Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

You are trying to connect Illyrians with south Slavic people.
I'm trying to figure out why South Slavics are ashamed of their ancestry? Its nothing wrong according to me of being a Slav.
Slavs are another European people with their own merits and wrongs as any other people of Europe. No people of Europe are perfect. Even Countries like Germany and England and France, with advanced cultural and economic development have had their dark moments in history. No one is perfect. But the insistence of Slavs to connect with Illyrians shows that they suffer an inferior complexity. Suppose what you are saying is true. Slavs of the Balkans are connected with Illyrians. Will you inherit the cultural and territorial legacy of Illyrians? No one with the right mind will give a Slavic speaking, Slavic looking the credentials of an ancient people of the Ballkans. Look how the Macedonian Slavs are becoming the but of the jokes with their efforts to look the hair of an ancient people. Old Macedonians were a separate ethnicity that have disappeared. They conquered Greece. Had no ethnic connections with Greeks.
My advice to you! Serbs are not hairs of Illyrians in any form or shape. The only one that can claim are Dalmatians,( not all Croats) and Bosnians. Through claiming Illyrian ancestry you degrade your own true ancestry unfairly. Regardless the deficiencies of your ancestry it does not make you worse or better than any other European Ethnic group.
My advice to you: Be proud of your Slavic ancestry. Illyrians have another owners.

I spoke about book by Wilkes which is not favorable for those who think that the Illyrians have a connection with the Albanians.

If someone reads Wilkes's book, although Y-DNA is not subject, he or she can derive conclusion that Illyrians could be I2a, R1a or R1b carriers, not E or J carriers.

I will not enter here which haplogroups Illyrians belonged, Maciamo wrote about it if someone wants he or she can read:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-amp-Illyrians

And Western Serbs, you can see maps of Serbia throughout history. Wilkes precise describes Illyrian territory.
 
I spoke about book by Wilkes which is not favorable for those who think that the Illyrians have a connection with the Albanians.

If someone reads Wilkes's book, although Y-DNA is not subject, he or she can derive conclusion that Illyrians could be I2a, R1a or R1b carriers, not E or J carriers.

I will not enter here which haplogroups Illyrians belonged, Maciamo wrote about it if someone wants he or she can read:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-amp-Illyrians

And Western Serbs, you can see maps of Serbia throughout history. Wilkes precise describes Illyrian territory.

As you citing Wilkes: Among others he says that " Albanians are dark and short". Have you been to Kosovo? Who is taller in general, Serbs or Kosovans? Would you agree with me that an average Kosovan is at least 10 cm taller than a Serb? Kosovans are Illyrians too, don't forget that!
Would you agree that Albanians in general are dark? Since his strongest argument to prove that Albanians are short and dark is a lie, would you believe what he has to say further?
Suppose that he was not sponsored by circles connected with South Slavs, how did he know that Illyrians were white? Where did he find that source?
Illyrian origin of Albanians was not discovered by Albanians. Albanians because of Ottoman conquest had very faint conscious who they were. Most thought of themselves as Ottomans. It was Swedish linguists who discovered the fact first followed by Austrians and Germans. That's why even though Albanians did not have a major power to support them in 1912 was given independence.
Now, suppose Wilkes was not sponsored by Slavic circles. He wrote his book reading among others Slavic sources that were fiercely anti Albanian. Is not a possibility that he has gotten it all wrong?
Finally, who is Wilkes? He could be a provocateur to make his book sound different in order to sell it!
 
I spoke about book by Wilkes which is not favorable for those who think that the Illyrians have a connection with the Albanians.

If someone reads Wilkes's book, although Y-DNA is not subject, he or she can derive conclusion that Illyrians could be I2a, R1a or R1b carriers, not E or J carriers.

I will not enter here which haplogroups Illyrians belonged, Maciamo wrote about it if someone wants he or she can read:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-amp-Illyrians

And Western Serbs, you can see maps of Serbia throughout history. Wilkes precise describes Illyrian territory.


About Wilkes again: You wander why Albanians are not challenging or discrediting Wilkes?
Albanians have no identity crisis! They know that the few Illyrian toponims that have survived are words that Albs still use everyday. They know for sure where the words of the language Albs use came from. Generally is accepted Illyrian origin of Albs from the serious academics of Europe. The one who do not believe it for ill purposes or scientific doubts are in their own god given wrights but their doubts do not translate in them being wright. The genetics so far is in Albs side. E-v13, J2b are proof of an early farmers population.
 
You didn't read.

I gave source:

Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jürgen,

Albanian Identities: Myth and History

Indiana State University, US

Of course, such sources there are a lot. Scientists know that myth about "Illyrian origin of Albanians" was Enver Hoxha's state project. But if you want, you can write to the authors why they argue that Enver Hoxha declared that Albanian origin is Illyrian and that among Albanian scholars nobody dared to question what Enver Hoxha declared.

...

About John Wilkes, you didn't read too, it is this author claims that Bosnians and arrounding people are Illyrians, not Albanians.

According Wilkes's research, skeletal evidence from prehistoric cemeteries shows differences between Illyrians and Albanians. Albanians and Illyrians are were two physically different groups. Wilkes: "Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to define an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to modern Albanians."

Wilkes has been proven correct by science when Y-DNA of European populations confirmed that the majority of contemporary Albanians do not share I2a, R1a and R1b (excepting R1b ht35, Armenian haplotype) which are an Illyrian or any Indo-European linneage. John Wilkes puts Illyrian descendants among contemporary ex-Yugoslav people, centered around Montenegro and Bosnia and branching out into Dalmatia and western Serbia. This area has concetration I2a haplogroup, which is missing in Albanians. Wilkes hints that ex-Yugoslav people are slavicized Illyrians.

In linguistic Wilkes speaks about Centum and Satem division. Wilkes discusses problem linking Illyrian and Albanian because these two languages are mutually exclussive, Illyrian is Centum and Albanian is Satem.

Read this book. Keep in mind that no one Albanian scholar couldn't deny Wilkes. After Wilkes Illyrian origin of the Albanians was quiet.

In other hand Y-DNA suggests that Illyrians could have I2a haplogroup, this haplogroup is main in Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats.
I honestly hate to respond to your type, but I guess someone has to counter the constant Serbian propaganda machines like yourself, Milan, Ike and few other blabbering morons. That Albanian descent from Illyrians was coined centuries before Hoxha was born, so please stop making a fool out of yourself.

I can see that you haven’t read Wilkes book, and that part that all Serbs like to copy and paste in every board is taken out of context. Most importantly though, without dwelling much into it, Albanians are not short and dark skinned. We have Coon, the father of anthropology, which we can certainly rely on his data regarding Albanians anthropologically, has to say this about Albanians and Illyrians:
Illyrians:
In Bosnia, we come to the famous site of Glasinac, 21 where a comparatively large series of relatively late Illyrian remains contains again a mixture of types. The majority of the skulls are long headed and these show the same mixture of Danubian and Corded elements which we have already seen at Hallstatt itself. A few of the individual crania are very large, and reproduce the Corded prototype quite accurately. The brachycephalic skulls, although in the minority, are numerous enough to permit one to determine their racial affiliation with some accuracy. Almost all belong to what might be called a modern Dinaric racial type. The skulls are moderately large with flattened occiputs, straight side walls, rather broad foreheads, and a very prominent nose, in the one instance in which the nasal bones were preserved. 22 The jaws are very broad with an excessive bigonial diameter, but not noted for their depth.
Albanians:
Almost all of the Ghegs are light-skinned, with the von Luschan #3 and 7 most frequently represented. Freckling, common in Montenegro, is rare here; what little there is is confined almost entirely to the tribes nearest Old Montenegro, and here it reaches but 5 per cent. The head hair is usually brunet, with black or near black reaching 40 per cent, and dark to medium brown 45 per cent. Light brown or blond hair, which is almost always on the golden or slightly rufous side, accounts for the other 15 per cent. Only two men out of 1100 were found to have ash-blond hair. As in Montenegro, the beards are much lighter than the head hair; the black contingent is reduced to 6 per cent, while 36 per cent are reddish brown or auburn, 3 per cent red, and 30 per cent golden blond or light brown with a golden tinge. The rufous tendency, while not as pronounced as in parts of Montenegro, exists to the virtual exclusion of ash-blondism. Regionally, the darkest hair is found in Mirdita and in the eastern border; the lightest in the west and south.
At this point there arises the entire question of Dinaric origins, which may be approached on the basis of a statistical analysis of the Gheg material. Attempts to intercorrelate metrical and morphological characters with each other and with pigmentation reveal the presence of the following types in Ghegnia, each of which shows a tendency for the characters of which it is composed to associate themselves as a unit.

1. A tall, large-headed, brachycephalic, wide-faced type, with intermediate pigmentation, and an especial tendency toward rufosity. This is the Borreby-like type prevalent in Montenegro; in Albania it is almost wholly confined to the tribe of Malsia ë Madhë, and within that tribe is concentrated in the bairak of Gruda.
2. A medium-statured, brachycephalic, short-faced type, with mixed pigmentation, which is fundamentally Alpine. It is found in all tribes, but is commonest in the refuge area of Mirdita.
3. A tall, dolichocephalic or mesocephalic type with dark hair and dark brown eyes, a straight nasal profile, and a tendency toward a lesser leptorrhiny than the total group. This is an Atlanto-Mediterranean racial type which is also prevalent in other Balkan countries. It may also be sorted out of available statistical series of Greeks, while it is common in Bulgaria and easily distinguishable among Serbs. It, or a similar type, also occurs with Dinarics in northern Italy and the Tyrol. In northern Albania it is commonest in Malsia Jakovës and Dukagin.
4. A very strongly differentiated type which is characterized by medium stature, exceptional brachycephaly, great narrowness and convexity of the nose, a high incidence of occipital flattening, and a tendency to light brown eye color in combination with dark brown hair. This type may be called Dinaric in the full or specific sense; most of the other Ghegs are Dinarics in a partial or a general sense. This ultra-Dinaric type is commonest in the tribe of Dibra.
5. A blond, brachycephalic, convex-nosed Noric, of standard type. It is commonest in Zadrima.
6. A few light brown-haired Nordics, centered in Luma.

Someone with half a brain that understands anthropology can see that Illyrians found at Glasinac don't differ much from modern Albanians.


Genetics actually are not on your side either, why you decide to include them in this debate about linguistics is beyond me. They indeed confirm just that, that we in fact pre-dated most nationalities in Balkans, and have been here at least since bronze age (E-V13, J2b2 and R1b L23), but of course you half brained dimwit are not able to understand it. R1a, specifically the M458, which is found in good numbers today among the Balkan Slavs is in fact recent intruder to this region, just like I2a Dinaric is (R1a peaking in Poland while the I2a Dinaric having the father clade also in Poland). The I2a that peaks today among Slavs is very young in age, and just like I mentioned, the father clade found in Poland couldn't be Illyrian. Illyrians were waging wars and forming kingdoms when this specific clade wasn't even born! As for L23 that is found among us and makes about 20% of our y-dna, that you specify as “Armenian”, in fact majority belongs to BY611 which is also known as the “Balkan cluster”, makes its own branch within CTS9219.

I will say this again, please halfwit, when you are unable to understand nor to comprehend what is presented in front of you, don’t participate in such threads. You should in fact be preoccupied with you own shady history and ancestry, and find out from where the hell from you came to the Balkans rather than waste energy on Albanians.
 
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Please explain your theory on this Illyrian connection because Albania has less than 10% of ancient illyrian lands, it actually has 40% of ancient Epirote lands. With the Albanian government deciding in 1960 that the true Albanian language is Tosk and from this point , Tosk being the ONLY albanian dialect used in schools to this day, can only be from the conclusion that Albanians are more "greek" epirote than illyrian.

The bulk of illyrian mix is with the Bosnians and Croatians , while Slovenians and Montenegrins are either the same as Albanians or slightly more.
The Serbs have no illyrian mix, they have a thracian mix

Well, since we are at the end of the year, we can say that this post win the competition as the most idiot post of the year.
 
I honestly hate to respond to your type, but I guess someone has to counter the constant Serbian propaganda machines like yourself, Milan, Ike and few other blabbering morons. That Albanian descent from Illyrians was coined centuries before Hoxha was born, so please stop making a fool out of yourself.

I can see that you haven’t read Wilkes book, and that part that all Serbs like to copy and paste in every board is taken out of context. Most importantly though, without dwelling much into it, Albanians are not short and dark skinned. We have Coon, the father of anthropology, which we can certainly rely on his data regarding Albanians anthropologically, has to say this about Albanians and Illyrians:



Someone with half a brain that understands anthropology can see that Illyrians found at Glasinac don't differ much from modern Albanians.


Genetics actually are not on your side either, why you decide to include them in this debate about linguistics is beyond me. They indeed confirm just that, that we in fact pre-dated most nationalities in Balkans, and have been here at least since bronze age (E-V13, J2b2 and R1b L23), but of course you half brained dimwit are not able to understand it. R1a, specifically the M458, which is found in good numbers today among the Balkan Slavs is in fact recent intruder to this region, just like I2a Dinaric is (R1a peaking in Poland while the I2a Dinaric having the father clade also in Poland). The I2a that peaks today among Slavs is very young in age, and just like I mentioned, the father clade found in Poland couldn't be Illyrian. Illyrians were waging wars and forming kingdoms when this specific clade wasn't even born! As for L23 that is found among us and makes about 20% of our y-dna, that you specify as “Armenian”, in fact majority belongs to BY611 which is also known as the “Balkan cluster”, makes its own branch within CTS9219.

I will say this again, please halfwit, when you are unable to understand nor to comprehend what is presented in front of you, don’t participate in such threads. You should in fact be preoccupied with you own shady history and ancestry, and find out from where the hell from you came to the Balkans rather than waste energy on Albanians.

Yes, because I give facts, it is the easiest way to attempt to insult, but that has nothing with true.

Wilkes is very unfavorable for Albanians and Albanian scholars know it, I will give pages and pages of Wilkes's book, of course not exaggerating, respecting copyrights.

...
About haplogroups: E and J, main Albanian haplogroups, were not Illyrian main haplogroups.

I gave what Maciamo wrote, if you have something against it, or maybe some new information, you can contact Mr. Maciamo.
...

Here is main problem what I gave citation from the book:

Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jürgen Fischer,
Albanian Identities: Myth and History
Indiana State University, US

But authors know about what they are talking. Every Albanian scholar who denied that Illyrians and Albanians have links had problems. You know what dictators do when someone is opposed to what dictator proclaimed.

For example Albanian dissident Fatos Lubonja observes that the Albanian and Illyrian link was created in order to establish a myth of Albanian antiquity in the Balkans.

Fatos Lubonja is Albanian, he opposed the myth created by Enver Hoxha.

Biography:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatos_Lubonja

...
Fatos Lubonja wrote:

"The main myths created by those who were the so-called 'men of the Albanian renaissance' (rilindja), who nourished Albanian national romanticism, are typical myths of European romanticism of the 19th century, creating the pride in Albanians of being a unique people. Among the main myths are those exalting the antiquity of the Albanian people and Albanian as one of the oldest languages. Since it was necessary to distinguish the Albanians from the Greeks and Slavs - even to stress their superiority - the origin of the Albanian people, which, according to mythology, were the inhabitants of the Balkans before Greeks, later the Pellasgians were replaced by the Illyrians. Consequently, the myths of the great Albanian men of antiquity were created, among whom the most distinguished were Alexander the Great and Pirro of Epirus."

...
What we can see here. This Albanian intelectual (who opposed the dictator Hoxha) gives reasons why for Hoxha were necessary Pelasgian and Illyrian myth, and other myths.

...
It is needed critical thinking. Repeat like parrots that Albanians are descedants of Illyrians leads nowhere, because hard evidence says different. It is significant to point that there are people like Lubonja among Albanians who think critically and do not adopt a priori fictions and myths.
 
Please explain your theory on this Illyrian connection because Albania has less than 10% of ancient illyrian lands, it actually has 40% of ancient Epirote lands. With the Albanian government deciding in 1960 that the true Albanian language is Tosk and from this point , Tosk being the ONLY albanian dialect used in schools to this day, can only be from the conclusion that Albanians are more "greek" epirote than illyrian.

The bulk of illyrian mix is with the Bosnians and Croatians , while Slovenians and Montenegrins are either the same as Albanians or slightly more.
The Serbs have no illyrian mix, they have a thracian mix


In my Opinion the Dalmatians, (Not all Croatians) and Muslim Bosnians have the majority of their ethnic make up from Illyrians. Even today a Dalmatian will emphasize its Geographic location as a place of origin, than Croatia as the state where they belong. Also Bosnians are mostly of Illyrian stock. But they can not be the lawful inheritors of Illyrian legacy since they have lost the cultural element that made them Illyrians. So this 10% of Illyrian territory we call today Albanians inherit major cultural and ethnic elements of Illyrian population and as a result we claim them as us.
I don't think a Croatian will feel good if you tell them you have nothing to do with Slavs.
Personally I wold not oppose if a Muslim Bosnian will call himself an Illyrian.
 
Yes, because I give facts, it is the easiest way to attempt to insult, but that has nothing with true.

Wilkes is very unfavorable for Albanians and Albanian scholars know it, I will give pages and pages of Wilkes's book, of course not exaggerating, respecting copyrights.

...
About haplogroups: E and J, main Albanian haplogroups, were not Illyrian main haplogroups.

I gave what Maciamo wrote, if you have something against it, or maybe some new information, you can contact Mr. Maciamo.
...

Here is main problem what I gave citation from the book:

Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jürgen Fischer,
Albanian Identities: Myth and History
Indiana State University, US

But authors know about what they are talking. Every Albanian scholar who denied that Illyrians and Albanians have links had problems. You know what dictators do when someone is opposed to what dictator proclaimed.

For example Albanian dissident Fatos Lubonja observes that the Albanian and Illyrian link was created in order to establish a myth of Albanian antiquity in the Balkans.

Fatos Lubonja is Albanian, he opposed the myth created by Enver Hoxha.

Biography:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatos_Lubonja

...
Fatos Lubonja wrote:

"The main myths created by those who were the so-called 'men of the Albanian renaissance' (rilindja), who nourished Albanian national romanticism, are typical myths of European romanticism of the 19th century, creating the pride in Albanians of being a unique people. Among the main myths are those exalting the antiquity of the Albanian people and Albanian as one of the oldest languages. Since it was necessary to distinguish the Albanians from the Greeks and Slavs - even to stress their superiority - the origin of the Albanian people, which, according to mythology, were the inhabitants of the Balkans before Greeks, later the Pellasgians were replaced by the Illyrians. Consequently, the myths of the great Albanian men of antiquity were created, among whom the most distinguished were Alexander the Great and Pirro of Epirus."

...
What we can see here. This Albanian intelectual (who opposed the dictator Hoxha) gives reasons why for Hoxha were necessary Pelasgian and Illyrian myth, and other myths.

...
It is needed critical thinking. Repeat like parrots that Albanians are descedants of Illyrians leads nowhere, because hard evidence says different. It is significant to point that there are people like Lubonja among Albanians who think critically and do not adopt a priori fictions and myths.

^^ The squeal that Abeis was talking about. When he is presented with evidence and facts, and can't debate them any further, he loses control and doesn't remember what we were talking about. Posts a controversial journalist to further ridicule himself on debate about linguistics, anthropology and genetics.


I will remind you again you ridiculous caricature, this thread is not about Enver Hoxha and his deeds.
 
^^ The squeal that Abeis was talking about. When he is presented with evidence and facts, and can't debate them any further, he loses control and doesn't remember what we were talking about. Posts a controversial journalist to further ridicule himself on debate about linguistics, anthropology and genetics.

Let them be, Skerdilaidas! Its glaringly clear that these conceited halfwits (garrick and milan, which probably are the same person) are nowhere to offer any substantial opinion. at its best, all they can do is a sloppy work of selective quotes in line what they're anxious to hear. The height of irony was when these kids accused me of not reading Wilkes book :LOL: while I got it right into my hands. It's a moot point trying to point the obvious as it would be ignored anyway. these repulsive ignorants throw words around without the flimsiest ideas of what they mean, just causing everyone to yawn. How infuriating, not to say obnoxious. I'll provide again the same conclusions hammered home by Wilkes:

c210.jpg

c310.jpg

c510.jpg


and another excerpt from Noel Malcolm, a highly acclaimed authority on medieval history of Kosova, who did a truly impeccable piece of work, asserts:

c810.jpg


P.S: That thing with Fatos Lubonja is like the cherry on top of the cake. Citing an average journalist who is neither adept nor competent to talks upon such subjects, gives me a pain in the butt :D
 
Ok Abeis, but if Noel Malcolm is an spy of Enver Hoxha? You have to take in consideration this.
 
In my Opinion the Dalmatians, (Not all Croatians) and Muslim Bosnians have the majority of their ethnic make up from Illyrians. Even today a Dalmatian will emphasize its Geographic location as a place of origin, than Croatia as the state where they belong. Also Bosnians are mostly of Illyrian stock. But they can not be the lawful inheritors of Illyrian legacy since they have lost the cultural element that made them Illyrians. So this 10% of Illyrian territory we call today Albanians inherit major cultural and ethnic elements of Illyrian population and as a result we claim them as us.
I don't think a Croatian will feel good if you tell them you have nothing to do with Slavs.
Personally I wold not oppose if a Muslim Bosnian will call himself an Illyrian.

When the slavs arrived, they did not find the lands empty of people.

as noted in historical fact by historians , the delmatae, ancestors of the dalmatians, only arrived on the coast of dalmatia not before 300BC, they where in inland Bosnia and pannonia.

It is very hard to see much illyrian in Albanians. Reading italian historians from the renaissance times about the area albania, they only ever mention the word Epiroti...................the questions keep coming back to ..........if Epirus was Greek then why was there greek colonies there instead of Epirus being part of the known ancient greek world?

And, Greeks always state the Epirotes where Barbarians, that term barbarians indicate a people that did not speak Greek
 
Well, since we are at the end of the year, we can say that this post win the competition as the most idiot post of the year.


:LOL::hahaha:

your just upset because you are Gheg and that the Albanian Government for the last 50 years claims only Tosk Albanian are pure Albanians. There is no other reason why Gheg is being prevented from being taught in schools
 
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In my Opinion the Dalmatians, (Not all Croatians) and Muslim Bosnians have the majority of their ethnic make up from Illyrians. Even today a Dalmatian will emphasize its Geographic location as a place of origin, than Croatia as the state where they belong. Also Bosnians are mostly of Illyrian stock. But they can not be the lawful inheritors of Illyrian legacy since they have lost the cultural element that made them Illyrians. So this 10% of Illyrian territory we call today Albanians inherit major cultural and ethnic elements of Illyrian population and as a result we claim them as us.
I don't think a Croatian will feel good if you tell them you have nothing to do with Slavs.
Personally I wold not oppose if a Muslim Bosnian will call himself an Illyrian.

You might have noticed that I am personally very cautious on the subject of which haplogroup among Illyrians is dominant or at least to have a relative majority.

But it is little chance that E and J haplogroups were dominant among Illyrians.

They were people from the north, and their language was Centum. It is possible that haplogroups I2a1 and R1b (Italo Celtic) are better candidates in comparison with other. Yes Bosnians and Dalmatians (todays Muslim Bosniacs, Western Serbs and South Croats) are mostly I2a1 carriers, but Italo Celtic R1b is not frequent. Certainly there may be more reasons why R1b Italo Celtic is reduced in these areas, but maybe Illyrians were not to a significant extent R1b (Italo Celtic) carriers.

Today males (if we take data with Eupedia and number of inhabitants): about 1.170.000 in Serbia, 1.000.000 in Bosnia and Herzegovina (Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats), and 790.000 in Croatia have I2a1 haplogroup. If this haplogroup Illyrian marker? My personal opinion we have no enough knowledge. But it is possible, and further researches are needed. We know that I2a1 is Old European haplogroup and this haplogroup was found at the site Starcevo, Serbia (Starcevo culture is ancient civilization on the Danube river which dates back to 6000 BC).

I gave the threads which opened Maciamo:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-amp-Illyrians

I have given more thought about the origin of I2a-Din (L621>L147.2) and came to the following conclusion.

During the Mesolithic the I2a1 (P37.2) hunter-gatherers must have occupied a vast part of western, central and eastern Europe. Central and western European I2a1 lineages only survive at low frequencies in three newly identified subclades: L1286, L1294 and L880. The south-western M26 branch was absorbed by Neolithic farmers of the Cardium Pottery culture, whose descendants are found mostly in modern Sardinians and Basques.

The eastern branch, I2a1b (M423) were hunter-gatherers from the Carpathian region and/or from further north (Poland, Belarus, western Ukraine). Those in the Carpathian basin would have mixed with Middle Eastern Neolithic farmers and founded the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE). The whole region from Romania to Poland would then have been absorbed by the Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware culture (2900-2400 BCE).

After being Indo-Europeanized, I2a-L621 would have become the dominant paternal lineage among southern Slavs, while R1a remained dominant among northern Slavs.

The presence of I2a-L621 in Romania and Bulgaria could be attributed to the migration of the ancient Dacians and Thracians, who emerged as a mixture of of indigenous peoples (I2a1b) and Indo-Europeans (R1a) sometime between 3000 and 1500 BCE.

The Illyrians, an IE tribe who conquered the territory of former Yugoslavia circa 1200-1000 BCE, might have been an offshoot from the Dacians or the Thracians, or a closely related tribe from the Carpathian basin.

...

What about E-V13 and J2b, if some of them could be Illyrian marker? Little chance even unbeliveable, but let Albanians to say why these haplogroups can be dominantly Illyrian.
 
Let them be, Skerdilaidas! Its glaringly clear that these conceited halfwits (garrick and milan, which probably are the same person) are nowhere to offer any substantial opinion. at its best, all they can do is a sloppy work of selective quotes in line what they're anxious to hear. The height of irony was when these kids accused me of not reading Wilkes book while I got it right into my hands. It's a moot point trying to point the obvious as it would be ignored anyway. these repulsive ignorants throw words around without the flimsiest ideas of what they mean, just causing everyone to yawn. How infuriating, not to say obnoxious. I'll provide again the same conclusions hammered home by Wilkes:

and another excerpt from Noel Malcolm, a highly acclaimed authority on medieval history of Kosova, who did a truly impeccable piece of work, asserts:

P.S: That thing with Fatos Lubonja is like the cherry on top of the cake. Citing an average journalist who is neither adept nor competent to talks upon such subjects, gives me a pain in the butt

Not impressed. And you will see why Mr. Wilkes is not good for Albanians (and why Albanians try critique him), but there are other important things before we get to this. Here only that new literature, after Wilkes, is much more critical and claim that Illyrian and Albanian have no link, and Wilkes is partly responsible for it, after Wilkes nothing is the same.

Example, Bideleux and Jeffries analyze what Wilkes writes and conclude:

The Balkans: A Post-Communist History, 2007

"It is thus unlikely that there were major connections between ancient ‘Illyrian’ and modern Albanian"

"The modern-day Albanian language (like modern-day Armenian and Farsi) represents a distinct sub-category within the Indo-European family of languages, and over the centuries neighbouring countries naturally supplied many Latin, Turkish, Greek and Slavic ‘loan words’."

You can see, very important conclusion of Bideleux and Jeffries, it is unlikely that connection exists and Albanian is distinct subcategory within Indo-European family, it is not linked with Illyrian, or Paleo Balkan languages.

...
And not only Mr. Malcom, you can see in Serbia there were opinions that Illyrians and Albanians can be linked. They are mostly older sources. In the meantime science has progressed and today we know that assumptions never proven. It's living matter, you can see and genetic studies in next 15 years gave new knowledge.

Why are important Albanian intellectuals as Fatos Lubonja? Because among Albanians there are many who not succumbed official story that Albanians are linked with Illyrians, and I will give arguments more Albanian intellectuals. They are certainly brave people.

...
Several Albanians told me how every Serb thinks differently. Albanians are trying to reach a uniform opinion. It is difference between cultures, Serbs believe that diversity leads to the survival and prosperity, Albanians believe that it is uniformity. Of course, quite a different kind of leadership is required in Serbia in relation to Albania. I don't say what is better.

This I say because I have nothing with Milan, I don't know who is he, and he gives his opinion, what is his right, how I can notice he is thorough. But attempt to discredit one or another in this way is childish, although and it is contrary to the forum rules. I have already said, let everyone writes what he or she wants (if complies with the rules of forum), I want to hear what say Albanians, or Turks, or anybody else. Arguments are winning, no number or shouting of interlocutors.
 
:LOL::hahaha:

your just upset because you are Gheg and that the Albanian Government for the last 50 years claims only Tosk Albanian are pure Albanians. There is no other reason why Gheg is being prevented from being taught in schools

Every Albanian having read what you wrote in this post will begin to laugh with you. Try to read something about Albania and Albanians, because you are becoming ridiculous. Try to have a minimum of knowledge on the issues you want to discuss.
Try to understand this first:
Dialectological_chart_of_Albanian.jpg

P.S.
I am not Geg. I am Lab and Laberia is heart of Toskeria. But first of all i am ALBANIAN.
 
When the slavs arrived, they did not find the lands empty of people.

as noted in historical fact by historians , the delmatae, ancestors of the dalmatians, only arrived on the coast of dalmatia not before 300BC, they where in inland Bosnia and pannonia.

It is very hard to see much illyrian in Albanians. Reading italian historians from the renaissance times about the area albania, they only ever mention the word Epiroti...................the questions keep coming back to ..........if Epirus was Greek then why was there greek colonies there instead of Epirus being part of the known ancient greek world?

And, Greeks always state the Epirotes where Barbarians, that term barbarians indicate a people that did not speak Greek

At the end of 5th century Ad there was dramatic change in Illyrian territories. Illyrians of Dalmacia, Croatia, Slovenia completely switched their language to latin. For Romans of that time they no longer were Illyrians. They were Romans. But still mountainous Albs kept their heavy latin influenced language and identity separate. Roman administration reorganized the territories in Epirus veta (old Epirus) and Epirus Nova (new Epirus) what were Albanian speaking territories. At this time the Emperors of Rome were Illyrians (Alb) and they did not distinguish the population in Epiroti and Illyrians as the early Romans did.
 
At the end of 5th century Ad there was dramatic change in Illyrian territories. Illyrians of Dalmacia, Croatia, Slovenia completely switched their language to latin. For Romans of that time they no longer were Illyrians. They were Romans. But still mountainous Albs kept their heavy latin influenced language and identity separate. Roman administration reorganized the territories in Epirus veta (old Epirus) and Epirus Nova (new Epirus) what were Albanian speaking territories. At this time the Emperors of Rome were Illyrians (Alb) and they did not distinguish the population in Epiroti and Illyrians as the early Romans did.

by the 5th century AD , there was no Roman......illyricum was settled by ostrogoths

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths#/media/File:Ostrogothic_Kingdom.png
The rise of the Huns around 370 overwhelmed the Gothic kingdoms.[18] Many of the Goths migrated into Roman territory in the Balkans, while others remained north of the Danube under Hunnic rule.
 
Every Albanian having read what you wrote in this post will begin to laugh with you. Try to read something about Albania and Albanians, because you are becoming ridiculous. Try to have a minimum of knowledge on the issues you want to discuss.
Try to understand this first:
View attachment 7567

P.S.
I am not Geg. I am Lab and Laberia is heart of Toskeria. But first of all i am ALBANIAN.

so you originate from ancient Epirus being a tosk .........good for you
 
:LOL::hahaha:

your just upset because you are Gheg and that the Albanian Government for the last 50 years claims only Tosk Albanian are pure Albanians. There is no other reason why Gheg is being prevented from being taught in schools




In fact its a huge loss the negligence of Gheg dialect. Some of the best Alb literary work is in Gheg. I wish Albs should have maintained both dialects. But Albs were trying to unify that half nation given to them by big powers. To do so Albs had a congress who approved their Latin based alphabet ( a beautiful, easy, phonetic alphabet that kids learn in 2 months to read and write). They had to produce the books, so they could not have books in two dialects, that's why was decided to drop one. Decision was taken by linguists of the time. It could not be said that Hoxha did not influence the decision. Now 50 yrs after that decision to drop one dialect was taken Albs significantly have unified their language.
 
by the 5th century AD , there was no Roman......illyricum was settled by ostrogoths

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths#/media/File:Ostrogothic_Kingdom.png
The rise of the Huns around 370 overwhelmed the Gothic kingdoms.[18] Many of the Goths migrated into Roman territory in the Balkans, while others remained north of the Danube under Hunnic rule.


There was Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire. Albs were part of East. Huns raided Constantinople. Alb territories were largely unaffected by Huns. After 5 century ad Roman empire was terminated.
 

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