxes expansion was the source of the Minoan civilisation, not the Mycenaean.
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Maciamo its nice to see that your predictions are coming true, so in your opinion are all J2a-L558 related to Kura-Araxes expansion?
 
The only Anatolia Bronze Age "y" we have in this paper is J1a.

As for Kura Araxes, wasn't there something about 11635 Armenia EBA, which turned out to be R1b1-M415(xM269) actually being in a Kura Araxes context?

Or am I misremembering that?
 
. I thought we are going to find western clades of R1b in South West Yamnaya, close to Cucuteni.
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Keeping the faith...
;)

Now we need to look in the southwest steppe! each time it's more easy! (not in the east, now not in the northwest steppe, which is not existent de facto)...
 
LeBrok said:
What baffles me is that all of the sudden they have found tons of R1b in Balkans. I guess, the Hungarian Neolithic samples from 2 years ago where somewhat misleading. Well, not complete at least. Now, surprise, surprise, tons of R1b!!! lol This is most mobile and ubiquitous haplogroup in Europe and West Asia, period, and since LGM!
I'm fine with that. I thought we are going to find western clades of R1b in South West Yamnaya, close to Cucuteni. You know, the last white spot on the map. So I wasn't too far off.
So, I guess, we can expect Baden Culture or bit lower South to be the IE source of invasion to the South-West of Europe, carrying R1b. Maybe proto Italo-Celtic homeland? Autosomally Baden was different than Yamnaya and CW or Unetice. More ENF with WHG, with much less steppe.
Unfortunately I don't have time to read the paper today or tomorrow.
Later.
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the Danube Gorge was an interesting ecological niche for HG fishers, which seem to have been skipped by the Villabrunans
it was exploited only after the youngest dryas by people who came from elsewhere
appearently a R1b tribe

mesolithic Europe still seems to be shaped by Villabrunans I2 invading from the southeast and R1a/b coming from the Volga area (along with some Q1a2 from eastern Siberia)
it even looks like the I2 Villabrunans were in western Ukraine and in Karelia before the R1 tribes, but R1 kept seeping in to the west all the time

and yes, R1 seems to have been a very mobile tribe, I would even say R, as R2 and R1b-V88 seem to have been the first herding hunters in yet another place, the Zagros Mountains

and around 13 ka mesolithic G2a must have spread along the eastern Mediterranean and into Greece
 
The Sicilian and Croatian individuals dating to 12,000 and 6100 BCE cluster closely with western hunter-gatherers, including individuals from Loschbour24 (Luxembourg, 6100 BCE), Bichon20 (Switzerland, 11,700 BCE), and Villabruna18 (Italy 12,000 BCE). These results demonstrate that the ?western hunter-gatherer? population24 was widely distributed from the Atlantic seaboard of Europe in the West, to Sicily in the South, to the Balkan Peninsula in the Southeast, for at least six thousand years, strengthening the evidence that the western hunter gatherers represent a population that expanded from a southeastern European refugium following the last Ice Age around 15,000 years ago?in the process displacing or admixing with the existing population of western Europe."
 
Milan.M said:
So basically we have R1b all over Balkans,pure gold.
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There we have the origin of Villabruna.

But there seems to be allot of R1 clades during the mesolithic in Balkans. It rivals Mal'ta. As I argued in the past. R1 is far too old to be just the lineage of one group, and must have been spred around the globe much earlier. Also it is far to widespred outside of the Indo European context, so that we can determine Indo European ness with yDNA. Interestingly because these Paleolithic/Mesolithic R1 lineages show no Steppe ancestry.
 
Angela said:
The only Anatolia Bronze Age "y" we have in this paper is J1a.

As for Kura Araxes, wasn't there something about 11635 Armenia EBA, which turned out to be R1b1-M415(xM269) actually being in a Kura Araxes context?

Or am I misremembering that?
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You are not misremembering. That is correct R1b1 and L1a as far as I remember. This West Anatolian Bronze Age samples are from the province of Isparta. A little later Anatolian IE language Sidetic was spoken there, seems to be connected to that because beyond the Neolithic pops only Indo Europeans are attested in that region.
 
Alpenjager said:
I have made a bar chart showing the mtDNA H frequency among all tested Early Neolithic populations. I have excluded H5 results because this is found in Anatolia and is not found in Karsdorf.

Interesting findings is that Karsdorf match pretty well with Eastern Balkans while starcevo-koros and LBK from southwestern Germany match with Anatolia.

I have not included any unreliable sample and I decided count as H5 an ambiguous H vs H5 sample from Barcin. I have not included two samples from Portugal.

View attachment 8369 View attachment 8370
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As Predicted by my bar chart 4 month ago, T1a1a have been found in a Criş culture settlement.

And as I showed in this map 3 months ago: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Genetic_landscape_of_Europe_7000_YBP.png
 

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Angela said:
And look at this: Iran Neolithic:
R:M718:17334694G->T
R:CTS2426:14300457G->A; R:FGC1168:15667208G->C

Now, my brain is fried.
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I didn't quite understand this one. Are their some IranNeolithic samples in it. And do these mean yDNA T, A, C where found or that a R haplogroup was found and these are the calls for it? or is it something completely different.
 
Alan said:
I didn't quite understand this one. Are their some IranNeolithic samples in it. And do these mean yDNA T, A, C where found or that a R haplogroup was found and these are the calls for it? or is it something completely different.
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T = Thymine
A = Adenine
C = Citosine
 
berun said:
Keeping the faith...
;)

Now we need to look in the southwest steppe! each time it's more easy! (not in the east, now not in the northwest steppe, which is not existent de facto)...
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I see, we should stop looking and depend on your fantazy. This is how science is done, lol. If you ever cared for what I'm saying , try to find my idea about who I say invaded Iberia in BA.
PS. Unlike yours, my predictions are never based on faith.
I predict now that in 2 years you will stop showing up on Eupedia, from all the shame that none of your fantasies turned right. Though, if you do, you will keep blaming the "bad" papers, "bad" scientists, "bad" interpretations and us not understanding your "brilliant" visions. Unfortunately no amount of evidence will ever change your mind, because people of strong faith never forsake their religion.
 
OK, so.

This is very interesting and clarifies a lot of things, but it's nothing earth shattering to me:


  • We have an early group of Levantine/South Anatolian farmers in the Peloponnese. This is interesting, but the fact that there were more than one population of farmers moving into the Balkan peninsula isn't too surprising. It would be more strange if there was only a single source. I wish we had their Y-HGs, but we can probably make a good guess with this
  • We have R1b and I2a among European hunter gatherers. Nothing surprising especially after 1) Villabruna and 2) Baltic HG samples. Given the range of the epigravettian people should have expected R1b HGs in the Balkans. It is a little interesting that Latvian HG appears to have more AG reflecting pre-EHG contacts with "ANE".
  • R1b and R1a still appear to have arisen in Europe and Siberia among hunter gatherers prior to Bronze age dispersals.
  • R1b and R1a is still associated with the spread of IE. This doesn't change that despite what people are posting, but I guess given the pervading white supremacy in this whole discussion I'll be accepting of this in so far as it doesn't degenerate into complete denial.
  • We do see a very early interaction zone between HGs on the WHG-EHG cline and Balkan farmers, which is what I've always said would be the evidence of early departures of Anatolian and Italo-Celtic. I would bet that this signals the development of Anatolian.
  • The Anatolian bronze age samples are too old to disprove that Hittite came from the Balkans. The Hittite language itself is the oldest of IEs, but the Hittites aren't even in their historical seat until 2000BC at the earliest.
  • I will say that the J1a and the increase in Iran Neo/CHG in the Anatolian bronze age samples is consistent with a Caucasian/Iranian plateau PIE Homeland, but it's still highly unlikley given all the data we have and I don't think we need to spell it all out for the millionth time.
  • There was recently talk about Mycenean haplogroups and how they could or could not be R1a. We have an R1a in MLBA Bulgaria.
  • Maykop will be telling. There has been some discussion as to the possibility that Anatolian came from Maykop itself, which could be the case.

Let's say we see a bunch of R1b in Maykop with mostly CHG samples. This would open things up, but it would still present problems. It would be hard to interpret and I think it would muddy things more that it would clarify.

Alright gotta go to work.
 
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Angela said:
Btw, I highly recommend the books he showcases there.
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However the author of this blogpost appears to omit that Robert Drews argues for an Armenian homeland and a Greek migration from Anatolia into Greece in the Middle Bronze Age. That's why the main focus of his books is West Asia and the interaction between Indo-European & non-Indo-European populations in Anatolia.
 
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