Reich and Krause in the same boat

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Some blogs (yes, that one) are getting their heads around it: As per latest Reich book, he thinks PIE was in South Caucasus. Like Johannes Krause had also shown last year as his believe . I am sure in time “everybody already knew”. Even steppe fanatics.

Let me state again, for future memory, what I have been saying for long.
  1. PIE arised in 6th millennia BC in a culture called the Shulaveri SHomu. “My” Shulaveri Shomu.
  2. When Shulaveri disappeared from south Caucasus in 4900 bc some went to the steppe. Some went back west, to places like Fikirtepe (North Anatolia) and even back to Balkans (where I think they came 7000bc). Some stood and integrated later Kura Araxes, some went south, as south as to Merimde beni salama in the Nile delta.
  3. Shulaveri admix for over a millennia with Chokh people which were pure CHG, descendants of Kotias. These, the more admix with CHG Chokh, were the ones in places such as Palui, Anasueli. Kotias Klde, darkveti and Nagutini. by 4900bc, had loads of CHG. Very shortly after were seen up the Kuban river into the steppe. In contrast with the ones in Armenia (Aratashen and Arknashen) that might have been less CHG.


Oh, and by the way, they were R1b, M269, and by 4900bc full L23… (and everyone seem to avoid looking into their Mtdna H2a, H15a, I1.)
 
I think that's a very plausible hypothesis. I have long thought that the earliest form of PIE had at least a deep influence from a western EEF or a southern ANF/CHG people who probably brought the R1b-M269 clades to the steppe, even if its ultimate form had developed within the Pontic-Caspian steppe in interaction with the native mostly R1a-bearing tribes.

But I thought they could've had something to do with Sredny Stog and its known cultural exchanges with the Balkanic Neolithic cultures, especially since we know R1b was present since a long time ago in the Balkans... anyway, it's not that hard for me to simply change the course and assume that, instead of just being a significant substrate or adstrate influence in PIE, the R1b language prevailed (and the R1a EHG language was the substrate).

If that is sufficiently proved, I'll be cool with that, but I think it is at least almost certain that the environment that created Early PIE was not "pure", but the result of heavy mixing and cultural/linguistic mutual exchanges between steppe peoples and agricultural peoples on the borders of the steppe (Balkans? South Caucasus? Maybe, as you suggest, a people who had links with both regions, in Transcaucasia but ultimately from the Balkans? We'll see). Maybe the profound grammatical and phonetic transformations we see in non-Anatolian IE are the result of heavy substratal influence from native steppe tribes who adopted Early PIE but infused it with much of their own vocabulary and syntax?
 
I think that's a very plausible hypothesis. I have long thought that the earliest form of PIE had at least a deep influence from a western EEF or a southern ANF/CHG people who probably brought the R1b-M269 clades to the steppe, even if its ultimate form had developed within the Pontic-Caspian steppe in interaction with the native mostly R1a-bearing tribes.


The way I see it Protoindoeuropeans (from south the Caucasus) had both R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 (Together with J2), R1a is deeply rooted in that Iran-Caucasus region as Underhill 2014 shows. it's just that the original range of PIE had an internal division with the western Centum part heavy in R1b-M269 and the eastern Satem part R1a-M417.
 
So you think that originally, before admixing with mostly CHG peoples, the R1b Shulaveri-Shomu were mostly EHG, in order to explain the mainly EHG/CHG makeup of later Yamnaya people? Would they have avoided any intermixing with the Anatolian/Early European farmers for milennia since they migrated from the Balkans?
 
The way I see it Protoindoeuropeans (from south the Caucasus) had both R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 (Together with J2), R1a is deeply rooted in that Iran-Caucasus region as Underhill 2014 shows. it's just that the original range of PIE had an internal division with the western Centum part heavy in R1b-M269 and the eastern Satem part R1a-M417.

But if that were the case we'd have to assume that the South Caucasus was already quite well connected to the steppes way before the late Neolithic/early Bronze Age. I mean, several R1a, including R1a-M417, have been found at very early dates in the Ukrainian/Russian steppes even several hundreds of kilometers north of the Caucasus, so we'd have to explain how the EHG had a large proportion of Y-DNA very similar to that of South Caucasians, but mostly just R1a (though we've seen a rare J even further north in Karelia before the Bronze Age, didn't we?). Were those South Caucasians then already a mix of CHG with something EHG-like, even before reaching the steppes?
 
several R1a, including R1a-M417, have been found at very early dates in the Ukrainian/Russian steppes even several hundreds of kilometers north of the Caucasus

Sure, neighboring populations had somewhat similar haplogroups. However EHG Steppe people all had non-IE R1a, R1a-M417 starts shows up in the eneolithic Steppe only together with CHG-related admixture.
 
There is nothing surprising there. I already wrote in 2009 that R1b-M269 originated in the region of eastern Anatolia and the South Caucasus and that it crossed into the Pontic Steppe during the Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic.

The real question is whether we can consider Chalcolithic R1b tribes from the South Caucasus as Proto-Indo-European, or a more primitive form of pre-PIE? I'd say the latter because PIE vocabulary is definitely Steppe-based and includes words for horses and related equipment, which wasn't present in Shulaveri Shomu. Besides, it presupposes that PIE people were exclusively R1b-M269, before they mixed with R1a and I2a2a people in the Steppe (and G2a-U1 farmers from the Late Trypillian who abandoned their towns and joined the Yamna people as nomads). So I think that from a linguistic point of view and in terms of ethnogenesis, PIE equates Yamna and Maykop, while anything before (Khvalynsk, Shulaveri Shomu) are the "building blocks" for PIE.
 
There is nothing surprising there. I already wrote in 2009 that R1b-M269 originated in the region of eastern Anatolia and the South Caucasus and that it crossed into the Pontic Steppe during the Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic.
The real question is whether we can consider Chalcolithic R1b tribes from the South Caucasus as Proto-Indo-European, or a more primitive form of pre-PIE? I'd say the latter because PIE vocabulary is definitely Steppe-based and includes words for horses and related equipment, which wasn't present in Shulaveri Shomu. Besides, it presupposes that PIE people were exclusively R1b-M269, before they mixed with R1a and I2a2a people in the Steppe (and G2a-U1 farmers from the Late Trypillian who abandoned their towns and joined the Yamna people as nomads). So I think that from a linguistic point of view and in terms of ethnogenesis, PIE equates Yamna and Maykop, while anything before (Khvalynsk, Shulaveri Shomu) are the "building blocks" for PIE.

The hittites were Indo european too, yet they didn't have the shared 'steppe' vocabulary youre talking about. That does not make them less IE. They just got their version of IE from an earlier source(not from the steppe dialects). A source like shulaveri-shomu maybe. That kinda makes shulaveri-shomu IE too(at least according to Reich and Krause). And in turn, that makes it hard for the steppe IE to be proto-IE(as something cant be 'proto', if something else came before them). In other words, you cant be the first at something, if someone has already done it before you.

Maybe what you mean is that the steppe was the first place where IE langauges received input from non-IE steppe languages.

For now it seems most likely R1b and J2b spread IE to the steppe in the first place. Whatever tweaks happened to the IE languages of the steppe upon arrival
(uralic influence etc.), is less relevant in terms of proto-indo-european discussions.
 
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for those who think R1b-M269 crossed the Caucasus to get to the Pontic steppe, I think it is strange we don't find any in early Armenian
afaik the earliest is the Yamna R1b-Z2103 and it postdates Yamna

if the PIE was in Transkaukasia, it is not sure they were R1b-M269

as for the Hittites, bear in mind that it was a multilinqual, multi-ethnical empire under IE leadership
proof of that is to be found in the multilingual library of Hatussa
it was not a solid block like Egypt, it was more a confederacy of semi-autonomous tribes paying tribute to the Hittite kings
every time the Hittite king went to war, he had to ask a military contingency from each of these tribes
that made the empire weak every time there was a dispute over succession

the Hittite empire came to existence when a small IE tribe conquered the land of the Hatti, who were non-IE
before that the Assyrians had their own free-trade zone in the land of the Hatti, maybe even a colony

but weren't there other languages of the 'Anatolian branch' like e.g. Luwian?
 
for those who think R1b-M269 crossed the Caucasus to get to the Pontic steppe, I think it is strange we don't find any in early Armenian
afaik the earliest is the Yamna R1b-Z2103 and it postdates Yamna

if the PIE was in Transkaukasia, it is not sure they were R1b-M269

as for the Hittites, bear in mind that it was a multilinqual, multi-ethnical empire under IE leadership
proof of that is to be found in the multilingual library of Hatussa
it was not a solid block like Egypt, it was more a confederacy of semi-autonomous tribes paying tribute to the Hittite kings
every time the Hittite king went to war, he had to ask a military contingency from each of these tribes
that made the empire weak every time there was a dispute over succession

the Hittite empire came to existence when a small IE tribe conquered the land of the Hatti, who were non-IE
before that the Assyrians had their own free-trade zone in the land of the Hatti, maybe even a colony

but weren't there other languages of the 'Anatolian branch' like e.g. Luwian?


We have to wait for the updates-

https://kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b_xP312xU106_V.38.1.pdf

these are M269 that we know currently


ATP3, El Portalón (Spain), 5466-5312 calBPI0371, Grachevka II, Sok River, Samara (Russia) 2875-2580 calBCE(Beta 392488)I0439,Lopatino I, Sok River, Samara (Russia) 3305-2925 calBCE (Beta 392491)I1530, Rothenschirmbach (Germany),2345-2198 calBCE (Er8715) MC337A, Monte Canelas (Portugal), Late Neolithic/ChalcolithicRISE276, Trundholm mose II (Denmark), 794-547 calBCE (OxA-30485)RISE47, Sebber skole (Denmark), 1499-1324 calBCE (OxA-28258)RISE546, Temrta IV (Russia) Yamnaya_KalmykiaRISE560, Augsburg (Germany), Bell_Beaker_LN
 
There's still the problem of R1a and their satem. I find it hard to believe that R1a gradually "turned IE" as far north as the Urals simply because of the prestige of the language in the open steppe down south. I think R1a and R1b were neighbors somewhere east of the Caspian, with R1a up north around Aral, and R1b somewhere in Turkmenistan. Their languages must have been close or the same. R1a moved northwest round the Caspian and went satem. R1b went round the south Caspian with stops around Lake Van and/or the Kura valley, and picked Southwest-Asian and Caucasus admixture on the way. Shulaveri Shomu fits in well.
Whether some R1b went west as Hittites while or before the others crossed the Caucasus to the steppe, I have no idea. But it would certainly explain why IE hittites had no steppe vocab (for which I'll take your word).
 
@HrvcLv

I do not think so
there are Centum languages with R1a
 
There is nothing surprising there. I already wrote in 2009 that R1b-M269 originated in the region of eastern Anatolia and the South Caucasus and that it crossed into the Pontic Steppe during the Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic.

The real question is whether we can consider Chalcolithic R1b tribes from the South Caucasus as Proto-Indo-European, or a more primitive form of pre-PIE? I'd say the latter because PIE vocabulary is definitely Steppe-based and includes words for horses and related equipment, which wasn't present in Shulaveri Shomu. Besides, it presupposes that PIE people were exclusively R1b-M269, before they mixed with R1a and I2a2a people in the Steppe (and G2a-U1 farmers from the Late Trypillian who abandoned their towns and joined the Yamna people as nomads). So I think that from a linguistic point of view and in terms of ethnogenesis, PIE equates Yamna and Maykop, while anything before (Khvalynsk, Shulaveri Shomu) are the "building blocks" for PIE.

That's very reasonable. But let me know, do you think the core of lexicon and grammar of PIE was already firmly established before it crossed into the steppes and wasn't severely transformed by the later assimilation of other peoples (much like Spanish in heavily Amerindian Hispanic states, like Peru), or do you instead guess that the Pre-PIE language was very different and mixed heavily with the local steppe languages to the point of becoming almost unrecognizable after centuries (that would be more like English in its interaction with French, or the probable situation Armenian after interacting with and assimilating Hurro-Urartian speakers)?
 
We have to wait for the updates-


I don’t think we need to wait, b/c M269 people should be close to M73 people. Likewise Z282 people to be close with z93.
It seems to me that family feud or abraham and his nephew, “ you choose west, I go east or south”
I mean IE people be close to Ural people.

By the way, I have one question. Even if anatoilan IE 4,000BC and tocharian one 3,700bc had common words with modern IE, does it mean that they would speak IE also?
 
good news, only I would like to know the main active of the antisteppitis pills.

Let's see now how much time endures this new southern trend for PIE.
 
I don’t think we need to wait, b/c M269 people should be close to M73 people. Likewise Z282 people to be close with z93.
It seems to me that family feud or abraham and his nephew, “ you choose west, I go east or south”
I mean IE people be close to Ural people.

By the way, I have one question. Even if anatoilan IE 4,000BC and tocharian one 3,700bc had common words with modern IE, does it mean that they would speak IE also?

Good point M73 and M269 (as a pair)are only found near Steppe regions. As far as Tocharian, perhaps it is related to Afanasievo, maybe R1b-Z2103,--- Anatolian nobody knows.
Here is a schematic from the golden oldies section, we now know V88 in Europe etc.... Yamnaya R1b-Z2103-Z2106-Z2108-KMS 67 and KMS75 (near sites like prior to Arkaim-Sintashta and after )for 5000 years

R1b-tree.gif



z2103_r1b_paleo_dna.png


25r2nwj.jpg
 
There is nothing surprising there. I already wrote in 2009 that R1b-M269 originated in the region of eastern Anatolia and the South Caucasus and that it crossed into the Pontic Steppe during the Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic.
I don't know whether they crossed the Caucasus mt. But I think CHG used the other route of central Asia.


EHG group introduced the supine burial position in East Europe like typical lake baikal burial type with mtDNA C and lake baikal pottery. The pottery type was also found in Hotu Cave of Hg J, which was in EHG.


looks like EHG language and CHG language were mixing to produce IE in the triangle zone of lake baikal, hotu, and Karelia.(EHG had CHG J, and later yamna had EHG and CHG genes, which means such a long time mixing process to bear IE)
Capture.png

ha.png
[/QUOTE]


@berun,

Even if anatoilan IE 4,000BC and tocharian one 3,700bc had common words with modern IE, does it mean that they would speak IE also?
 
I don't know whether they crossed the Caucasus mt. But I think CHG used the other route of central Asia.


EHG group introduced the supine burial position in East Europe like typical lake baikal burial type with mtDNA C and lake baikal pottery. The pottery type was also found in Hotu Cave of Hg J, which was in EHG.


looks like EHG language and CHG language were mixing to produce IE in the triangle zone of lake baikal, hotu, and Karelia.(EHG had CHG J, and later yamna had EHG and CHG genes, which means such a long time mixing process to bear IE)
Capture.png

ha.png



@berun,

Even if anatoilan IE 4,000BC and tocharian one 3,700bc had common words with modern IE, does it mean that they would speak IE also?


just a question,

if tomorow they found a pure IE population/civilization
that has 1% Steppe admixture
what you would say?
 
@johen, Tocharian and Anatolian languages share words but above all such words provide evidence of an inner evolution from PIE words, just like French from Latin, by that such languages are considered IE. The dates provided arent right.
 
Ok

I founded,

just for the linguistic purpose,
and possible compination of genetics,
I repeat possible cause every year, new search and data and results and ..
may change our view , till after a solid package of data we crystalize our thesis

the most modern aproach seems to be this,

migration.jpg



and not this

indo_european.jpg



and next year I am even expect more as far as concerns some linguistic families of Europe.
 

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