Is race just a social construct?

OK, how about this: only when people turn to farming do population numbers significantly rise. Satisfied now?

You know what, you both have convinced me: there are vast differences within Europe. although I'm unsure of the alleles responsible for specific traits and the exact selection processes responsible for it. The presence or absence of a sense of humor, the capacity for pedantry, and the lack of self-awareness are all definitely on a cline in Europe.

FYI, I don't think Italians are "superior" to other Europeans. I'm quite aware of our flaws. Nor do I give a damn how much EEF, Steppe, WHG, CHG/Iran Neo or what the hell else we have other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity. I often wish I never took up this discipline in the first place.

Working out one's relationship to these ancient groups doesn't matter a damn in the real scheme of things other than as an intellectual puzzle. What is this obsession with identifying with these ancient groups other than just another form of supra-nationalism or a cloak for xenophobia. I am ME, a unique personality or "soul" for those who think in spiritual terms, then daughter, mother, wife, friend. Nationality, profession, trail far behind, and even then, nationality is a "cultural" identity, not some collection of alleles. There are, for example, no collection of alleles which make one American, and there's so much diversity within Italy that I'd be hard pressed to pick out one area which is the MOST Italian. That's just the way I like it too.

Maybe that's another thing which is on a cline in Europe: the need to see people as part of more and more clearly defined groups rather than as a collection of unique individuals.

This has all reminded me of why I have stayed away from this place for so long.
 
Angela said:
OK, how about this: only when people turn to farming do population numbers significantly rise. Satisfied now?

You know what, you both have convinced me: there are vast differences within Europe. although I'm unsure of the alleles responsible for specific traits and the exact selection processes responsible for it. The presence or absence of a sense of humor, the capacity for pedantry, and the lack of self-awareness are all definitely on a cline in Europe.

FYI, I don't think Italians are "superior" to other Europeans. I'm quite aware of our flaws. Nor do I give a damn how much EEF, Steppe, WHG, CHG/Iran Neo or what the hell else we have other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity. I often wish I never took up this discipline in the first place.

Working out one's relationship to these ancient groups doesn't matter a damn in the real scheme of things other than as an intellectual puzzle. What is this obsession with identifying with these ancient groups other than just another form of supra-nationalism or a cloak for xenophobia. I am ME, a unique personality or "soul" for those who think in spiritual terms, then daughter, mother, wife, friend. Nationality, profession, trail far behind, and even then, nationality is a "cultural" identity, not some collection of alleles. There are, for example, no collection of alleles which make one American, and there's so much diversity within Italy that I'd be hard pressed to pick out one area which is the MOST Italian. That's just the way I like it too.

Maybe that's another thing which is on a cline in Europe: the need to see people as part of more and more clearly defined groups rather than as a collection of unique individuals.

This has all reminded me of why I have stayed away from this place for so long.
Click to expand...

How on earth could I have anything against farmers, because my surname is Boer which means farmer:LOL: So my group is the group of farmers Angela.

Even the local pride the football club FC Groningen has 'farmer pride', farmers never surrender they are on the way to the top!

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=370403373502838

enough collective farmer pride.....hahaha:LOL: Basta!
 
Angela said:
OK, how about this: only when people turn to farming do population numbers significantly rise. Satisfied now?

You know what, you both have convinced me: there are vast differences within Europe. although I'm unsure of the alleles responsible for specific traits and the exact selection processes responsible for it. The presence or absence of a sense of humor, the capacity for pedantry, and the lack of self-awareness are all definitely on a cline in Europe.

FYI, I don't think Italians are "superior" to other Europeans. I'm quite aware of our flaws. Nor do I give a damn how much EEF, Steppe, WHG, CHG/Iran Neo or what the hell else we have other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity. I often wish I never took up this discipline in the first place.

Working out one's relationship to these ancient groups doesn't matter a damn in the real scheme of things other than as an intellectual puzzle. What is this obsession with identifying with these ancient groups other than just another form of supra-nationalism or a cloak for xenophobia. I am ME, a unique personality or "soul" for those who think in spiritual terms, then daughter, mother, wife, friend. Nationality, profession, trail far behind, and even then, nationality is a "cultural" identity, not some collection of alleles. There are, for example, no collection of alleles which make one American, and there's so much diversity within Italy that I'd be hard pressed to pick out one area which is the MOST Italian. That's just the way I like it too.

Maybe that's another thing which is on a cline in Europe: the need to see people as part of more and more clearly defined groups rather than as a collection of unique individuals.

This has all reminded me of why I have stayed away from this place for so long.
Click to expand...

Riverman said:
Even in Europe different dimensions can be worked out, but generally speaking, there are dominant dimensions in Europe of course, which are the classics, like Neolithic vs. HG ancestry or Western European vs. Uralic, Yamnaya/CHG/ANE ...
Click to expand...

And on topic the farmers that were present on the NW corner on the North German Plain were Funnelbeakers that came in about 3400 BC, see Karsten Wentink (archeologist) and in genetic sense they were very high HG, see Frank N.

About 2850 BC the Single Grave people came in from Central Europe to the North Sea Coast (Egfjord 2021). They transformed, mixed with the TRB substrate, into Bell Beakers, they spread all over the place (see Olalde).

In MBA there came again from more Central Europe (SW Germany) the Tumulus/ Urnfield spread (mate be connected with the upheaval of R1b U106), imo still underestimated. May be a side effect was that the EEF percentage did rise.

That's imo the short story for 'my region' in this respect. Correct me if I'm wrong!
 
Northener said:
And on topic the farmers that were present on the NW corner on the North German Plain were Funnelbeakers that came in about 3400 BC, see Karsten Wentink (archeologist) and in genetic sense they were very high HG, see Frank N.

About 2850 BC the Single Grave people came in from Central Europe to the North Sea Coast (Egfjord 2021). They transformed, mixed with the TRB substrate, into Bell Beakers, they spread all over the place (see Olalde).

In MBA there came again from more Central Europe (SW Germany) the Tumulus/ Urnfield spread (mate be connected with the upheaval of R1b U106), imo still underestimated. May be a side effect was that the EEF percentage did rise.

That's imo the short story for 'my region' in this respect. Correct me if I'm wrong!
Click to expand...

I agree, and we see from the British paper that the Neolithic ancestry on the fringes did increase in the North and decrease in the South. The reason is that a lot of ancestry/gene flow came from "the Middle", with Pannonian-Danubian-Alpine influences, to all those regions. For the North this meant less, for the South it meant more Yamnaya : Neolithic ancestry.
 
Angela said:
Maybe that's another thing which is on a cline in Europe: the need to see people as part of more and more clearly defined groups rather than as a collection of unique individuals.

This has all reminded me of why I have stayed away from this place for so long.
Click to expand...

if all people would see people as unique individuals instead of as part of a group there would be no need for any racial model at all wouldn't you agree? the "more and more" is just a logical consequence once you set the stone rolling.
 
Ailchu said:
if all people would see people as unique individuals instead of as part of group there would be no need for any racial model at all wouldn't you agree?
Click to expand...

I agree with you Alichu to see people as uniques individuals, that doesn't cross 'membership' of a group. It's a big advantage of modernity that people can "opt out". And also that you are not judged by the "group" you are born in....even more if this group is called race....

But unfortunately Angela seems not not to support this because see reasons I'm a Northern European so I have a-hidden or not- feeling of superiority (obviously to Southern Europeans?). That's imo a clear case of: you belong to the "group" Northerners so you....fill in.
 
Last edited:
Ailchu said:
if all people would see people as unique individuals instead of as part of a group there would be no need for any racial model at all wouldn't you agree? the "more and more" is just a logical consequence once you set the stone rolling.
Click to expand...

Obviously Angela hasn't read the thinnest book of the world doesn't she?
 
Northener said:
Obviously Angela hasn't read the thinnest book of the world doesn't she?
Click to expand...

How dare you???

Go ahead, spit it out, you closet Nordicist, or don't you have the COURAGE??? Do you need to have some more to drink to really get down into the mud? You really think this is a proportionate response to anything I said?

I'm leaving it up here in perpetuity so everyone who comes to this site and happens on this thread can see how absolutely right I was to say that buried underneath all your WOKE B.S. is just another garden variety Germanic racist convinced of his own superiority. I can smell you guys a mile away.

You want to go there; I'll go there, buddy.

Yeah, Italians figured out pretty early that letting Mussolini take over and putting us into bed with the Germans was one of the worst decisions they ever made, although even then, depended where you were. My father's town, Sarzana, has the glory of being the last town in Italy to let the fascists in, and even then it was by force. Also, at least we don't have the distinction of dragging all of Europe into three major European conflicts so we could rule Europe, and we didn't graft Anti-Semitism onto fascism, as if fascism wasn't bad enough already; nor did we build concentration camps all over Europe and vow to drink Jewish blood as part of our initiations, and no, we aren't so susceptible to brainwashing and group mind think as to just sit around watching train transports of screaming Jews roll through town or smell the stench of burning and decaying flesh from the camps and just remain silent. When our Jewish neighbors started disappearing, home after home, convents, friaries, and on and on opened their doors to take them in. We also don't believe in fighting to the death, even sending fourteen and fifteen year old boys to do it, to support a disgusting, vicious, murderous ideology which is and was the antithesis of everything humane in western civilization.

In case you didn't know, no death camp was every built on Italian soil, and until the Germans took over direct control of Italy not a single Jew was shipped out to be sent to work or death camps whatever placating of Hitler Mussolini may have felt he had to do through the horrific Racial Laws which are a stain on our history. There were limits to what we could accept, however. Records from a meeting of the German high command in the east document that it was queried whether the Italians should be informed about the camps, and the answer was no, keep it from them for as long as possible; they'd never stomach it. I've rarely felt so proud to be Italian. I'm also proud that the Jews of southern France were safe so long as the Italian Army was on the ground; only when they were disbanded, and many of them shot by their allies did the killing begin.

You also probably don't know but even if you did you probably wouldn't care, but the Germany Wehrmacht under General Kesselring as well as SS divisions diverted from the eastern front unleashed a reign of terror on Italy once they poured in after Italy withdrew from the war. Every little town in my valley and down the coast into Toscana has its memorial to the women, children and old men burned in their churches or bayoneted or mowed down or blown apart by grenades by the COURAGEOUS German soldiers for perhaps having given bread to the partisans hiding in the hills, who were often just young boys related to them who were fleeing being rounded up for slave labor in Germany and had barely a gun between them. My great uncle sheltered dozens of them in caves he dug into the hillsides covered with vines, escaped Allied soldiers and airmen many of them. You don't recognize that as courage, you...

A cousin in my extended family died in a sub camp of Dachau for organizing workers in Torino not to build German war materiel, another cousin was tortured, all his nails pulled out, electrodes attached to his genitals and ultimately executed by the Germans for refusing to give the names of his comrades, so don't bleat to me about courage. What the hell would you know about it? You know nothing of what really happened in World War II so don't you dare besmirch the names of our dead, not just the innocents at home, but all those Italian boys dead in Russia and North Africa fighting in a war which they didn't believe in in the first place. We don't make good mindless, fanatic, butchering machines, thank GOD.

You make me sick. How the hell do people like you sleep soundly at night after saying things like this???
 
Angela
I can see your point and why you feel so strongly and yet genetics is bound to attract varying degrees of indentitarians, not only those who are intellectually curious.

There's also the extreme of the extreme on the internet and I feel your post is not going to make them see reason, if anything they'll feel pride in the killing of jews, the terrorizing of Italians or the youths who blindly followed orders, something akin to indo-european ethos in their view.

It is what it is, I think it's important to remain a bit more detached and just let the academic truth dispel the obfuscation of the past.
 
Angela:
The presence or absence of a sense of humor, the capacity for pedantry, and the lack of self-awareness are all definitely on a cline in Europe.
Click to expand...

Northener said:
Obviously Angela hasn't read the thinnest book of the world doesn't she?
Click to expand...

Angela said:
How dare you???


Go ahead, spit it out, you closet Nordicist, or don't you have the COURAGE??? Do you need to have some more to drink to really get down into the mud? You really think this is a proportionate response to anything I said?

I'm leaving it up here in perpetuity so everyone who comes to this site and happens on this thread can see how absolutely right I was to say that buried underneath all your WOKE B.S. is just another garden variety Germanic racist convinced of his own superiority. I can smell you guys a mile away.


You want to go there; I'll go there, buddy.
Click to expand...

The thinnest book of the world. The answer was......:
"1000 years of German humor" :LOL:

I leave it to the reader who has or has not a lack of humor.....
 
Carnimirie said:
Angela
I can see your point and why you feel so strongly and yet genetics is bound to attract varying degrees of indentitarians, not only those who are intellectually curious.

There's also the extreme of the extreme on the internet and I feel your post is not going to make them see reason, if anything they'll feel pride in the killing of jews, the terrorizing of Italians or the youths who blindly followed orders, something akin to indo-european ethos in their view.

It is what it is, I think it's important to remain a bit more detached and just let the academic truth dispel the obfuscation of the past.
Click to expand...

Two things:
1. She adreses me personaly, but I'm no Nordicist/ Borealist, even strong opposed to it! So it's quit personal insulting, without reason.

2. The ww2 events are familiar, I'm historian and I live in a country taken in by the Nazi's. I can expel the efforts of my family in WW2, but somehow after this tirade I don't feel the urge.

So I hope you understand my point too.
 
Angela said:
How dare you???

Go ahead, spit it out, you closet Nordicist, or don't you have the COURAGE??? Do you need to have some more to drink to really get down into the mud? You really think this is a proportionate response to anything I said?

I'm leaving it up here in perpetuity so everyone who comes to this site and happens on this thread can see how absolutely right I was to say that buried underneath all your WOKE B.S. is just another garden variety Germanic racist convinced of his own superiority. I can smell you guys a mile away.

You want to go there; I'll go there, buddy.

Yeah, Italians figured out pretty early that letting Mussolini take over and putting us into bed with the Germans was one of the worst decisions they ever made, although even then, depended where you were. My father's town, Sarzana, has the glory of being the last town in Italy to let the fascists in, and even then it was by force. Also, at least we don't have the distinction of dragging all of Europe into three major European conflicts so we could rule Europe, and we didn't graft Anti-Semitism onto fascism, as if fascism wasn't bad enough already; nor did we build concentration camps all over Europe and vow to drink Jewish blood as part of our initiations, and no, we aren't so susceptible to brainwashing and group mind think as to just sit around watching train transports of screaming Jews roll through town or smell the stench of burning and decaying flesh from the camps and just remain silent. When our Jewish neighbors started disappearing, home after home, convents, friaries, and on and on opened their doors to take them in. We also don't believe in fighting to the death, even sending fourteen and fifteen year old boys to do it, to support a disgusting, vicious, murderous ideology which is and was the antithesis of everything humane in western civilization.

In case you didn't know, no death camp was every built on Italian soil, and until the Germans took over direct control of Italy not a single Jew was shipped out to be sent to work or death camps whatever placating of Hitler Mussolini may have felt he had to do through the horrific Racial Laws which are a stain on our history. There were limits to what we could accept, however. Records from a meeting of the German high command in the east document that it was queried whether the Italians should be informed about the camps, and the answer was no, keep it from them for as long as possible; they'd never stomach it. I've rarely felt so proud to be Italian. I'm also proud that the Jews of southern France were safe so long as the Italian Army was on the ground; only when they were disbanded, and many of them shot by their allies did the killing begin.

You also probably don't know but even if you did you probably wouldn't care, but the Germany Wehrmacht under General Kesselring as well as SS divisions diverted from the eastern front unleashed a reign of terror on Italy once they poured in after Italy withdrew from the war. Every little town in my valley and down the coast into Toscana has its memorial to the women, children and old men burned in their churches or bayoneted or mowed down or blown apart by grenades by the COURAGEOUS German soldiers for perhaps having given bread to the partisans hiding in the hills, who were often just young boys related to them who were fleeing being rounded up for slave labor in Germany and had barely a gun between them. My great uncle sheltered dozens of them in caves he dug into the hillsides covered with vines, escaped Allied soldiers and airmen many of them. You don't recognize that as courage, you...

A cousin in my extended family died in a sub camp of Dachau for organizing workers in Torino not to build German war materiel, another cousin was tortured, all his nails pulled out, electrodes attached to his genitals and ultimately executed by the Germans for refusing to give the names of his comrades, so don't bleat to me about courage. What the hell would you know about it? You know nothing of what really happened in World War II so don't you dare besmirch the names of our dead, not just the innocents at home, but all those Italian boys dead in Russia and North Africa fighting in a war which they didn't believe in in the first place. We don't make good mindless, fanatic, butchering machines, thank GOD.

You make me sick. How the hell do people like you sleep soundly at night after saying things like this???
Click to expand...

You basically seem to think that everyone either Dutch or Deutsch (is not the same Angela but ok) is Nordicist and when he denies this or even is anti Nordicist than he is a hidden or a closet Nordicist....or
underneath all your WOKE B.S. is just another garden variety Germanic racist convinced of his own superiority. I can smell you guys a mile away.
Click to expand...

One way or the other, "they" are all racialist. In my view clearly BS. Because in the end in my view all your own projections and closed mind assumptions.

And about ww2 no explanation just one example my grandfather and greatgrandfather among other man were in 1945 hostage in the local church because of "represailles" from the German army, they wanted to blow the whole thing up.....the army stood ready with their hand grenades.....the woman of the village in total panic (great grandmother and grandmother among them). The Nazi mayor of the village prevented it in really the last seconds.... My grandparents hided people....This among many more....So no litanies about ww2 please.
 
Northener said:
You basically seem to think that everyone either Dutch or Deutsch (is not the same Angela but ok) is Nordicist and when he denies this or even is anti Nordicist than he is a hidden or a closet Nordicist....or

One way or the other, "they" are all racialist. In my view clearly BS. Because in the end in my view all your own projections and closed mind assumptions.

And about ww2 no explanation just one example my grandfather and greatgrandfather among other man were in 1945 hostage in the local church because of "represailles" from the German army, they wanted to blow the whole thing up.....the army stood ready with their hand grenades.....the woman of the village in total panic (great grandmother and grandmother among them). The Nazi mayor of the village prevented it in really the last seconds.... My grandparents hided people....This among many more....So no litanies about ww2 please.
Click to expand...

don't get why she is so upset. she took it back later but still earlier she mentioned the possibility of grouping near east and europe into 2 groups based on WHG ancestry but then "more and more groups" were disturbing as soon as it was about northern europeans. even the grouping into "westeurasian, easteurasian, sub saharan" races is questionable.

i wonder what kind of traits aside from physical appearance split westeurasians,sub saharans and east eurasians clearly into those categories?
 
Ailchu said:
don't get why she is so mad. she took it back later but still earlier she mentioned the possibility of grouping near east and europe into 2 groups based on WHG ancestry but then "more and more groups" were disturbing as soon as it was about northern europeans. even the grouping into "westeurasian, easteurasian, sub saharan" races is questionable.
i wonder what kind of traits aside from physical appearance split westeurasians,sub saharans and east eurasians clearly into those categories?
Click to expand...

Are you blind? You like to stir the pot and watch it boil don't you. Sorry but I don't respect those kind of feeble and cowardly tactics, Alichu.

People can be distinguished down to the village level. But the breath of distance determines race. By just looking at the data, it is ipso facto. Do you need someone to constantly point out the obvious to you in order for you yourself to make that realization? Sorry, but this is infantile behavior, and it is indeed disruptive to our discussion.
 
Jovialis said:
Are you blind? You like to stir the pot and watch it boil don't you. Sorry but I don't respect those kind of feeble and cowardly tactics, Alichu.
People can be distinguished down to the village level. But the breath of distance determines race. By just looking at the data, it is ipso facto. Do you need someone to constantly point out the obvious to you in order for you yourself to make that realization? Sorry, but this is infantile behavior, and it is indeed disruptive to our discussion.
Click to expand...

imo pointing out contradictions is part of a discussion. how can you take the grouping westeurasians into europe and near east into account but then consider more and more grouping as disturbing? when exactly do such categorizations start/stop beeing disturbing?

or neglect that every racial categorization so far is based on pure types? what race is someone from latin america, central asia?

or what traits clearly seperate racial groups aside from physical appearance?

why would racial groups be needed if we just look at people as individuals?
 
Ailchu said:
why would racial groups be needed if we just look at people as individuals?
Click to expand...

People are never just individuals, you always have parents, relatives, being member of some kind of population and society. Every individual being embeded into something bigger than itself, and all individuals have on different levels varying degrees of similarity and difference. Not all significant differerences might be bound to being from this race or ethnicity though, but even then, most of any persons individuality being the result of the (re-) combination of pre-existing genetic and cultural blocks.
If you look at every living being as "just individuals", you realise nothing. That's why humans categorise, everything. Some of the first things children notice is what's a dog, a cat or a rabbit. Its always based on generalisation and categorisation. Similarly, already as kids, humans recognise physical differences between humans on a rather fine scaled level, plus categorisations.
Looking at people as individuals and groups is no contradiction, but complementary, and it depends on the question asked which point of view is more appropriate. If we are talking about human groupings and differences, beyond the individual level, which exist, the appeal to all people can be just looked at as individuals makes no sense. Because of course every human being should be looked at and appreciated as an individual, but that's pretty much off topic and irrelevant for the debate. Its even irrelevant whether you call the different grouping race or whatever, the important question is what are the primary biological categories observable in humans. If you look at those, you end pretty much at the same definition regardless of which reasonable approach (physical or genetic) you use.

what race is someone from latin america, central asia?
Click to expand...

That's exactly the difference between race and population. If they mix with each other, they are a population, but that doesn't constitute a race. Because any racial category needs before anything else stability and heredity. If its a constant recombination of heterogeneous traits and combinations of traits, its no distinct racial category. The mixed popuation has however still a distinct "racial profile" from other mixed populations, like Peruvians vs. Malagasy. They are both mixed, but mixtures of different original populations ("races"). Also the ratio and selection would make a difference, especially on the long run. A mixed population can become more fixed, over time, because of selection. Like some East African populations, which can't be put into just one category and being no recent, heterogeneous mix, but something new and unique.

The same principles apply, once more, to animals, where sometimes new races and species emerge from a hybridisation of different "species" or "races", after which selection creates something new, distinct from both parent populations.

A bird hybrid is a bird that has two different species as parents. The resulting bird can present with any combination of characters from the parent species, from totally identical to completely different. Usually, the bird hybrid shows intermediate characteristics between the two species. A "successful" hybrid is one demonstrated to produce fertile offspring. According to the most recent estimates, about 16% of all wild bird species have been known to hybridize with one another; this number increases to 22% when captive hybrids are taken into account.[1] Several bird species hybridize with multiple other species. For example, the mallard (Anas platyrhynchos) is known to interbreed with at least 40 different species. The ecological and evolutionary consequences of multispecies hybridization remain to be determined.[2]


In the wild, some of the most frequently reported hybrids are waterfowl,[3] gulls,[4] hummingbirds,[5] and birds-of-paradise.[6] Mallards, whether of wild or domestic origin, hybridize with other ducks so often that multiple duck species are at risk of extinction because of it.
Click to expand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_hybrid

If you think about it, even the definition between species and race gets blurred, because more generally speaking, how can these "duck species" being considered independent species in the first place? Obviously that's mostly based on "physical features" and "superficial behavioural traits", because otherwise, they would be incapable of creating fertile hybrids!
The same question could be asked for Neandertals and Denisovans in the human sphere. What are they? Species, subspecies...?

To sum it up, many categories applied to humans and animals are not always that clearly defined. What's more obvious than the exact borderlines of the definitions is the practical category itself, whih is usually easily recognisable and useful in determining biologically relevant differences of biological lifeforms. Its not like the distinctive traits are arbitrary, they being selected for many generations, over many thousands of years, for some kind of reason, as unknown or absurd it may have been. It might be just the preference of some individuals for lighter feathers or a different call, or it might be a more functional selection, giving practical advantages. This needs to be investigated and explained, its not self-evident either way.
 
Ailchu said:
imo pointing out contradictions is part of a discussion. how can you take the grouping westeurasians into europe and near east into account but then consider more and more grouping as disturbing? when exactly do such categorizations start/stop beeing disturbing?

or neglect that every racial categorization so far is based on pure types? what race is someone from latin america, central asia?

or what traits clearly seperate racial groups aside from physical appearance?

why would racial groups be needed if we just look at people as individuals?
Click to expand...

Nobody is pure, but people can fall inside of a set of components to make something distinguishable. Think of cooking certain recipes to make definable dishes; they require a variety of ingredients. Just because a cake is not purely of one ingredient, doesn't mean cakes do not exist. Moreover, you can make different cakes, that are definable from one another within a gradient of flavors, using certain amounts of ingredients. Cheese cakes exist, ice cream cakes exist, carrot cakes exist, marzipan cakes exist, chocolate cakes exist.
 
Jovialis said:
Nobody is pure, but people can fall inside of a set of components to make something distinguishable. Think of cooking certain recipes to make definable dishes; they require a variety of ingredients. Just because a cake is not purely of one ingredient, doesn't mean cakes do not exist. Moreover, you can make different cakes, that are definable from one another within a gradient of flavors, using certain amounts of ingredients. Cheese cakes exist, ice cream cakes exist, carrot cakes exist, marzipan cakes exist, chocolate cakes exist.
Click to expand...

Jovialis: I agree and I personally find some of the discussion absurd to say their are not genetic differences across populations. I, like I assume many here, have looked at some of the DNA tests that I have done to look at genetic markers related to certain medical issues. In fact, the FDA I think approved 23&Me's DNA analysis related to health markers.

Here is a paper from the New England Journal of Medicine published summer of 2021 which while written in very nuanced language as to not offend the woke American Left I assume or the extreme Nordicist types on the American Right, if you read it carefully it does clearly state that genetic ancestry and markers are related to differences in medical risk for diseases across population groups which in this paper notes that modern peoples fall basically into 5 different population clusters Africa, Europe, Asia, Oceania and Americas.

So I think a publication in the NEJM would rate higher than those who were trained in deconstructionist ideology in modern Liberal arts and Social science departments across the USA and Europe.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2029562
 
@Riverman

the differentiation between "population" and "race" doesn't really solve anything. you would still have to answer, when do individuals of this "population" belong to one or the other "race"? at what point of mixing can you say that all individuals of this "population" are the same "race"?
 
@Angela,
As far as I'm concerned, I think your heart is in the right place, and you contribute much to this forum. And I can‘t really speak for Northerner since I don‘t know this poster. That said, it seems that you sometimes have some bias concerning certain topics. For instance, if I am not mistaken, you wrote that your father was very proud that he has genetic ties to the Etruscans or the Romans and that your husband is thrilled to be closely related to ancient Greeks. So why is it fine and okay when Italians take pride in their Roman ancestors, heritage while in contrast, Northern Europeans who are proud of their Germanic forefathers are confronted with accusations of being Nazis, white supremacists? This is not fair. In the USA being "white" is demonized but in Europe, Germanic ancestry is being stigmatized. In my opinion, the association of the Germanic or Indo-European heritage with the Nazis has to stop. I'm speaking generally here, thus it's not addressed to you, nobody should harass Germans, English, or Scandi folks for wanting to reconnect with their Germanic ancestors and heritage. All people, Europeans, Africans, Asians have the right to be proud of their ancestors and to cherish them. This is a natural part of our human nature that we tend to romanticize and elevate our ancestors.
 
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