Genetic study Large-Scale Migration into Southern Britain During the Middle to Late Bronze Age.

Riverman said:
La Tene is the Gauls and La Tene is the only culture which can be clearly linked with the Celtic ethnicity, unlike Urnfield or Hallstatt, which had different archaeological groups and were most likely multi-ethnic. La Tene is THE classically Celtic culture. Hallstatt was not, not even for the Celtic parts of it, because La Tene was a cultural and social revolution, even in the Western Celtic territories, were old aristocratic upper classes and religious ideas were destroyed and replaced by new ones. Many associate that with Greek ideas, because in Greece there were at that time new social phenomenons and (democratic) ideas as well. Hallstatt was strictly hiearchic, most likely like a caste society and in some regions even different elements in the upper class than in the common populace.
We can also see that there were pockets of old Hallstatt groups, which seem to have been conquered, destroyed or assimilated by the La Tene Celts. So this was a very clear divide. Like in Central Germany, there was a whole belt of conservative Hallstatt cultural elements with huge fortifications. They were destroyed in a huge pincer movement of La Tene Celts and Jastorf Germanics. This is also when (proper) Celts and Germanics came in very direct contact the first time. The Northern part was taken by the Germanics, the Southern by the expanding La Tene Celts.
Click to expand...

You have a very precise and seemingly very well documented narrative, about Y-E-V13,Channeled Ware, Hallstatt and so on ; I'm just cautious about the interpretations of all these cultural changes and both their demic causes and consequences. Concerning the quasi destruction of Hallstatt in West by Gaulish Celts and first Germanics I would be glad to have some more supporting clues. These cultural changes are surely linked to some demic moves, but in my mind, I see Celts in these region before Hallstatt and before LaTène. I see more inter-elites exchanges than allover populational changes in West. In West, in place of huge genetic new arrivals after Chalco I see rather progressive osmosis between ethnies and tribes (evidently, not an allover level one, and rather females mediated yet?). Hallstatt is somewhat intrusive in West (N-Alps and around) but not a complete turnover in pop's auDNA, LaTène even less. The Elites were prone to exchanges of prestige goods and personal weapons, and they could sometimes loan the service of foreign technicians for buildings, or foreign artists for some decorative goods;
the sociological/political analysis of the UF/Hallstatt/LaTène period of moves and changes needs knowledge I have not, but since BA we are no more in a pure invasion/replacement model; destructions could be more social sometimes than ethnic, even if one can intensify an other. More my personal interrogations than a sound affirmation.
 
@Riverman. I'm a bit expeditive in my comments, spite yourself was moderate in your last post. My first aim was to propose LaTène/Western Hallstatt late conflicts were intra-Celts conflict, as a whole.
 
MOESAN said:
You have a very precise and seemingly very well documented narrative, about Y-E-V13,Channeled Ware, Hallstatt and so on ; I'm just cautious about the interpretations of all these cultural changes and both their demic causes and consequences. Concerning the quasi destruction of Hallstatt in West by Gaulish Celts and first Germanics I would be glad to have some more supporting clues. These cultural changes are surely linked to some demic moves, but in my mind, I see Celts in these region before Hallstatt and before LaTène. I see more inter-elites exchanges than allover populational changes in West. In West, in place of huge genetic new arrivals after Chalco I see rather progressive osmosis between ethnies and tribes (evidently, not an allover level one, and rather females mediated yet?). Hallstatt is somewhat intrusive in West (N-Alps and around) but not a complete turnover in pop's auDNA, LaTène even less. The Elites were prone to exchanges of prestige goods and personal weapons, and they could sometimes loan the service of foreign technicians for buildings, or foreign artists for some decorative goods;
the sociological/political analysis of the UF/Hallstatt/LaTène period of moves and changes needs knowledge I have not, but since BA we are no more in a pure invasion/replacement model; destructions could be more social sometimes than ethnic, even if one can intensify an other. More my personal interrogations than a sound affirmation.
Click to expand...

The issue is, that we actually see a constant flow of individuals, especially elites, from Basarabi to Eastern Hallstatt groups, especially Fr?g and Kalenderberg, and from there going on. All the iron metal working and new types of weapons first came from Channelled Ware, Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, then Basarabi in an East -> West movement.
La Tene is a very fundamental, revolutionary change, as it was rising up exactly when the Eastern Hallstatt sphere was going down. What we do know is that some elites might have been slaughtered in the later Celtic sphere, some temples and princely seats burned to the ground. Idols, symbols of the old belief and elite destroyed, a quite big change in customs and style - everything happening in the Hallstatt -> La Tene transition.
In some parts of the Benelux and Central Germany, a more conservative group which wasn't at first affected by the La Tene power shift and revolution, was persisting and blocked the Germanics from direct contact and access to the La Tene world. This really just changed when they, like decribed before, together crushed those Hallstatt remains in Benelux and Germany.
We don't know what the people in these Hallstatt groups spoke, we don't know what pre-La Tene Hallstatt people from Noricum were. Probably they were Celts, or Para-Celts, or something different - or one thing here, another there. But what we do know is that the elite in Hallstatt was very strongly influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerians, Daco-Thracians and Pannonians, by Greek culture and influences, more so than La Tene. This means La Tene is in any case "more purely Celtic". And typically, in the core regions of the Celts, some of the haplogroups go down, which being more common in Hallstatt core zones, this includes E-V13. They are there, because there were also spread into Western Hallstatt, but on a lower level and again reduced by this massive shift, from a East -> West flow to the West -> East flow with La Tene.
This is rather exceptional, because how many examples from prehistory are known? Usually it was always going East -> West. Bell Beakers, La Tene Celts and early Romans are rather exceptional. If you think about it, how many population movements came from Iberia, how many ended up there? The difference is huge.
 
Riverman said:
La Tene
Click to expand...
Do you know where celtic head-hunting culture originated in?
I think it is not so much different from scythian culture.
-
Diodorus Siculus, in his 1st-century History had this to say about Celtic head-hunting:
"They cut off the heads of enemies slain in battle and attach them to the necks of their horses. The blood-stained spoils they hand over to their attendants and striking up a paean and singing a song of victory; and they nail up these first fruits upon their houses, just as do those who lay low wild animals in certain kinds of hunting. They embalm in cedar oil the heads of the most distinguished enemies, and preserve them carefully in a chest, and display them with pride to strangers, saying that for this head one of their ancestors, or his father, or the man himself, refused the offer of a large sum of money. They say that some of them boast that they refused the weight of the head in gold."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts


- I think the following cultures seems to originte in steppe:
[h=3]China[/h]During the Spring and Autumn period and Warring States period, Qin soldiers frequently collected their defeated enemies' heads as a means to accumulate merits. After Shang Yang's reforms, the Qin armies adopted a meritocracy system that awards the average soldiers, most of whom were conscripted serfs and were not paid, an opportunity to earn promotions and rewards from their superiors by collecting the heads of enemies, a type of body count. In this area, authorities also displayed heads of executed criminals in public spaces up to the early 20th century.
[h=3]Japan[/h]


​

Tom O'Neill wrote:
Samurai also sought glory by headhunting. When a battle ended, the warrior, true to his mercenary origins, would ceremoniously present trophy heads to a general, who would variously reward him with promotions in rank, gold or silver, or land from the defeated clan. Generals displayed the heads of defeated rivals in public squares.[20]
​
 
Riverman said:
The issue is, that we actually see a constant flow of individuals, especially elites, from Basarabi to Eastern Hallstatt groups, especially Fr�g and Kalenderberg, and from there going on. All the iron metal working and new types of weapons first came from Channelled Ware, Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, then Basarabi in an East -> West movement.
La Tene is a very fundamental, revolutionary change, as it was rising up exactly when the Eastern Hallstatt sphere was going down. What we do know is that some elites might have been slaughtered in the later Celtic sphere, some temples and princely seats burned to the ground. Idols, symbols of the old belief and elite destroyed, a quite big change in customs and style - everything happening in the Hallstatt -> La Tene transition.
In some parts of the Benelux and Central Germany, a more conservative group which wasn't at first affected by the La Tene power shift and revolution, was persisting and blocked the Germanics from direct contact and access to the La Tene world. This really just changed when they, like decribed before, together crushed those Hallstatt remains in Benelux and Germany.
We don't know what the people in these Hallstatt groups spoke, we don't know what pre-La Tene Hallstatt people from Noricum were. Probably they were Celts, or Para-Celts, or something different - or one thing here, another there. But what we do know is that the elite in Hallstatt was very strongly influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerians, Daco-Thracians and Pannonians, by Greek culture and influences, more so than La Tene. This means La Tene is in any case "more purely Celtic". And typically, in the core regions of the Celts, some of the haplogroups go down, which being more common in Hallstatt core zones, this includes E-V13. They are there, because there were also spread into Western Hallstatt, but on a lower level and again reduced by this massive shift, from a East -> West flow to the West -> East flow with La Tene.
This is rather exceptional, because how many examples from prehistory are known? Usually it was always going East -> West. Bell Beakers, La Tene Celts and early Romans are rather exceptional. If you think about it, how many population movements came from Iberia, how many ended up there? The difference is huge.
Click to expand...

it depends on the perspective.

Aurignacian dna ( proto ANE) was likely an eastward movement from more western location (Goyet like) in Europe ( and it reached all the way to north east Siberia)
WHG repopulated the continent from the south and again it was mostly a west to east movement.
EEF is a south to north movement but the most succesful of the EEF ( atlanto -mediterranean GAC/TRB like) was again a west to east movement.


europeans are ANE/WHG/EEF with steppe being just a combination of the three
culturally europeans are mostly a roman/greek construct. South to north in this case.
 
johen said:
Do you know where celtic head-hunting culture originated in?
I think it is not so much different from scythian culture.
-
Diodorus Siculus, in his 1st-century History had this to say about Celtic head-hunting:
"They cut off the heads of enemies slain in battle and attach them to the necks of their horses. The blood-stained spoils they hand over to their attendants and striking up a paean and singing a song of victory; and they nail up these first fruits upon their houses, just as do those who lay low wild animals in certain kinds of hunting. They embalm in cedar oil the heads of the most distinguished enemies, and preserve them carefully in a chest, and display them with pride to strangers, saying that for this head one of their ancestors, or his father, or the man himself, refused the offer of a large sum of money. They say that some of them boast that they refused the weight of the head in gold."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts


- I think the following cultures seems to originte in steppe:
China

During the Spring and Autumn period and Warring States period, Qin soldiers frequently collected their defeated enemies' heads as a means to accumulate merits. After Shang Yang's reforms, the Qin armies adopted a meritocracy system that awards the average soldiers, most of whom were conscripted serfs and were not paid, an opportunity to earn promotions and rewards from their superiors by collecting the heads of enemies, a type of body count. In this area, authorities also displayed heads of executed criminals in public spaces up to the early 20th century.
Japan



​

Tom O'Neill wrote:
Samurai also sought glory by headhunting. When a battle ended, the warrior, true to his mercenary origins, would ceremoniously present trophy heads to a general, who would variously reward him with promotions in rank, gold or silver, or land from the defeated clan. Generals displayed the heads of defeated rivals in public squares.[20]
​
Click to expand...

Yes, that's correct, and La Tene Celts surely had many Scythian derived influences, most likely transmitted via Thraco-Scythian contacts over Pannnonia-Southern Germany. However, I wouldn't emphasize head hunting too much, because it was a fairly common practise in many people throughout the world, some of which not even Eurasian.
 
While investigating the E-V13 samples, I came across what might be a Bronze Age North Pannonian cluster, possibly related to Unetice and F?zesabony. In detail I wrote about it from this post on:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...kan-case/page8?p=634475&viewfull=1#post634475

The cluster is fairly close in the modern context, right on the borderline between Germanic and Slavic. Any opinions on the samples, their coverage and the haplogroups assigned - looks unreliable for some:

Others close to F?zesabony are:

Top:
Celtic_paper:I25525 0.02440513 (H-FT328400) (closest to Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, still inside German range)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-FT328400/
Celtic_paper:I12106 0.02489549 (I-Y199009) (closest to Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, outside German range)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y199009/
Celtic_paper:I17322 0.02893993 (J-Y16464) (closest to Swedish, 3rd is Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, outside German range)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y16464/
Celtic_paper:I16272 0.03078742 (E-Z1057 / E-V13) (closest to Austrian and East German, plots in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, solidly in the German range)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z1057/

Also:

Celtic_paper:I7964 0.03253927 (G-M3146)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-M3146/
Celtic_paper:I11719 0.03283871 (H-M6344)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-M6344/
Celtic_paper:I18183 0.03398289 (CT)
Celtic_paper:I2448 0.03485399 (R-CTS6919)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS6919/
Celtic_paper:I15646 0.03490963 (I-S6635)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S6635/
Celtic_paper:I14188 0.03518577 (R-L2)
Celtic_paper:I5287 0.03563537 (R-Y30815)
Celtic_paper:I13780 0.03566515 (R-YP5267)
Celtic_paper:I14863 0.03593852 (R-L21)

That's a very high fraction of Neolithic yDNA in the top 6 results, especially of haplogroup H, based on the results teapean47 posted:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...t-al-in-review&p=812982&viewfull=1#post812982
Unfortunately some of the results might be not as reliable, since their coverage is rather low.

The top 4 in the Northern European plot:
F-zesabony-like.jpg


https://ibb.co/CWZfRRh


They are also very close in their basic components:
Screenshot-2021-11-08-150157.jpg


https://ibb.co/tPR6k8y
 
Riverman said:
While investigating the E-V13 samples, I came across what might be a Bronze Age North Pannonian cluster, possibly related to Unetice and F�zesabony. In detail I wrote about it from this post on:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...kan-case/page8?p=634475&viewfull=1#post634475

The cluster is fairly close in the modern context, right on the borderline between Germanic and Slavic. Any opinions on the samples, their coverage and the haplogroups assigned - looks unreliable for some:

Others close to F�zesabony are:

Top:
Celtic_paper:I25525 0.02440513 (H-FT328400) (closest to Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, still inside German range)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-FT328400/
Celtic_paper:I12106 0.02489549 (I-Y199009) (closest to Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, outside German range)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y199009/
Celtic_paper:I17322 0.02893993 (J-Y16464) (closest to Swedish, 3rd is Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, outside German range)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y16464/
Celtic_paper:I16272 0.03078742 (E-Z1057 / E-V13) (closest to Austrian and East German, plots in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, solidly in the German range)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z1057/

Also:

Celtic_paper:I7964 0.03253927 (G-M3146)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-M3146/
Celtic_paper:I11719 0.03283871 (H-M6344)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-M6344/
Celtic_paper:I18183 0.03398289 (CT)
Celtic_paper:I2448 0.03485399 (R-CTS6919)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS6919/
Celtic_paper:I15646 0.03490963 (I-S6635)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S6635/
Celtic_paper:I14188 0.03518577 (R-L2)
Celtic_paper:I5287 0.03563537 (R-Y30815)
Celtic_paper:I13780 0.03566515 (R-YP5267)
Celtic_paper:I14863 0.03593852 (R-L21)

That's a very high fraction of Neolithic yDNA in the top 6 results, especially of haplogroup H, based on the results teapean47 posted:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...t-al-in-review&p=812982&viewfull=1#post812982
Unfortunately some of the results might be not as reliable, since their coverage is rather low.

The top 4 in the Northern European plot:
F-zesabony-like.jpg


https://ibb.co/CWZfRRh


They are also very close in their basic components:
Screenshot-2021-11-08-150157.jpg


https://ibb.co/tPR6k8y
Click to expand...


Celts look like all eastern alps area ( halstatt ) and even maybe some Przeworsk culture
 
Riverman said:
The issue is, that we actually see a constant flow of individuals, especially elites, from Basarabi to Eastern Hallstatt groups, especially Fr�g and Kalenderberg, and from there going on. All the iron metal working and new types of weapons first came from Channelled Ware, Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, then Basarabi in an East -> West movement.
La Tene is a very fundamental, revolutionary change, as it was rising up exactly when the Eastern Hallstatt sphere was going down. What we do know is that some elites might have been slaughtered in the later Celtic sphere, some temples and princely seats burned to the ground. Idols, symbols of the old belief and elite destroyed, a quite big change in customs and style - everything happening in the Hallstatt -> La Tene transition.
In some parts of the Benelux and Central Germany, a more conservative group which wasn't at first affected by the La Tene power shift and revolution, was persisting and blocked the Germanics from direct contact and access to the La Tene world. This really just changed when they, like decribed before, together crushed those Hallstatt remains in Benelux and Germany.
We don't know what the people in these Hallstatt groups spoke, we don't know what pre-La Tene Hallstatt people from Noricum were. Probably they were Celts, or Para-Celts, or something different - or one thing here, another there. But what we do know is that the elite in Hallstatt was very strongly influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerians, Daco-Thracians and Pannonians, by Greek culture and influences, more so than La Tene. This means La Tene is in any case "more purely Celtic". And typically, in the core regions of the Celts, some of the haplogroups go down, which being more common in Hallstatt core zones, this includes E-V13. They are there, because there were also spread into Western Hallstatt, but on a lower level and again reduced by this massive shift, from a East -> West flow to the West -> East flow with La Tene.
This is rather exceptional, because how many examples from prehistory are known? Usually it was always going East -> West. Bell Beakers, La Tene Celts and early Romans are rather exceptional. If you think about it, how many population movements came from Iberia, how many ended up there? The difference is huge.
Click to expand...

Noricum history ( by old scholars ) state that it was named after the Nori ( illyrian ) tribe ..........when celts moved in from southern Germany in the first phase of Halstatt , circa 1000BC .........the 2 races mixed ..............these Nori became the Norici tribe once they became celtinized.

We have the Illyrian iron mines as well, Noric steel .............Strabo and Livy did state that the Illyrian where as far west as neighbors of the Rhaetic tribes in modern Austria

Heading into southern Noricum ( known by Romans as Noricum Mediterranean ) ...........we have many trading hubs of Venetic-Pannonin-Illyrian tribes merging around the current slovenian capital areas and further south into modern North Croatia
 
torzio said:
Noricum history ( by old scholars ) state that it was named after the Nori ( illyrian ) tribe ..........when celts moved in from southern Germany in the first phase of Halstatt , circa 1000BC .........the 2 races mixed ..............these Nori became the Norici tribe once they became celtinized.
We have the Illyrian iron mines as well, Noric steel .............Strabo and Livy did state that the Illyrian where as far west as neighbors of the Rhaetic tribes in modern Austria
Heading into southern Noricum ( known by Romans as Noricum Mediterranean ) ...........we have many trading hubs of Venetic-Pannonin-Illyrian tribes merging around the current slovenian capital areas and further south into modern North Croatia
Click to expand...

That's disputed, but my opinion as well. However, we don't deal with "Illyrian proper" North of the Unterkrainer group, but rather zones of mixture between Celts, Pannonian-Illyrians (Middle Danubian Urnfielders) and Basarabi (Daco-Thracian). That's different from the "real" or Illyrians in the narrower sense of Glasinac related formations.
 
Riverman said:
Yes, that's correct, and La Tene Celts surely had many Scythian derived influences, most likely transmitted via Thraco-Scythian contacts over Pannnonia-Southern Germany. However, I wouldn't emphasize head hunting too much, because it was a fairly common practise in many people throughout the world, some of which not even Eurasian.
Click to expand...

Problem is what kind of relationship between scythian and celtic people?
Is it like poland and russia or russia and mongol?
It is b/c it seems to me that Urnfield culture did not have that kind of culture.

I think scythian cannibalism is related with seima turbino. Scythian and karasuk dagger clearly originated in seima turbino. Dagger represents elite at that time. Moreover seima turbino seems to spread the celtic symbol at china bronze and Hongshan area. Especially they marked celtic symbol on their daggers. It means that the celtic symbol represents seima turbino elite like nomad Tamga. I always think there is culture to share and not to share, b/c any elite people try not to sell their souls. As one russin scholar mentioned, seima turbino culture surely landed England. I personally think the celts was concerned with aryan, hence, there is some connection between celtic cultrue and aryan culture.

ac-21111784.jpg

The Borodino treasure of seima turbino culture in Historical museum, Russia.

Triskele symbol on dagger seems to be connected to china bronze and the celts.
(of course, the above snake-moving mark is related with mycenaean and the celts)

Enlage picture in the link below and see one triskele mark on dagger:
http://nav.shm.ru/upload/iblock/c19/...04b45ebc65.png

another dagger:
see the below triquetra pattern on first dagger of the Lower Xiajiadian Culture:
http://www.jiaxiangwang.com/arch/ima...n-duanjian.jpg

http://www.jiaxiangwang.com/arch/a-i...xiajiadian.htm



Ccross.svg


Naga(snake)-mandala is a religious ritual theater in the cultural region of Tulu Nadu

MundkurNagaMandala.JPG
 
Problem is what kind of relationship between scythian and celtic people?
Click to expand...

The Scythians raided Eastern Hallstatt to death. Then some of the locals transitioned into a Thraco-Scythian cultural mode, and these fought more incursions off, but raided themselves even deeper into Central Europe. So a lot of people got into close contact with "Scythian ways" either by direct, "real Scythians", or those which adopted the Scythian ways, the Thraco-Scythians primarily (like Vekerzug culture). Therefore through what remained of Eastern Hallstatt and the Thraco-Scythians, along the old communication routes along the Danube in particular, Scythian cultural elements and probably even individuals travelled to the now booming very Western fringe Hallstatt sphere, which became the centre of La Tene. Its also not just the La Tene Celts which adopted some of this, but also, but way more limited, the Germanics. It affected most of Central Europe a lot. It was a huge impact, like you find whole areas of the Lusatian and Eastern Hallstatt sphere completely destroyed or massively degraded, with, on some sites, thousands of arrowheads around fortified settlements which were burnt to the ground.
This brought the Eastern Hallstatt sphere completely down and the luck of the La Tene Celts and Phocaeans in Massilia was that they just used the sea route, because both the West Hallstatt fringe and the Greek world got only mildly affected, same for the Illyrian core, while everybody closer to Pannonia was severely affected.
It was similar to the Hunnic, Avar and Mongol incursions, which usually didn't reach much beyond the Danubian sphere, with exceptions here and there.

Compare with the Magyar raids:
Kalandozasok.jpg



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Kalandozasok.jpg

They came far, even to Iberia and Italy, but most affected was Pannonia and the Danubian sphere. The Scythian and Thraco-Scythian raids seem to have been similar in some ways, same goes for the even earlier Thraco-Cimmerians. They all left their mark, and contrary to the Magyars, they had some innovations in their package, especially concerning horse breeds, gear and metal working, weapons.
 
Riverman said:
The Scythians raided Eastern Hallstatt to death. Then some of the locals transitioned into a Thraco-Scythian cultural mode, and these fought more incursions off, but raided themselves even deeper into Central Europe. So a lot of people got into close contact with "Scythian ways" either by direct, "real Scythians", or those which adopted the Scythian ways, the Thraco-Scythians primarily (like Vekerzug culture). Therefore through what remained of Eastern Hallstatt and the Thraco-Scythians, along the old communication routes along the Danube in particular, Scythian cultural elements and probably even individuals travelled to the now booming very Western fringe Hallstatt sphere, which became the centre of La Tene. Its also not just the La Tene Celts which adopted some of this, but also, but way more limited, the Germanics. It affected most of Central Europe a lot. It was a huge impact, like you find whole areas of the Lusatian and Eastern Hallstatt sphere completely destroyed or massively degraded, with, on some sites, thousands of arrowheads around fortified settlements which were burnt to the ground.
This brought the Eastern Hallstatt sphere completely down and the luck of the La Tene Celts and Phocaeans in Massilia was that they just used the sea route, because both the West Hallstatt fringe and the Greek world got only mildly affected, same for the Illyrian core, while everybody closer to Pannonia was severely affected.
It was similar to the Hunnic, Avar and Mongol incursions, which usually didn't reach much beyond the Danubian sphere, with exceptions here and there.
Compare with the Magyar raids:
Kalandozasok.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Kalandozasok.jpg
They came far, even to Iberia and Italy, but most affected was Pannonia and the Danubian sphere. The Scythian and Thraco-Scythian raids seem to have been similar in some ways, same goes for the even earlier Thraco-Cimmerians. They all left their mark, and contrary to the Magyars, they had some innovations in their package, especially concerning horse breeds, gear and metal working, weapons.
Click to expand...
What do you mean when you use La Tene celts ?..................as La Tene origin/centre is in Switzerland.

Are you saying these "swiss" celts are the same as Halstatt celts ......even though there is more than 400 years difference in time
 
Riverman said:
Hallstatt was mainly influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and the Basarabi culture (Daco-Thracians). This is very evident in every respect, but especially in the Eastern Hallstatt sphere, the Fr�g and Kalenderberg group. Probably even some of the elites were of foreign descent. The line of communication was along the Danube:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...um_und_Mitteleuropa_wahrend_der_Hallstattzeit

La Tene did profit from the Phoceans setting up their colony Massilia and its daughter colonies, which made them independent and gave the La Tene group direct access to the East Mediterranean world, instead of depending on the Eastern Hallstatt elites. This happened right when the Eastern group was severely crippled and almost completely destroyed, later transformed, by the Scythian and Thraco-Scythian incursions. These were very influential on La Tene too, but didn't weaken it as much, which gave the West, together with the Massilia trade port and Greek allies, decisive advantages. Things like trousers, animal style, horse cult, larger horse breeds and heavy cavalry spread from the East and formed the new Celtic world.
Click to expand...


This could be the Dutch part of the puzzle. I have put the places of the samples of the topic paper in the map of Fokkens (MBA) and Louwen(LBA).








They are Nijmegen in the river area in central-east Netherlands (border Germany). Uitgeest in the northwestern part. And Veere in the southwestern part.


I guess you could see the Netherlands as an interface between the SW and the NW, so in the Bronze Age between on the one hand the Hilversum culture and on the other hand the Elp (/ incl Hoogkarspel culture).


In iron age this more or less continued:
- in Zeeland/ Veere (SW) we see most probably an outlier of the Atlantic system, the EEF percentage of this sample is high;
- in Nijmegen (Central-East) there is a very clear influence of La Tene (from the Moselle/Marne) not only cultural but most probably also in genetic sense/ immigration; one sample is clearly Celtic and one sample as a 'Beakerish' kind of Steppe percentage (for unknown reason). Makes this sample somewhat outlying.
- West-Friesland puzzles me somewhat on the one hand we see a kind of continuation the Oostwoud (Elp/Hoogkarspel sample) is like Aak Z381, but Aak is also close to the typical La Tene/ Celtic sample of Nijmegen, still a La Tene influence? The Hoogoven man is somewhat less Celtic and comes closer to nowadays North Dutch....


Who has some clues?



PS an add with the Oostwoud BA Z381, just like Aak IA Z381.....seems not a big shift between 1700 BC and 200 BC???
 
Northener said:
This could be the Dutch part of the puzzle. I have put the places of the samples of the topic paper in the map of Fokkens (MBA) and Louwen(LBA).








They are Nijmegen in the river area in central-east Netherlands (border Germany). Uitgeest in the northwestern part. And Veere in the southwestern part.


I guess you could see the Netherlands as an interface between the SW and the NW, so in the Bronze Age between on the one hand the Hilversum culture and on the other hand the Elp (/ incl Hoogkarspel culture).


In iron age this more or less continued:
- in Zeeland/ Veere (SW) we see most probably an outlier of the Atlantic system, the EEF percentage of this sample is high;
- in Nijmegen (Central-East) there is a very clear influence of La Tene (from the Moselle/Marne) not only cultural but most probably also in genetic sense/ immigration; one sample is clearly Celtic and one sample as a 'Beakerish' kind of Steppe percentage (for unknown reason). Makes this sample somewhat outlying.
- West-Friesland puzzles me somewhat on the one hand we see a kind of continuation the Oostwoud (Elp/Hoogkarspel sample) is like Aak Z381, but Aak is also close to the typical La Tene/ Celtic sample of Nijmegen, still a La Tene influence? The Hoogoven man is somewhat less Celtic and comes closer to nowadays North Dutch....


Who has some clues?



PS an add with the Oostwoud BA Z381, just like Aak IA Z381.....seems not a big shift between 1700 BC and 200 BC???
Click to expand...


The Ems Group on your map are East-Frisians , they are mixed with Saxons ( the ? on the map , before Saxons moved south ) ............they would be the most germanic of the Dutch people ( ie, no french or celtic ) ..............the Romans have the Chauci as their ancient neighbors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauci
 
torzio said:
The Ems Group on your map are East-Frisians , they are mixed with Saxons ( the ? on the map , before Saxons moved south ) ............they would be the most germanic of the Dutch people ( ie, no french or celtic ) ..............the Romans have the Chauci as their ancient neighbors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauci
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It's more complicated. These are the Netherlands in BA time, take in account brown is peat, green is marsh, so only in the yellow area's they could get their feet dry....



What you qualify as East Frisia is in fact Drenthe (NL) and Emsland (Germany, not pictured) as yellow area's in the NE. Besides that we see in West-Frisia a small range of yellow dunes.

And yes the Chauci came in but much much later.....

I want to get past that Celtic vs Germanic label, in genetic sense for this stamp format place in the world it is obviously not accurat. It rather complicates. But that frames are quit strong though:gritting:

But as you can see in genetic sense the West Frisians of BA and IA were, in casu Aak, close to the nowadays Irish! Not "über Germanisch":p

They were much more related to Tumulus/ Urnfield.

Seen this previous publication of mc Donald (R1b U106 expert):





I see a kind of relationship between:
- 2000 BC Jimonice Unetice (DF98)
- 1700 BC Oostwoud West-Friesland Elp/ Hoogkarspel(Z381)
- 200 BC Uitgeest West-Friesland IA Frisian (Z381/ Z304)

But the whiz kids may puzzle somewhat on this matter....

Tentative conclusion in genetic sense I see more Central-European related connections than Nordic ones....
 
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Northener said:
It's more complicated. These are the Netherlands in BA time, take in account brown is peat, green is marsh, so only in the yellow area's they could get their feet dry....
Click to expand...

How much inhabitation was there in the peat area?

By the way, I'm quite sure that Pannonian Bronze Age samples being included and there seem to be a range of clusters ordered like pearls on a necklace. So it should be possible, especially by using older samples, to get an idea of a shift from the Eastern Central European/Pannonian sphere with Urnfield.
 
Riverman said:
How much inhabitation was there in the peat area?

By the way, I'm quite sure that Pannonian Bronze Age samples being included and there seem to be a range of clusters ordered like pearls on a necklace. So it should be possible, especially by using older samples, to get an idea of a shift from the Eastern Central European/Pannonian sphere with Urnfield.
Click to expand...

zero!

I'm curios the spread of Z381 looks more MBA (Tumulus) to me....I guess these lines came from Hessen and Rhine-Main.
 
Riverman said:
The Scythians raided Eastern Hallstatt to death. Then some of the locals transitioned into a Thraco-Scythian cultural mode, and these fought more incursions off, but raided themselves even deeper into Central Europe. So a lot of people got into close contact with "Scythian ways" either by direct, "real Scythians", or those which adopted the Scythian ways, the Thraco-Scythians primarily (like Vekerzug culture). Therefore through what remained of Eastern Hallstatt and the Thraco-Scythians, along the old communication routes along the Danube in particular, Scythian cultural elements and probably even individuals travelled to the now booming very Western fringe Hallstatt sphere, which became the centre of La Tene. Its also not just the La Tene Celts which adopted some of this, but also, but way more limited, the Germanics. It affected most of Central Europe a lot. It was a huge impact, like you find whole areas of the Lusatian and Eastern Hallstatt sphere completely destroyed or massively degraded, with, on some sites, thousands of arrowheads around fortified settlements which were burnt to the ground.
This brought the Eastern Hallstatt sphere completely down and the luck of the La Tene Celts and Phocaeans in Massilia was that they just used the sea route, because both the West Hallstatt fringe and the Greek world got only mildly affected, same for the Illyrian core, while everybody closer to Pannonia was severely affected.
It was similar to the Hunnic, Avar and Mongol incursions, which usually didn't reach much beyond the Danubian sphere, with exceptions here and there.

Compare with the Magyar raids:
Kalandozasok.jpg



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Kalandozasok.jpg

They came far, even to Iberia and Italy, but most affected was Pannonia and the Danubian sphere. The Scythian and Thraco-Scythian raids seem to have been similar in some ways, same goes for the even earlier Thraco-Cimmerians. They all left their mark, and contrary to the Magyars, they had some innovations in their package, especially concerning horse breeds, gear and metal working, weapons.
Click to expand...

Some of those "Scythians" were extremely "Med". They're some of my best matches. So, they picked up a lot of people along the way; very inclusive, unlike the Langobards, at least in Italy.
 
Angela said:
Some of those "Scythians" were extremely "Med". They're some of my best matches. So, they picked up a lot of people along the way; very inclusive, unlike the Langobards, at least in Italy.
Click to expand...

Basically there seem to have three things:
- Pure steppe nomads coming in, this is the earliest phase
- These pure steppe nomads pick up local womensfolk and ally up with local groups, these are true fused formations
- Thirdly, and interestingly these became to dominate especially with "the Scythians", then there were formations of largely local stock, with little outside influences, just adopting Scythian gear and ways.

The third group being especially prominent in various Pannonian and Western steppe Thraco-Scythian and Geto-Scythian or however you want to call it formations. They were actual Daco-Thracians in some cases and tribal formations. Some of them were stratified, with new steppe elements on top, some probably not even that. This need to be extensively tested to be sure, but from the archaeological record alone its clear that the G?va derived local population elements mostly prevailed. Especially the pottery is in some areas pure continuation in the transitional phase and just later changes.
 
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