R1a-CTS1211 > CTS8816 > Y2902 > YP3994 in Albania and in the Balkans

@illyri
I agree with most of your points however,

You mention that many died so couldn't pass on their y dna but others were luckier without maybe not doing much. This is not relevant because those who died cannot spread their offspring, culture and language to the new land because as you know, they died.

Anyway, it tends to be commanders who do not die so like I said the invaders who died were not quite as important. Not to mention that you win a war/region with your survivors as those who have died cannot take your people forward even though they would have been very important during the invasion period. It is those that survived that will continue to have kids and pass on the culture/language to the region.

Not all contact between 2 tribes/groups involved conflict, sometimes there was a mutual friendlier agreement - a coming together and of course immigration is also a thing especially in big empires across massive lands. The locals may be unwelcoming to the idea but sometimes they had to accept it. The amount of kids immigrants had usually depended on how they were received by locals. Over time this would have become less of an issue as they learned the language and adapted to the culture.

And yes Bulgaria has plenty of south Slavic input and they speak a south Slavic language.

I invite you to read this article by Professor Klyosov who is very famous in the field (It is very annoying that I do not have the authorization to post links but here the book is called DNA GENEALOGY by Klyosov)

" Haplogroup R1a apparently arose about 20,000 ybp (Klyosov& Rozhanskii, 2012b) in central Asia and possibly in thesouthern Siberia region of the Altai Mountains. Its ancient subclade M17 is observed in north China (Klyosov, 2009). R1abearers migrated from central Asia across Tibet, Hindustan, theIranian Plateau, and Anatolia between 12,000 and 10,000 ybp.Their downstream subclade, M417, crossed Asia Minor and entered the Balkans between 10,000 and 8000 ybp. It is apparently their arrival in the Balkans which strontium isotope measurements dated at 8200 ybp (Boric & Price, 2013). The M417subclade spread all over Europe sometime between 9000 and5000 ybp. Around 5700 ybp,...."

Illyricum said:

I invite you to read this article by Professor Klyosov who is very famous in the field (It is very annoying that I do not have the authorization to post links but here the book is called DNA GENEALOGY by Klyosov)

" Haplogroup R1a apparently arose about 20,000 ybp (Klyosov& Rozhanskii, 2012b) in central Asia and possibly in thesouthern Siberia region of the Altai Mountains. Its ancient subclade M17 is observed in north China (Klyosov, 2009). R1abearers migrated from central Asia across Tibet, Hindustan, theIranian Plateau, and Anatolia between 12,000 and 10,000 ybp.Their downstream subclade, M417, crossed Asia Minor and entered the Balkans between 10,000 and 8000 ybp. It is apparently their arrival in the Balkans which strontium isotope measurements dated at 8200 ybp (Boric & Price, 2013). The M417subclade spread all over Europe sometime between 9000 and5000 ybp. Around 5700 ybp,...."

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Thanks for the post Illyricum.

I have read the 2012 Klyosov/Rozhanski paper a while ago. But I think that their conclusions about M417’s expansion from the Balkans are not accurate. The same for their dating of events. I would expect more ancient samples / basal clades in the Balkans if they were right.

By the way, I have no knowledge about any 8200 years old R1a sample found in the Balkans. Do you know which aDNA sample they are writting about ?
Or are they speculating about untested bones ?


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Good evening Illyri

There is an interview on Youtube which gives a Russian channel, moreover the dating according to Milanovic is from 8000 BC and not 8200. Now for the bones you have to watch the interview which is unfortunately in Russian, a language that I do not master

We know that the R1a among the Serbian population, is brought by the Goths, the Sorbs, the Turks. Nevertheless the Slavic R1a is brought by the Sorbs only 15% during the migration. Currently in Serbia there are around 40-45% of the population has an R1a haplogroup, I created a topic on History & Civilizations the post is called The Serbian nation their genetics, which I invite you to read (it doesn is not finished yet, the translation is long and takes time)

Illyricum said:

I invite you to read this article by Professor Klyosov who is very famous in the field (It is very annoying that I do not have the authorization to post links but here the book is called DNA GENEALOGY by Klyosov)

" Haplogroup R1a apparently arose about 20,000 ybp (Klyosov& Rozhanskii, 2012b) in central Asia and possibly in thesouthern Siberia region of the Altai Mountains. Its ancient subclade M17 is observed in north China (Klyosov, 2009). R1abearers migrated from central Asia across Tibet, Hindustan, theIranian Plateau, and Anatolia between 12,000 and 10,000 ybp.Their downstream subclade, M417, crossed Asia Minor and entered the Balkans between 10,000 and 8000 ybp. It is apparently their arrival in the Balkans which strontium isotope measurements dated at 8200 ybp (Boric & Price, 2013). The M417subclade spread all over Europe sometime between 9000 and5000 ybp. Around 5700 ybp,...."

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Glad to see Serbian members active in the forum. Feel like I have not seen many past couple of years.

Just one question is this the Professor ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatole_Klyosov#Publications_on_"DNA_genealogy"

Cause reading the wiki did not give me much confidence if I am honest.

Nonetheless there are plenty of scientists in the field who I am sure you have read or are willing to read who might provide sources for your anthropology/genetic studies of the Serbs.

Hello, I start here

it's him

Illyricum said:

Hello, I start here
it's him

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Did you read the wiki?

Edit: Since you missed my point.

In 2008 he began publishing work on DNA genealogy that has been dismissed as pseudoscience.

Klyosov described his "DNA genealogy" as a "patriotic science" and between 2010 and 2016 published 10 books in this field.[20] In some of his writings Klyosov tried to refute the Out of Africa hypothesis and proposed his alternative Into Africa theory[21] with "outlandish claims" that the human species originated in Northern Russia.[18][20] According to scientists from various fields, "DNA genealogy" is pseudoscience,[22][20] and they have characterized it as "DNA demagoguery”.[23][24]

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Meanwhile, the growing link between nationalism and pseudoscience has allowed pseudoscientists to accuse their critics of being unpatriotic Russophobes. Anatole Klyosov, a Russian biochemist who worked in the United States before veering off into genetics, last year opened a Moscow-based “academy” for DNA genealogy, a field he claims to have discovered and upholds as a “patriotic science.” In the 10 books he has published since 2010, Klyosov has advanced outlandish claims, including the idea that the human species originated in the Russian North and that the view that humans derived from Africa is an expression of Western political correctness.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/29/putins-great-patriotic-pseudoscience/

In 2015, a group of scientists from various fields wrote an open letter saying Klyosov’s writing could fuel hatred by “attracting readers whose nationalist and political ambitions are not satisfied with the world’s scientific body of knowledge.” Klyosov responded in his latest book, which he called Lies, Insinuations, and Russophobia in Modern Russian Science, dismissing his critics as members of a “fifth column.”

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Scientific Research Publishing (SCIRP) is an academic publisher of presumably peer-reviewed open-access electronic journals, conference proceedings, and scientific anthologies of questionable quality.[1][2][3] Although it has an address in southern California, according to Jeffrey Beall it is a Chinese operation.[4]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Research_Publishing

In 2013 Klyosov became editor-in-chief of the journal Advances in Anthropology, published by Scientific Research Publishing.[18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatole_Klyosov

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Anyways, not sure what science has to do with patriotism. Or which respected geneticists/anthropologist would suggest Homo Sapiens originated in Northern Siberia... when one look at YFull (a company also based in Moscow Russia, hence no "Western Propaganda" ""Sole proprietor Vadim Urasin", 105523, 16th Parkovaya st, 55-2, Moscow, Russian Federation") is enough to disprove such an hypothesis (https://www.yfull.com/tree/).

yes I read, I also have the book

There is also something interesting, me who is from R-YP417 who is supposed to be North Slavs, on MyTrueAncestry I have no percentage of Slavs, I have Romans, Illyrians, Ostrogoths ... but not Slavs

yet his book is by no means propaganda or nationalism

Illyricum said:

There is also something interesting, me who is from R-YP417 who is supposed to be North Slavs, on MyTrueAncestry I have no percentage of Slavs, I have Romans, Illyrians, Ostrogoths ... but not Slavs

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I am not really surprised. When Slavs came to the Balkans they met local populations and intermixed. This might explain your autosomal makeup. Y-DNA is passed patrilineal, meanwhile autosomal is an average of the sum of all your ancestors.



A good percentage in Central/Western Africa are R1b patrilinearly due to supposed back migration. Nonetheless in autosomal test I am willing to bet they are fully African.

The thing with autosomal DNA is that it gets very quickly diluted into larger populations. Since you have 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 16 great-grand parents etc. Hence the formula goes something like 2^n generation. Meaning dilution happens exponentially if one of your ancestral autosomal populations moves and gets diluted with locals in a new location.

About your specific clade I am not very read, is it part of Northern Slavs or does it have some sort of older continuity in the Balkans?

Edit: Checked YFull. Branching and TMRCA suggests South Slavic migration. I might be wrong though.



Regarding my previous post. Those sources regarding bias I just copy pasted from a quick 5 min research in Google.
Since you are pretty well versed in English I would suggest also following more mainstream geneticists and anthropologists just to have some more variety in your sources. Trust me propaganda in this field no matter the source is quite rife. You should look for the truth yourself somewhere in the middle, and reaching consensus with evidence.

:cool-v:

I have to check, to come back to the Slavs I think that the Slavic haplogroup type R1a and I2 are mixed in the culture of cucuteni, and that the chronicle of Nestor and Dalimil are not far from the truth about a possible home of the Slavs in the Balkans. I had looked at the other data of the Serbs who sent their raw data to MyTrueAncestry I am surprised that many have an ancestor from the Balkans dating from 3180 BC and that the Slavic percentage rarely appears

Illyricum said:

I have to check, to come back to the Slavs I think that the Slavic haplogroup type R1a and I2 are mixed in the culture of cucuteni, and that the chronicle of Nestor and Dalimil are not far from the truth about a possible home of the Slavs in the Balkans. I had looked at the other data of the Serbs who sent their raw data to MyTrueAncestry I am surprised that many have an ancestor from the Balkans dating from 3180 BC and that the Slavic percentage rarely appears

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Yep, from the PCAs I have seen Serbs fall closer to the Balkans than Poland or Russia.



And this is fully expected, given 1000 years of intermixing between the Slavs and Paleo Balkan populations in the Balkans.

I had read that the Slavic haplogroup is brought by the Sorbs only 15%, today the Serbian scientists and some historians say that he had no major migration of the Slavs in the balkans, some think that some tribes of the The Illyrian administration was the ancestors of both the Slavs and the Dalmatians.

Illyricum said:

I had read that the Slavic haplogroup is brought by the Sorbs only 15%, today the Serbian scientists and some historians say that he had no major migration of the Slavs in the balkans, some think that some tribes of the The Illyrian administration was the ancestors of both the Slavs and the Dalmatians.

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Nobody says that. Nobody anywhere says that Illyrians were slavs except serbian extremists like you.

Illyricum said:

I had read that the Slavic haplogroup is brought by the Sorbs only 15%, today the Serbian scientists and some historians say that he had no major migration of the Slavs in the balkans, some think that some tribes of the The Illyrian administration was the ancestors of both the Slavs and the Dalmatians.

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These are topics that necesite a whole other thread.
But what I can say for sure is, that it depends a lot on rigorous definition and perspective.
Illyrians for sure were not ancestors of the Slavs (in the rigorous definition of Slavs). However, some Southern Slavs do have ancestral links post South Slavic migrations with Paleo Balkan populations including Illyrians, Thracians etc.

The other thing is when you shift from looking at autosomal genetics to Y-DNA. R1a and I2a1 clades present today in modern South Slavs, the overwhelming majority (if not the whole branches) have TMRCA's compatible with the Slavic Movement in the Balkans around VII-IX Century CE, (based on the research I have done some years ago, not sure if anything has changed).

The other perspective is the cultural one, it is self evident that today South Slavs are Slavic in culture (mainly language, script, literature etc).

Hence one gets the idea that following the fall of the Roman Empire, weakening of Byzantium, depopulation due to the Plague etc, a non majority Slavic population that moved into the Balkans during this time frame (VII-IX CE <) where able to assimilate a larger local Paleo Balkan population into their culture. Supporting evidence for this are facts that you have already mentioned, ex: in your case your Y clade being downstream of North East/West Slavs, yet your autosomal makeup being largely Balkanic.

Anyways, this is why I warned about just looking at the evidence and more mainstream anthropology / genetics. In my case I am willing to change my hypothesis given a change in the evidence. But too often on genetics forums people start with an hypothesis and then try to fit any facts they can find to support it. And this comes down to propaganda, I was here first, you were here first, etc that at the end of the day is irrelevant... Just look at Native Americans.

At the end of the day we are all amalgamations of various prehistoric populations mixed in the right way to create modern ethnicities, and national identities, that did not exist before the XIX century in most cases. Why it really is counter productive to mix political biases, such as nationalism with science.

For me this type of research more about historical curiosity and self actualization, than politics.

I agree on some point of measurement, on the other hand there is a topic that I created on the origin of the Serbs and their genetics