Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

For Thracians i am pretty sure they didn't encounter, for Pelasgians again it's discutable, Marija Gimbutas proposed that Pelasgians were Late Bronze Age invaders from Grla-Mare Dubovac Culture in Serbia/Romania borders and ancient Greeks just got it totally wrong.

So the ancient Greeks that were 800-1000 years removed got it wrong but somebody 3500 years removed with no evidence is right? OK. Now I don't think that everything that Herodotus or other geographers and historians said is right but come on...
 
So the ancient Greeks that were 800-1000 years removed got it wrong but somebody 3500 years removed with no evidence is right? OK. Now I don't think that everything that Herodotus or other geographers and historians said is right but come on...

Somebody who had access to extensive archeological evidence and informations, we are also removed far more years and have more informations than Herodotus had who relied more on stories being passed, subjective viewpoints. Not trying to undermine him, on contrary, he is considered the father of History for a reason, someone needs to start from beginning.
 
Somebody who had access to extensive archeological evidence and informations, we are also removed far more years and have more informations than Herodotus had who relied more on stories being passed, subjective viewpoints. Not trying to undermine him, on contrary, he is considered the father of History for a reason, someone needs to start from beginning.

and what were Herodotos' sources on this?
Herodotos always mentioned his sources and added what he believed personnaly
 
^^Don't listen to lynxbythetv. He's a t-roll who has made other foolish posts like this in the past. Frankly, he should be removed from the website, imo.
im not a troll. im not wrong if there at one stage was a higher slavic input its not as evident because during the ottoman persecutions many anatolian greeks moved to greece proper and many islanders have moved to the mainland.

i dont actually think greece was all that slavic in the past anyway but you cant discount wars, famines, migrations and plagues having a demographic impact.

its the same for much of anatolia aswell, many of those turkic conquerors put whole cities to the sword.

take for example armenia, the steppe admixture was higher at one stage and then came the mongols who wiped much of it out, allegedly.

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I don't have the faintest clue what you're asking and how it relates to the discussion.
if the myceneans only had a small precentage of steppe admixture then that admixture would be heavily diluted in the cretans.

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Somebody who had access to extensive archeological evidence and informations, we are also removed far more years and have more informations than Herodotus had who relied more on stories being passed, subjective viewpoints. Not trying to undermine him, on contrary, he is considered the father of History for a reason, someone needs to start from beginning.

I can't wait to hear his evidence. If it is linguistics, forget it. So much quackery!
 
im not a troll. im not wrong if there at one stage was a higher slavic input its not as evident because during the ottoman persecutions many anatolian greeks moved to greece proper and many islanders have moved to the mainland.

i dont actually think greece was all that slavic in the past anyway but you cant discount wars, famines, migrations and plagues having a demographic impact.

its the same for much of anatolia aswell, many of those turkic conquerors put whole cities to the sword.

take for example armenia, the steppe admixture was higher at one stage and then came the mongols who wiped much of it out, allegedly.

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You're pulling nonsense out of your backside. Now you can either substantiate your claims with legitimate genetic papers, or you reframe from speaking. This is your final warning.
 
I can't wait to hear his evidence. If it is linguistics, forget it. So much quackery!

What evidence? We know next to nothing about Pelasgians, Gimbutas just hypothesized about Pelasgians being synonymous for Peleset/Philistines, and they in turn showing similarities with Vatin-related culture. It's not verified, but neither negated. We don't even have any archeological site defined as Pelasgian in order to define them clearly, they must have been in chunks here and there already being assimilated into Hellenic identity during Herodotus time.

Otherwise, Pelasgians very well might have been descended from earlier Helladic/Cycladic cultures, being packed with J2a and G2a.
 
What evidence? We know next to nothing about Pelasgians, Gimbutas just hypothesized about Pelasgians being synonymous for Peleset/Philistines, and they in turn showing similarities with Vatin-related culture. It's not verified, but neither negated. We don't even have any archeological site defined as Pelasgian in order to define them clearly, they must have been in chunks here and there already being assimilated into Hellenic identity during Herodotus time.

Otherwise, Pelasgians very well might have been descended from earlier Helladic/Cycladic cultures, being packed with J2a and G2a.

Yeah, I am not aware of any Pelasgian archaeological, anthropological or genetic studies. We only have the writings of Ancient Greek and Roman authors which are contradictory. Here is what Strabo said of the ancient pre-Greek inhabitants:

'Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus, that, before the time of the Greeks, it was inhabited by barbarians. Perhaps even the whole of Greece was, anciently, a settlement of barbarians, if we judge from former accounts. For Pelops brought colonists from Phrygia into the Peloponnesus, which took his name; Danaus brought colonists from Egypt; Dry- opes, Caucones, Pelasgi, Leleges, and other barbarous nations, partitioned among themselves the country on this side of the isthmus. The case was the same on the other side of the isthmus; for Thracians, under their leader Eumolpus, took possession of Attica; Tereus of Daulis in Phocaea; the Phoenicians, with their leader Cadmus, occupied the Cadmeian district; Aones, and Temmices, and Hyantes, Boeotia. Pindar says, `there was a time when the Boeotian people were called Syes.' Some names show their barbarous origin, as Cecrops, Codrus, Ceclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. Thracians, Illyrians, and Epirotae are settled even at present on the sides of Greece. Formerly the territory they possessed was more extensive, although even now the barbarians possess a large part of the country, which, without dispute, is Greece. Macedonia is occupied by Thracians, as well as some parts of Thessaly; the country above Acarnania and Aetolia, by Thesproti, Cassopaei, Amphilochi, Molotti, and Athamanes, Epirotic tribes. Book
7, ch. 7, frg. 1.''


 
For Thracians i am pretty sure they didn't encounter, for Pelasgians again it's discutable, Marija Gimbutas proposed that Pelasgians were Late Bronze Age invaders from Grla-Mare Dubovac Culture in Serbia/Romania borders and ancient Greeks just got it totally wrong.

According to Strabo the Thracians occupied Attica. According to Herodotus the Pelasgians were the original Athenian dwellers.
 
Pelasgians, may be an alter name for non Dorian Greeks,
Possibly Mynians, Minoans, and Myceneans.
 
according to someones (B. Sergent among them), the name Pelasgian could be related to the Phillistins, but this name could have been misused (abusive extension) to name several pre-Greek people, among them among them Anatolian I-Eans and non-I-Ean people -
 
It was just a hypothesis. I gave another hypothesis about Northern Greeks. Thracians were enriched with E-V13 as shown in ancient samples from Serbia. I have also seen some screenshot about lot's of E-V13 in a Thracian zone in an upcomming study.

Highest rates of E-V13 in Greece is Thessaly. Reaches up to 40% in that region. It has far higher rates that the South Slav countries. So we have to look deeper for its origins. Thessaly was the home of the Pelasgians.

So either the people invading from the Steppe from the North mixed with E-V13 Balkanoids along the way South in the Balkans.
Or maybe these people from the Steppe mixed with Thessalian Pelasgians and the went further south, spreading E-v13. It didn't show up yet in Mycenaeans because they have little Steppe, and as such less E-v13. The Dorians may have been one of these waves who brought E-v13 as well.

-6000.jpg

E-v13 could be an element of Thessalian cultures, prior to the arrival of peoples from the Steppe.
 
Highest rates of E-V13 in Greece is Thessaly. Reaches up to 40% in that region. It has far higher rates that the South Slav countries. So we have to look deeper for its origins. Thessaly was the home of the Pelasgians.

So either the people invading from the Steppe from the North mixed with E-V13 Balkanoids along the way South in the Balkans.
Or maybe these people from the Steppe mixed with Thessalian Pelasgians and the went further south, spreading E-v13. It didn't show up yet in Mycenaeans because they have little Steppe, and as such less E-v13. The Dorians may have been one of these waves who brought E-v13 as well.

View attachment 12686

E-v13 could be an element of Thessalian cultures, prior to the arrival of peoples from the Steppe.

The Dorians very likely brought some E-V13 in the Peloponnese but I don't think it was as mainstream in the Classical period as it is now. (I explained the reasoning why before)
I believe that northern Greeks (including Thessalians) and Thracians made it the dominant Y-DNA in the region, it is the most rational explanation I can come up with.
The Slavic hypothesis is a very weak one, not impossible though highly unlikely.

Yeah I just saw them after I made the post. But:
1.) Maniotes are surrounded by E-V13 people.
2.) E-V13 was obviously present in ancient Peloponnese but I don't think it was greater than J2a.
3.) Calabria, Eastern Sicily and Crete have around 7%-9% EV-13 and nearly 30% J2a.
4.) E-V13 does not appear in any of the Roman samples until the Germanic invasions.

One hypothesis of mine is that E-V13 could've been more dominant in northern regions of Greece and Thrace and after northern Greeks and Thracians adopted the koine language the E-V13 started spearding in the south more due to migration and mixture.

Something extra
5.) All regions of Italy (expect for one in north West) outside of Magna Greacia have +5% E-V13 which is not far away from Magna Greacian regions.
 
according to someones (B. Sergent among them), the name Pelasgian could be related to the Phillistins, but this name could have been misused (abusive extension) to name several pre-Greek people, among them among them Anatolian I-Eans and non-I-Ean people -


You are refering to the old testament book of Iezekiel.
and the translation of 70.
'' διὰ τοῦτο τάδε λέγει Κύριος· ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐκτείνω τὴν χεῖρά μου ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀλλοφύλους καὶ ἐξολοθρεύσω Κρῆτας καὶ ἀπολῶ τοὺς καταλοίπους τοὺς κατοικοῦντας τὴν παραλίαν·''

which in hebrew is
טז לָכֵן, כֹּה אָמַר אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה, הִנְנִי נוֹטֶה יָדִי עַל-פְּלִשְׁתִּים, וְהִכְרַתִּי אֶת-כְּרֵתִים; וְהַאֲבַדְתִּי, אֶת-שְׁאֵרִית חוֹף הַיָּם.

which in Hebrew is Heret or Harit from Caphthor
 
Hello,

according to this paper, what percentage of the Late Bronze Era Myceneans and Minoans were J2a?
 
Hello,

according to this paper, what percentage of the Late Bronze Era Myceneans and Minoans were J2a?

2 Mycenaeans were J2a out of 4. Also 4 Empuries samples that were Mycenean-like were all J, probably all J2a too.
J2a is very high in Sicily, especially Eastern Sicily, Calabria, Crete, and it is higher in Maniots than in other Peloponnesians.
 
2 Mycenaeans were J2a out of 4. Also 4 Empuries samples that were Mycenean-like were all J, probably all J2a too.
J2a is very high in Sicily, especially Eastern Sicily, Calabria, Crete, and it is higher in Maniots than in other Peloponnesians.

Thank you for your answer.
Could that mean that the Myceneans were a more or less homogeneous people regarding their Y Dna ancestry?
The pie chart with the various haplogroups would be like modern day Ireland, if that is the case.


Is any research done on what haplogroup were the classical Greeks and what were the percentages of each haplogroup?


Empuries was an Ionian colony in the antiquity. If they were predominantly J2, then the classical Athenians could possibly be predominantly J2 too.


I wonder what haplogroup the Spartans and the Macedonians were.
 
Thank you for your answer.
Could that mean that the Myceneans were a more or less homogeneous people regarding their Y Dna ancestry?
The pie chart with the various haplogroups would be like modern day Ireland, if that is the case.


Is any research done on what haplogroup were the classical Greeks and what were the percentages of each haplogroup?


Empuries was an Ionian colony in the antiquity. If they were predominantly J2, then the classical Athenians could possibly be predominantly J2 too.

I wonder what haplogroup the Spartans and the Macedonians were.

"The pie chart with the various haplogroups would be like modern day Ireland, if that is the case."
Ireland is 70%-80% R1b.
I suppose something like that but more diverse. J2a, G, T and the Anatolian R1b IMO were 95%-99% of Mycenaean Y-DNA. With J2a being on top.
Maybe Peloponnese in Bronze Age was 50%-60% J2a.



"Is any research done on what haplogroup were the classical Greeks and what were the percentages of each haplogroup?"
No, that's a very hard one.
 
One R1b was found in Ambracia, in Classical Greece (unpublished result). On the mtDNA side, several haplogroup H samples were found, and one haplogroup W. It would not be surprising to find more R1b in Classical Greece or later, given how widespread it is.
 

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