Migration from the Steppe to Anatolia was 6000-5000 ybp (4000-3000 BC)

Olympus Mons said:

Guys, Guys (and girl)...
Kumtepe6 woman (4800bc) is Shulaveri-Shomu (kicked out from Kotias land 4900bc) with H2 mtdna and always found a bit awkward by decoders because it shifted too much to CHG for a late neolithic in western anatolia. Also that woman shared ancestry with a 1000bc F38 a R1b1a2a2-CTS1078/Z2103 just north of lake Urmia…so Caucasus as well anyways. Actually just near the other R1b (although X L23) from 4000bc.

Just need to sample a bit more. Those kuban river settlements opening the gates to steppe land, arising at the same time (4800bc) as Kumtepe are also the same Anatolia_N loaded up with CHG from kotias land. Probably why Joahanne Krause now makes a map with that migration by 4900 bc. By around 4500bc they were as far away as Samara. Remember… cereals from south Caucasus totally fail I north Caucasus. So, keep on running.

I just figure it out when I read about Kumtepe I(a) (so Kum6) so the founders of Kumtepe and saw the assemblage… oh yes. My shulaveri.
http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/147895.pdf


Large amount of people kicked out… they had to show up somewhere…
Yamnaya and steppe… my a*s.

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing info about this Shulaveri-Shomu culture. Somehow I was not really interested in this culture. But I'm going to try to 'update' my knowledge abut it.


That's why I said that I 'never heard of pre-Yamnaya migration from the Steppes into the Balkans'..

Tomenable said:

It can be true but the problem is: we don't have these samples yet.

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We have Samara and Yamnaya and we have Iran Neolithic. It is obvious that Iran Neolithic deposited 25-30% of their DNA in Yamnaya. Also supported by archeological/cultural achievements in farming and herding of Yamnaya which came from middle East. Extra Baloch and Caucasian admixture didn't come from Siberia or Europe, and their increase mimics Iranian Neolithic proportions. It could only come from Iran with farmers.

Iran_CHL -> Caucasus herders + EHG = Yamnaya.

It is highly unlikely that mesolithic and paleolithic Kotias_Satsurbila Hunters and Gatherers contributed to Bronze Age Yamnaya without the influx of Iranian_Neolithic herders/farmers.

Tomenable said:

Kum4 sample was published in two publications so far:

1) Omrak et al. 2016 - http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(15)01516-X

2) Hofmanová et al. 2016 - http://www.pnas.org/content/113/25/6886.full

Graph from Hofmanová - yellow is Yamnaya admixture, look at Kumtepe4 and 6:

Click to expand...

thank you Tomenable

the all yellow are SATP and KK1

can you tell me who SATP and KK1 are? are they Kotias Klde and Satsurblia?

the blue and the orange, it's obvious

Kostenki shouldn't be around here

I think the parsimonious explanation is that time machines were invented in the Steppe, so Yamna admixed into Kostenki's ancestors via bridal kidnapping.

can you tell me who SATP and KK1 are?

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They are the Caucasus Hunter Gatherers tested here:

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9912

Alan said:

Iran_CHL -> Caucasus herders + EHG = Yamnaya.

It is highly unlikely that mesolithic and paleolithic Kotias_Satsurbila Hunters and Gatherers contributed to Bronze Age Yamnaya.

Click to expand...

Alan. No. but the overall kura valley where Satsurblia and Kotias lived were overrun by the incoming (probably Anatolian) Shulaveri-Shomu by 6200BC. They were diferent than everybody else around. Very complete package of Farming, cattle herding and hunters. By 4900 bc even their bigger settlements were all gone. And there is a conspicous layer of ashes in some of those places. So probably not friendly people coming. Then there were the sioni and later (800 years) it became what is known as the Kura-araxes.

After 1500 years. they must have had lots of CHG in them. Lots of H2 and h13 women loading that CHG into them. So, if you find in north caucasus CHG+Anatolian_N its probably them. A never care about the ones fleeing north (N caucasus and Steppe) but they obviously did. SO, if Iran_neolithic some here talk about is actually CHG, them I garantee you whoever kicked Shulaveri came from the east/south East. Because they flee to the shores of East black sea up to Kuban river (4800bc) and into the steppe (4500bc). Others flee also to black sea shores but south so ending up in Kumtepe (4800bc).

Now, what I am writing next is my personal view. So take it as such.
The reason why you have R1b-L23 and R1b-Z2103 and also R1b-L51 is because those original M269 flee to diferent places. to me M260 (later + L51) are the ones that went south.
I can track Shulaveri style (architecture and way of living package) in Tell tsaf (israel 4800bc) in Merimda (delta Egypt 4.800bc) and even later in Iberia (3500bc). Lets see.
I know that most people these days are more focus on the "ones" fleeing north I supose. To me the ones fleeing south are the interesting ones. they became L51 and made Europe.

@Tomeable, The yellow is the Caucasian/Zagros component.

But are you willing to check the Samarans and Khavalynskians?

Tomenable said:

Kum4 sample was published in two publications so far:

1) Omrak et al. 2016 - http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(15)01516-X

2) Hofmanová et al. 2016 - http://www.pnas.org/content/113/25/6886.full

Graph from Hofmanová - yellow is Yamnaya admixture, look at Kumtepe4 and 6:

Click to expand...

Kostenki and CHG are very different. Kostenki doesn't have Caucasian, and CHG are loaded with it.


Looks like CHG is late arrival to the area. It didn't pick up Med from Anatolians or WHG yet, it didn't pick up SW Asian from Natufians. Got a bit Euro from EHG, and a lot of Baloch, possibly from Iranian HG or it came with it from East?

bicicleur said:

where did they catch that exta WHG ? in the Balkans or in the Carpathian Basin ?
did the cardial ware neolithic also pick this up ?

afaik we have Starcevo and LBK DNA but no EN Balkan DNA, neither EN Greek DNA

and your big if seems to confirm that

I repeat :

they couldn't have picked it up in the Balkans, as there is only one single mesolithic finding in the whole Balkans, and that is in the Varna area
during mesolithic, the Balkans were pretty deserted

there were HG in the Carpathian Basin though, and also some in Greece
but looking at Greek mtDNA , it was probably allready infiltrated by Anatolian HG, it was not WHG

Starcevo culture were isolated settlements ; unlike LBK and early Greek, Starcevo farmers didn't just live from farming, but also from hunting and fishing, I suppose they were more open for contact with local HG

the origin of Central Europe MN is also Carpathian Basin : Sopot and Lengyel, allthough TRB may have had inputs from elsewhere too

anyway I have to update my records
the Tripolye mt-DNA are not included yet

I don't claim this is proof, but it makes sense to me

And I don't know if you noticed :

Kum4 = Kumtepe B period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe = bronze age

Kum6 is from another period = copper age

Turkey

Kumtepe [Kum6]

6,700 BP

H2a

Omrak 2016

Click to expand...

In the following thread you said this about Tripolye:

"I think Tripolye has a multi-ethnic origin :
- LBK people coming from the north
- Starcevo people coming from Carpathian Basin
- 2nd wave neolithic arrival from Central Anatolia

Late Tripolye was also affected by incoming steppe people"


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...polyte-ancient-mtDna?highlight=Tripolye+mtdna

Have you changed your mind?

Of course, we're all just speculating here, until and if the sample is analyzed.

As for Kumtepe, it seems pretty clear to me from the Hofmanova graphic that the increased admixture in Kumtepe was "Caucasus like". In that regard it's interesting that as time passed and you get closer to the founding of Troy the percentage decreased.

In terms of the archaeology I haven't been able to find anything showing influence from the Balkans on Kumtepe; on the contrary, the influence seems to mostly go the other way, with Kumtepe influence reaching way up into the Balkans.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3062571?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

However, there were a lot of different cultures in Anatolia. It's possible that there was one which did show influence from the Balkans. I just haven't found it.

Oh, yes, the Iberia cultures, which were originally Cardial, also show some increase in HG by the MN.

Angela said:

In the following thread you said this about Tripolye:

"I think Tripolye has a multi-ethnic origin :
- LBK people coming from the north
- Starcevo people coming from Carpathian Basin
- 2nd wave neolithic arrival from Central Anatolia

Late Tripolye was also affected by incoming steppe people"


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...polyte-ancient-mtDna?highlight=Tripolye+mtdna

Have you changed your mind?

Of course, we're all just speculating here, until and if the sample is analyzed.

As for Kumtepe, it seems pretty clear to me from the Hofmanova graphic that the increased admixture in Kumtepe was "Caucasus like". In that regard it's interesting that as time passed and you get closer to the founding of Troy the percentage decreased.

In terms of the archaeology I haven't been able to find anything showing influence from the Balkans on Kumtepe; on the contrary, the influence seems to mostly go the other way, with Kumtepe influence reaching way up into the Balkans.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3062571?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

However, there were a lot of different cultures in Anatolia. It's possible that there was one which did show influence from the Balkans. I just haven't found it.

Oh, yes, the Iberia cultures, which were originally Cardial, also show some increase in HG by the MN.

Click to expand...

So far there is no new elements, I haven't changed my mind about Tripolye.
Would it be in contradiction to what I think about Kum4?

I had allready some Tripolye mtDNA, and some Globular Amphora.
The Globular Amphora doesn't seem to match Verteba, but Globular Amphora origin is supposed to be east of the Carpaths (north of Usatovo)
I guess some of the Tripolye underneath is also included in the link you gave me yesterday, but the codes are not the same.


The MN Iberia cultures you mean, I suppose they are the megalithic sites (La Mina et al) ?


The picture for MN/Chalcolithic is much more troubled than for EN.
There are indeed a lot of different cultures in Anatolia, but also in the Balkans.

And yes, it's all guesswork for now.
Waiting for new elements and a better resolution.

bicicleur said:

So far there is no new elements, I haven't changed my mind about Tripolye.
Would it be in contradiction to what I think about Kum4?

I had allready some Tripolye mtDNA, and some Globular Amphora.
The Globular Amphora doesn't seem to match Verteba, but Globular Amphora origin is supposed to be east of the Carpaths (north of Usatovo)
I guess some of the Tripolye underneath is also included in the link you gave me yesterday, but the codes are not the same.

Cucuteni-Trypillia	Ukraine	Verteba Cave [5]		3638–3370 BC			T2a1b1	Nikitin 2010
Cucuteni-Trypillia	Ukraine	Verteba Cave [7b]		3634–3358 BC			H	Nikitin 2010
Cucuteni-Trypillia	Ukraine	Verteba Cave [1]		3619–2936 BC			H	Nikitin 2010
Cucuteni-Trypillia	Ukraine	Verteba Cave [2]		3511–3099 BC			Pre-HV	Nikitin 2010
Cucuteni-Trypillia	Ukraine	Verteba Cave [7a]		3006–2578 BC			HV/V	Nikitin 2010
Cucuteni-Trypillia	Ukraine	Verteba Cave [4]		3006–2488 BC			J	Nikitin 2010
	+ more	Verteba Cave		4900 – 2750 BC		http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...polyte-ancient-mtDna?highlight=Tripolye+mtdna
Globular Amphora	Poland	Kowal 14 [feature 238]		2850-2570 BC			K2a	Kozlowski 2014
Globular Amphora	Poland	Kowal		2850-2570 BC			K	Witas 2015
Globular Amphora Chalcolithic	Poland	Kowal, Kuyavia region		2850-2570 BC			K2a*	Kozlowski 2014

The MN Iberia cultures you mean, I suppose they are the megalithic sites (La Mina et al) ?


The picture for MN/Chalcolithic is much more troubled than for EN.
There are indeed a lot of different cultures in Anatolia, but also in the Balkans.

And yes, it's all guesswork for now.
Waiting for new elements and a better resolution.

Click to expand...

Well, it rather seemed like that to me unless you had some new information. Of course, as you say, there was more than one culture in the Balkans.

As to the Middle Neolithic in Spain, the paper is below. The samples were from Catalonia mostly, I believe.

Guenther et al
http://www.pnas.org/content/112/38/11917.abstract

This is their PCA, where you can see the movement:

"Kumtepe B" people established Troy and Luvian inscriptions were found in Troy.

Also Paris and Priam are Indo-European names, probably Luvian or related ones.

MarkoZ said:

time machines were invented in the Steppe, so Yamna admixed into Kostenki's ancestors

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Kostenki14 belonged to a Proto-Caucasoid population which was ancestral to Crown Eurasian component in all West Eurasians.

Those Kostenki14-like populations also contributed part of ancestry to South Indian hunter-gatherers, but not to East Asians.

In other words, Yamnaya were 50% EHG + 50% CHG and Kostenki14-like population was ancestral to both EHG and CHG.

So much for your erroneous interpretation of Yamna ancestry in Hofmanova's ADMIXTURE analysis. It almost seems like you're just throwing these things out to see what sticks.

Tomenable said:

Kostenki14 belonged to a Proto-Caucasoid population

Click to expand...

Kostenki's skeletal dimensions generally speak of a tropically adapted human. Not sure where you got the impression that K14 is Caucasoid.

which was ancestral to Crown Eurasian component in all West Eurasians.

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If by 'Crown Eurasian' (did you make that up?) you mean the ancestor of West Eurasian Upper Paleolithic populations, that's not entirely accurate though not totally off the mark. K14 is pulled towards Basal Eurasian as demonstrated by Willerslev et al:



source: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2014/11/05/science.aaa0114

It's possible that K14 comes from a population that was ancestral to the late Upper Paleolithic West Eurasians and mixed with a Basal Eurasian population.

Those Kostenki14-like populations also contributed part of ancestry to South Indian hunter-gatherers, but not to East Asians.

Click to expand...

I think the more sensible conclusion would be that K14 still has the signature of his ultimate South-East Asian deep ancestry.

I wrote Proto-Caucasoid (= ancestral to Caucasoids), not Caucasoid.

Tropically adapted Caucasoids or part-Caucasoids have existed as well.

If by 'Crown Eurasian' (did you make that up?)

Click to expand...

No I didn't. Crown Eurasians = all of Eurasians except for Basal Eurasians.

Basal Eurasians were that human group which moved to Arabia after the OoA, Crown Eurasians moved to the Near East.

===============

Thanks for that graph, I forgot that K14 had some Basal admixture as well.

But then I was talking about a K14-like population ("K14 minus Basal" folks), not specifically about K14.

I think the more sensible conclusion would be that K14 still has the signature of his ultimate South-East Asian deep ancestry.

Click to expand...

If that is where his "Basal" came from, then yes.

Had Basal Eurasians expanded from Arabia, along the coast through India, all the way to South-East Asia?

There is a hypothesis about "Southern Migration" and "Northern Migration" routes into Eurasia after the OoA.

Maybe descendants of Basal Eurasians migrated along the southern route, and of Crown Eurasians to the north.

So much for your erroneous interpretation of Yamna ancestry in Hofmanova's ADMIXTURE analysis.

Click to expand...

It is not erroneous (because other types of evidence support it), and not Yamna but most likely Sredni Stog ancestry.

Tomenable said:

Kostenki14 belonged to a Proto-Caucasoid population which was ancestral to Crown Eurasian component in all West Eurasians.

Those Kostenki14-like populations also contributed part of ancestry to South Indian hunter-gatherers, but not to East Asians.

In other words, Yamnaya were 50% EHG + 50% CHG and Kostenki14-like population was ancestral to both EHG and CHG.

Click to expand...

CHG has 55% of Caucasian admixture. Kostenki has 0%.

Tomenable,

Stop deflecting and going off on tangents when you've been proven wrong. You totally misinterpreted the Hofmanova graphic. Everyone who can see and spends two minutes looking at that graphic knows it, so it doesn't prove what you claimed it proved.

Did you just not bother to really examine it, or did you intend to deceive people?

Hofmanova 2016 was a poor publication which got most of things wrong (as explained by the OP in that Anthrogenica thread linked by MarkoZ) - and they got that Kumtepe result only accidentally right. I'm relying first of all on Dodecad K12b and Eurasia K14 which clearly show that Kumtepe4 and 6 had North-Eastern European i.e. Steppe admixture, but Kum4 did not have any Levantine aka. South-West Asian admixture. This is in agreement with data suggesting that Trojans who descended from Kumtepe B people were Luvian-speakers and had Indo-European given names (e.g. Paris, Priam). This is also in agreement with David W. Anthony who wrote that by 4200-4000 BC Proto-Anatolian speakers came from the Steppe to Bulgaria. It is not at all improbable that farmer-herders who established Kumtepe B culture between 3900 and 3200 BC were descended from the same early wave of Steppe emigrants, admixed by Balkan farmers.

In other words I'm not relying on just one graph but on interdisciplinary evidence which support each other and form altogether a coherent picture. I'm not sure why you doubt it - do you think that Anthony is wrong regarding Proto-Anatolian migration?

Kumtepe4 is a BA sample. And it has EHG.
Here a better K5 from Hoffmanova.
It has some 20-30% of EHG (not Yamna). While Armenia Chl has 20% of EHG.
But off course the exact route of that EHG expansion is unknown!!!

Olympos

Good news for You. Aknashen (Shulaveri) site got finances and aDNA from there will not be late.

There are typos in that article. Millenium instead of century.
http://news.am/eng/news/351593.html

@all

Kura araxes (EBA) is very different from Armenia Chl. It is anti EHG. It is mostly ENF/CHG/IranChl.