K12b North-African admixture in Europe (Dienekes K12b, 2012)

MOESAN · Jul 19, 2015

Johannes said:
Have you ever heard of "idealistic" portraits in paintings and sculpture???? If you do then you will know that the figures in most paintings and sculptures do not represent "real" reality. They are idealized. Get it? Just because you see a painting does not mean it represents actual reality. The Arabs could have been painted yellow or red and so does that mean they were yellow or red? Or what? do you think Arabs were white?[/QUOTE

Sorry but you are going a bit too far with your arguing: even if the "white" skin on these paintings could be exagerated to mark a contrast between the two populations, it remains the differences existed; if Arabs were black like their slaves, the only difference they would have put would be the dresses. Here they have different colours and differents features of face too. Egyptians also painted different colours of skin and it seems it was accurate enough to the ethnies they knew.

Angela · Jul 19, 2015

@Johannes,
Sometimes the line between "snarkiness" and personal insults is pretty fine, but the line is there, and you're crossing it. Cut it out.

Alan · Jul 20, 2015

Angela said:
I agree with all of that except that I think that in southwestern Yemen there might have been some East African admixture or let's say gene flow back and forth between Yemen and Ethiopia/Eritrea from very ancient times as well as in the modern era. Without ancient dna I don't know how it could be quantified.

See: Kingdom of Aksum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum

Still it seems that the majority of the admixture may indeed have taken place post the slave trade.

There are also "ethnic" distinctions within Yemen. There is a separate "untouchable" caste of uncertain origin, and there are indeed "mulatto" looking people with relatively recent admixture who are subject to their own kind of discrimination. I doubt that the Yemenis who were involved in the Islamic conquests would have looked like either of these groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Akhdam

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/op...ladeen-struggle-equal--20144415253333236.html

These are some plates of "Yemeni highlanders" I was quickly able to access. I'm sure that Moesan would know of more. I would think perhaps they would have looked more like this? The skin color is deceiving; everyone looks darker on these plates, and this is exposed skin. They don't look at all SSA.

They are also different from the "Arabs" further north or even Arabs like the members of the Saud family. Both the Yemeni type and the more perhaps "Caucasus" type would have been involved in the conquests.

Funny coincidence, the author of the article about discrimination of SSA Yemenites, who is Yemenite herself, basically looks like how ancient author described the ancient Arabs, a small statured "Mediterranean" type.

This must have been the type of farmer(early farmers with a stronger Red Sea shift because of some 10% East African admixture) which evolved among the originale Semites in southern Levant before leaving for the Arabian Peninsula.

This is probably how the original Yemenites who settled in the region predominanlty looked like.

Johannes · Jul 22, 2015

MOESAN said:
I was speaking about the general affiliation of former Arabs.
I agree too with what you wrote. In southwestern Yemen, it is very possible that since ancient times, a population close to East-African was there; the Arabs got down from North towards South, what explains their 'europoid' principal element, to answer to Johannes. The nomadic Bedawins in yemen seemed very endogame so they showed almost no SSA african element, 70 years ago. In other populations, sedentized, there was already a mix, not only with SSA or EA for someones but also with higher %s of brachycephalic 'europoid' maybe from North Near-East. I've not the needed knowledge about Arabia history to go into details. I red even the Mongols could have had a light imput in some parts of the great so called arab territories, before Turcs. The Saudis seem a bit more crossed than the Yemeni Bedawins with maybe some drifts from endogamy among their higher classes.
&; my feeling is that the true nod of first nomadic Arabs was not too far from the Sinai (could be confirmed by Y-E1b and Y-J1 subclades history?)

Please read posts 87 and 90. There it clearly explains that the Yemeni or southern Arabs had mixed with SSA since ancient times. Again I am not saying all looked like mulattoes -- some were but not all -- and many simply looked Semitic or Mediterranean. However, Yemenis have 80% or more J1!!! As the articles state, most of the SSA DNA came from females.

Johannes · Jul 22, 2015

MOESAN said:
Johannes said:

Have you ever heard of "idealistic" portraits in paintings and sculpture???? If you do then you will know that the figures in most paintings and sculptures do not represent "real" reality. They are idealized. Get it? Just because you see a painting does not mean it represents actual reality. The Arabs could have been painted yellow or red and so does that mean they were yellow or red? Or what? do you think Arabs were white?[/QUOTE

Sorry but you are going a bit too far with your arguing: even if the "white" skin on these paintings could be exagerated to mark a contrast between the two populations, it remains the differences existed; if Arabs were black like their slaves, the only difference they would have put would be the dresses. Here they have different colours and differents features of face too. Egyptians also painted different colours of skin and it seems it was accurate enough to the ethnies they knew.

Click to expand...

OK sorry for the criticism but sometimes I wonder why people look at statues or paintings -- for example of Greeks or Romans or whatever -- and think they represent reality! They do not! All they do is to try to represent an idealized imagination of the people they represent.

The Arabs in their height of power probably did not want to be represented as they were in their earlier times and tried to "idealize" their representations. For example, if the Arabs were in Spain or France they would have been represented as brown color by Europeans, but Arabs would have made themselves look "white" in order to try to pass as Europeans. White or light color represents power in almost every culture, except Africa. If you dont believe me why did all the Arab Caliphs of Spain married blond women and produced white -- blue--eyed--blond haired -- children after several generations?

LeBrok · Jul 22, 2015

Johannes said:
OK sorry for the criticism but sometimes I wonder why people look at statues or paintings -- for example of Greeks or Romans or whatever -- and think they represent reality! They do not! All they do is to try to represent an idealized imagination of the people they represent.

The Arabs in their height of power probably did not want to be represented as they were in their earlier times and tried to "idealize" their representations. For example, if the Arabs were in Spain or France they would have been represented as brown color by Europeans, but Arabs would have made themselves look "white" in order to try to pass as Europeans.

Assuming that Arabs viewed Europeans as a superior race. I'm sure it didn't look like it in Dark and Middle Ages.

White or light color represents power in almost every culture, except Africa. If you dont believe me why did all the Arab Caliphs of Spain married blond women and produced white -- blue--eyed--blond haired -- children after several generations?

Didn't they have harems of women, not just one wife forever? Wouldn't you like a variety in your harem and throw in few blonds? For them it was just an exotic look, looking like a barbarian and infidel from the north.

Drac II · Jul 22, 2015

Johannes said:
Please read posts 87 and 90. There it clearly explains that the Yemeni or southern Arabs had mixed with SSA since ancient times. Again I am not saying all looked like mulattoes -- some were but not all -- and many simply looked Semitic or Mediterranean. However, Yemenis have 80% or more J1!!! As the articles state, most of the SSA DNA came from females.

Which would fit with slavery as well. Plus the papers you linked also do not dismiss the quite large later slave trade.

Drac II · Jul 22, 2015

Johannes said:
OK sorry for the criticism but sometimes I wonder why people look at statues or paintings -- for example of Greeks or Romans or whatever -- and think they represent reality! They do not! All they do is to try to represent an idealized imagination of the people they represent.

The Arabs in their height of power probably did not want to be represented as they were in their earlier times and tried to "idealize" their representations. For example, if the Arabs were in Spain or France they would have been represented as brown color by Europeans, but Arabs would have made themselves look "white" in order to try to pass as Europeans. White or light color represents power in almost every culture, except Africa. If you dont believe me why did all the Arab Caliphs of Spain married blond women and produced white -- blue--eyed--blond haired -- children after several generations?

Maybe because anyone can plainly see that they look like the normal average humans who inhabit those areas. So no, they are not "idealized" anythings. People represented what they saw as best as they could. Even gods are often "humanized" in ancient art. Your type of argument would work in the case of gods with jackal heads or mythological half-human half-bull creatures, and the like obvious products of the imagination that nobody had actually seen to be able to try to portray them, but hardly with portrayals of actual people.

Arabs consistently portrayed themselves as people with Caucasian features all throughout their history. You seem to think this is some sort of weird conspiracy by the Arabs to try to "whiten" themselves, but it is simply a reflection of reality. Rest assured that if they had been Negroid or heavily admixed with Negroids, their own representations of themselves would look quite different from the ones shown in the previous pages. Let me know when you find an ancient Yemeni representation of a human with Negroid features. I still have to see even one.

Johannes · Jul 23, 2015

LeBrok said:
Assuming that Arabs viewed Europeans as a superior race. I'm sure it didn't look like it in Dark and Middle Ages.

Didn't they have harems of women, not just one wife forever? Wouldn't you like a variety in your harem and throw in few blonds? For them it was just an exotic look, looking like a barbarian and infidel from the north.

Arabs were grossly hypocritical. They had just graduated from being semi-barbaric camel drivers to conquerors and had absolutely no high culture. Their so called "superiority" was simply religious or they imagined themselves as superior (LOL). On the one hand they practiced endogamy and considered all white Europeans as inferior (sons of white women or muwalldun -- as they labeled them). But on the other hand when they wanted to steal the lands from the Goths and other Hispano-Romans they married almost exclusively Gothic women (most of Andalusi-Goths had been killed in battle) and then accepted the Nordic women as "Arabs." Thus, yes, Arabs considered Europeans as superior but at the same time as inferiors. By the 10th century the majority of the Arabs had disappeared as a phenotype. They had mixed mostly with Europeans. Then in the 13th century they were either exterminated or expelled or both.

Yes Arabs had harems but only if you were rich. It would have been extremely difficult for a common Berber or Arab to have a harem. If you were rich you could have four or maybe five women but not more. However, the caliph had hundreds of women but almost all were of Northern European origin.

LeBrok · Jul 23, 2015

Johannes said:
Arabs were grossly hypocritical. They had just graduated from being semi-barbaric camel drivers to conquerors and had absolutely no high culture. Their so called "superiority" was simply religious or they imagined themselves as superior (LOL).

I think you answered yourself:

On the one hand they practiced endogamy and considered all white Europeans as inferior (sons of white women or muwalldun they labeled them).

Even Amazon Jungle natives consider themselves chosen, special and a perfect race. Obviously the camel herders who became the lords of vast empire might felt superior and chosen by god.

But on the other hand when they wanted to steal the lands from the Goths and other Hispano-Romans they married almost exclusively Gothic women (most of Andalusi-Goths had been killed in battle) and then accepted the Nordic women as "Arabs." Thus, yes, Arabs considered Europeans as superior but at the same time as inferiors. By the 10th century the majority of the Arabs had disappeared as a phenotype. They had mixed mostly with Europeans. Then in the 13th century they were either exterminated or expelled or both.

Almost all marriages of rulers happened for alainces with neighbors and friends. If Goths were around, so be it with Goth's princesses.

Yes Arabs had harems but only if you were rich. It would have been extremely difficult for a common Berber or Arab to have a harem. If you were rich you could have four or maybe five women but not more.

I'm sure we were talking about the rich Arab rulers.

However, the caliph had hundreds of women but almost all were of Northern European origin.

I didn't know you have a medieval list of harem women by race and origin?

Johannes · Jul 23, 2015

Angela said:
@Johannes,
Sometimes the line between "snarkiness" and personal insults is pretty fine, but the line is there, and you're crossing it. Cut it out.

Isn't "snarkiness" what you use with me and others when you debate? or am I wrong?

LeBrok · Jul 23, 2015

Actually, here is a list of the top, honorary wives of Turkish Sultans. List doesn't include ordinary harem women though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_consorts_of_the_Ottoman_sultans
Most are locals and neighboring countries. Seems political reasons. I didn't even see one from Northern Europe. One is from Kingdom of Poland, but not blond.

Here is a picture of Turkish harem painted in 17 hundreds by a local artist. I must be blind, no blonds!

http://jeannepompadour.tumblr.com/post/70195809320/hammam-scene-from-the-zanan-nameh-by-fazil-yildiz

Angela · Jul 23, 2015

Descriptions of the "beloved" in Arabic love poetry are remarkably consistent: long, curling dark hair, large dark eyes, sometimes "white" skin, sometimes "bright" skin,
"as if the sun had thrown a mantle over it", deep red lips, small, white teeth, a long neck, and what could be described as a "voluptuous" body. (The descriptions are quite graphic.)

https://books.google.com/books?id=f...of female beauty in Arabic literature&f=false

That remained the case even after the conquest of Spain. In fact, there is a notation of a man being criticized by his friends for an "inappropriate" choice for falling in love with a blonde girl.

https://books.google.com/books?id=j8olAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=descriptions+of+female+beauty+in+medieval+Arabic+love+poetry&source=bl&ots=ywbYSZ1e94&sig=ifdWnJHZmYdANYng-yGN6xzU9RU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBWoVChMItOfVopDwxgIVyns-Ch0MBwK5#v=onepage&q=female%20beauty%20in%20medieval%20Arabic%20love%20poetry&f=false

Johannes · Jul 23, 2015

LeBrok said:
I'm sure we were talking about the rich Arab rulers. I didn't know you have a medieval list of harem women by race and origin?

I didn't just guess. It's obvious if you read the literature that Arabs in Spain preferred blonde-blue eyed women. Now if you want to be specific and try to find what every Arab did in every culture they occupied then you have to do research by yourself. Maybe the Arabs got their women from Atlantis? Or maybe from England, -- or better yet: Hollywood? :cool-v:

LeBrok · Jul 23, 2015

Johannes said:
I didn't just guess. It's obvious if you read the literature that Arabs in Spain preferred blonde-blue eyed women. Now if you want to be specific and try to find what every Arab did in every culture they occupied then you have to do research by yourself. Maybe the Arabs got their women from Atlantis? Or maybe from England, -- or better yet: Hollywood? :cool-v:

Somehow you got a wrong impression of reality, like you wanted this to happen. Perhaps, because personally you put blond girls much higher on the pedestal of beauty? However this is not a universal thing. Others perceive beauty differently.

Angela · Jul 23, 2015

Johannes said:
I didn't just guess. It's obvious if you read the literature that Arabs in Spain preferred blonde-blue eyed women. Now if you want to be specific and try to find what every Arab did in every culture they occupied then you have to do research by yourself. Maybe the Arabs got their women from Atlantis? Or maybe from England, -- or better yet: Hollywood? :cool-v:

Do you just ignore historical facts that don't support your own personal beliefs? See, from my prior post:

"Descriptions of the "beloved" in Arabic love poetry are remarkably consistent: long, curling dark hair, large dark eyes, sometimes "white" skin, sometimes "bright" skin,
"as if the sun had thrown a mantle over it", deep red lips, small, white teeth, a long neck, and what could be described as a "voluptuous" body. (The descriptions are quite graphic.)

https://books.google.com/books?id=fl...rature&f=false

That remained the case even after the conquest of Spain. In fact, there is a notation of a man being criticized by his friends for an "inappropriate" choice for falling in love with a blonde girl.

https://books.google.com/books?id=j8olAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=descript ions+of+female+beauty+in+medieval+Arabic+love+poet ry&source=bl&ots=ywbYSZ1e94&sig=ifdWnJHZmYdANYng-yGN6xzU9RU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBWoVChMItOfVopD wxgIVyns-Ch0MBwK5#v=onepage&q=female%20beauty%20in%20mediev al%20Arabic%20love%20poetry&f=false"

With propinquity I'm sure their standards started to become more all inclusive. That sometimes happens. It always happens when power relationships change.

Drac II · Jul 23, 2015

Angela said:
Do you just ignore historical facts that don't support your own personal beliefs? See, from my prior post:

"Descriptions of the "beloved" in Arabic love poetry are remarkably consistent: long, curling dark hair, large dark eyes, sometimes "white" skin, sometimes "bright" skin,
"as if the sun had thrown a mantle over it", deep red lips, small, white teeth, a long neck, and what could be described as a "voluptuous" body. (The descriptions are quite graphic.)

https://books.google.com/books?id=fl...rature&f=false

That remained the case even after the conquest of Spain. In fact, there is a notation of a man being criticized by his friends for an "inappropriate" choice for falling in love with a blonde girl.

https://books.google.com/books?id=j8olAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=descript ions+of+female+beauty+in+medieval+Arabic+love+poet ry&source=bl&ots=ywbYSZ1e94&sig=ifdWnJHZmYdANYng-yGN6xzU9RU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBWoVChMItOfVopD wxgIVyns-Ch0MBwK5#v=onepage&q=female%20beauty%20in%20mediev al%20Arabic%20love%20poetry&f=false"

With propinquity I'm sure their standards started to become more all inclusive. That sometimes happens. It always happens when power relationships change.

Based on the evidence cited in the linked source, I would actually go the next step and say that the Arab standard of beauty when it comes to skin tone was for the "white" (pale) skin tones. And we are not talking about the Arab aristocracy in Iberia, but about the Arabs from Arabia itself as well. This puts another heavy dent in Johannes' bizarre claims. If they had been dark skinned Negroids obviously Arabs would have had a preference for people with their own traits. In fact, Arabic literature is quite riddled with the opposite: extremely racist and offensive comments about black Africans.

Drac II · Jul 23, 2015

Angela said:
Do you just ignore historical facts that don't support your own personal beliefs? See, from my prior post:

"Descriptions of the "beloved" in Arabic love poetry are remarkably consistent: long, curling dark hair, large dark eyes, sometimes "white" skin, sometimes "bright" skin,
"as if the sun had thrown a mantle over it", deep red lips, small, white teeth, a long neck, and what could be described as a "voluptuous" body. (The descriptions are quite graphic.)

https://books.google.com/books?id=fl...rature&f=false

That remained the case even after the conquest of Spain. In fact, there is a notation of a man being criticized by his friends for an "inappropriate" choice for falling in love with a blonde girl.

https://books.google.com/books?id=j8olAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=descript ions+of+female+beauty+in+medieval+Arabic+love+poet ry&source=bl&ots=ywbYSZ1e94&sig=ifdWnJHZmYdANYng-yGN6xzU9RU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBWoVChMItOfVopD wxgIVyns-Ch0MBwK5#v=onepage&q=female%20beauty%20in%20mediev al%20Arabic%20love%20poetry&f=false"

With propinquity I'm sure their standards started to become more all inclusive. That sometimes happens. It always happens when power relationships change.

Based on the evidence cited in the linked source, I would actually go the next step and say that the Arab standard of beauty when it comes to skin pigmentation was for the "white" (pale) skin tones. And we are not talking just about the Arab aristocracy in Iberia, but about the Arabs from Arabia itself as well. This puts another heavy dent in Johannes' bizarre claims. If they had been dark skinned Negroids obviously Arabs would have had a preference for people with their own traits. In fact, Arabic literature is quite riddled with the opposite: extremely racist and offensive comments about black Africans.

Johannes · Jul 24, 2015

Drac II said:
Based on the evidence cited in the linked source, I would actually go the next step and say that the Arab standard of beauty when it comes to skin pigmentation was for the "white" (pale) skin tones. And we are not talking just about the Arab aristocracy in Iberia, but about the Arabs from Arabia itself as well. This puts another heavy dent in Johannes' bizarre claims. If they had been dark skinned Negroids obviously Arabs would have had a preference for people with their own traits. In fact, Arabic literature is quite riddled with the opposite: extremely racist and offensive comments about black Africans.

You are always distorting what I say or don't pay attention. I never said Arabs were all black. I don't know why you keep harping about this. I only said that some Yemenis probably had some people that looked like mulattoes. This is why I showed you the pictures. But you distort everything and then accuse me of saying they were all black. All I know is that in Andalusia or Spain the Arab nobility preferred northern girls with white skin, blue yes, and blond hair. That's is all. I hope you finally get it and stop trying to distort my statements.

Johannes · Jul 24, 2015

Angela said:
Do you just ignore historical facts that don't support your own personal beliefs? See, from my prior post:

"Descriptions of the "beloved" in Arabic love poetry are remarkably consistent: long, curling dark hair, large dark eyes, sometimes "white" skin, sometimes "bright" skin,
"as if the sun had thrown a mantle over it", deep red lips, small, white teeth, a long neck, and what could be described as a "voluptuous" body. (The descriptions are quite graphic.)

https://books.google.com/books?id=fl...rature&f=false

That remained the case even after the conquest of Spain. In fact, there is a notation of a man being criticized by his friends for an "inappropriate" choice for falling in love with a blonde girl.

https://books.google.com/books?id=j8olAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=descript ions+of+female+beauty+in+medieval+Arabic+love+poet ry&source=bl&ots=ywbYSZ1e94&sig=ifdWnJHZmYdANYng-yGN6xzU9RU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBWoVChMItOfVopD wxgIVyns-Ch0MBwK5#v=onepage&q=female%20beauty%20in%20mediev al%20Arabic%20love%20poetry&f=false"

With propinquity I'm sure their standards started to become more all inclusive. That sometimes happens. It always happens when power relationships change.

OK I see where the problem is: I meant Arab nobility not common Arabs. This happened in Spain. I am sure it might have been different with the Turks. But who knows?

K12b North-African admixture in Europe (Dienekes K12b, 2012)

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