Corded Ware Culture Signals Population Change in Europe

I add:
that said, Corded shew culturally affinities with the Battle-Axes people of South-Baltic and the 'boat-shaped Axes' ('haches naviformes') of Scandinavia were a proto-satem language could have been spoken before germanic: first I-E introgression into SW Finnland?
and before finnic language
 
Sile said:
ok, still R* has no association with R1 or R2 , so there is no point in trying to say that this R* siberian is this amount of western markers or that amount of markers. R* stands alone
Click to expand...

R207 is not R*??? yes it is

by the fact you seem assuming that a human being bearing a y-R* HG has nothing to do autosomally with an other human being bearing a "son" successive SNP on the chain??? Curious, or I didn't understand your point ? according to the time passed and to crossings and drifts, they could have very different genes but also very close genes, no?
every separation by added mutation on the Y-HG does not cut brutally the chain of heredity -

it's true that two ligneages bearing the same Y-SNP can have different lifs and histories with the subsequent modification in autosomals
 
Sile said:
It was not R1a*............it was R* ...........it was neither R1 or R2 branch and now this R* is noted as extinct.

Basal R-M207 origins is in south-east asia ( sundaland) ...read the karafet paper of June 2014
Click to expand...

I never said that Mal'ta Boy was R1a - I said that it was ancestral R. Please learn how to read. And R1a would have evolved from some line of R1*, which would have evolved from some line of R*. I think that's fairly obvious, at least if one is using R* to denote R haplotype not yet further differentiated. However, it seems that some people are instead using the asterisk to denote an extinct line.
 
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Alan said:
Just because it was fuound in Siberia doesn't mean it originated there It simply meeans it has reached Siberia already 24000 years ago. Another Indication for that is that this individuals autosomal DNA is more akine to West Eurasians. so he must have migrated there from further West.

Also we don't have any South_Central or West Asian dna from the same timeline yet. Who tells us that we will not find any 24000 year old R* in South_Central Asia too?
Click to expand...

You're making my point for me. Saying that a particular haplotype was in a particular location at a particular time does not prove that a downstream version must have evolved in that location. And that was the only point I was really making. Even if Goga can prove that some R1a* types were living in Iran 15000 years ago, that doesn't prove anything about where Z283 and Z93 evolved.
 
Sile said:
ok, still R* has no association with R1 or R2 , so there is no point in trying to say that this R* siberian is this amount of western markers or that amount of markers. R* stands alone
Click to expand...

Edited version:

Some people use R* to refer to people who have the R haplotype not yet further differentiated, so that's how I was using the term. For example, in his discussion of R1a, Maciamo said:

"Haplogroup R1a probably branched off from R1* during or soon after the Last Glacial Maxium. Little is know for certain about its place of origin. Some think it might have originated in the Balkans or around Pakistan and Northwest India, due to the greater genetic diversity found in these regions. The diversity can be explained by other factors though. The Balkans have been subject to 5000 years of migrations from the Eurasian Steppes, each bringing new varieties of R1a. South Asia has had a much bigger population than any other parts of the world (occasionally equalled by China) for at least 10,000 years, and larger population bring about more genetic diversity. The most likely place of origin of R1a is Central Asia or southern Russia/Siberia."


However, I had a quick look around the internet and found that some sites do use the asterisk to denote a subclade that became extinct. So I guess the usage is not consistent.
 
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MOESAN said:
R207 is not R*??? yes it is

by the fact you seem assuming that a human being bearing a y-R* HG has nothing to do autosomally with an other human being bearing a "son" successive SNP on the chain??? Curious, or I didn't understand your point ? according to the time passed and to crossings and drifts, they could have very different genes but also very close genes, no?
every separation by added mutation on the Y-HG does not cut brutally the chain of heredity -

it's true that two ligneages bearing the same Y-SNP can have different lifs and histories with the subsequent modification in autosomals
Click to expand...

The Mal'ta boy, MA-1, carried distinct yDNA R* and mtDNA U* lineages. While both are clearly related to those dominant in Europe and parts of Asia (West, South) nowadays, they are also distinct from any specific dominant lineage today.


R* (yDNA) is neither R1 nor R2 but another distinct branch of R. This kind of R(xR1, R2) is most rare today and found mostly in and around NW South Asia. Following Wikipedia, this "other R" is found in:

  • 10.3% among the Burusho
  • 6.8% among the Kalash
  • 3.4% among the Gujarati

study by Wei-Hua Shou et al. (2010) titled Y-chromosome distributions among populations in Northwest China identify significant contribution from Central Asian pastoralists and lesser influence of western Eurasians, published by Nature (doi:10.1038/jhg.2010.30).

While it does add some information about unmistakable R(xR1,R2) and P(xQ,R) among Central Asian populations (from P.R. China territory). In detail:

  • R* is found in 5/31 Tayiks, 1/41 Kazakhs and 1/50 Uyghurs.
  • P* is found in 1/31 Tayiks and 1/43 Kirgizes.
 
Aberdeen said:
You're making my point for me. Saying that a particular haplotype was in a particular location at a particular time does not prove that a downstream version must have evolved in that location. And that was the only point I was really making. Even if Goga can prove that some R1a* types were living in Iran 15000 years ago, that doesn't prove anything about where Z283 and Z93 evolved.
Click to expand...

I think that's correct. If we've learned anything, it's that our predictions about y dna, in particular, can be very wrong. Who expected E-V13 in the western Mediterranean Neolithic, or that we wouldn't have found J2 in the European Neolithic? I think we've also learned that ancient populations moved around a lot.
 
Aberdeen said:
Edited version:

Some people use R* to refer to people who have the R haplotype not yet further differentiated, so that's how I was using the term. For example, in his discussion of R1a, Maciamo said:

"Haplogroup R1a probably branched off from R1* during or soon after the Last Glacial Maxium. Little is know for certain about its place of origin. Some think it might have originated in the Balkans or around Pakistan and Northwest India, due to the greater genetic diversity found in these regions. The diversity can be explained by other factors though. The Balkans have been subject to 5000 years of migrations from the Eurasian Steppes, each bringing new varieties of R1a. South Asia has had a much bigger population than any other parts of the world (occasionally equalled by China) for at least 10,000 years, and larger population bring about more genetic diversity. The most likely place of origin of R1a is Central Asia or southern Russia/Siberia."


However, I had a quick look around the internet and found that some sites do use the asterisk to denote a subclade that became extinct. So I guess the usage is not consistent.
Click to expand...

Please, please read Karafet June 2014 paper or will it upset you to find that R is not west-asian , but south-east Asia in origin.

The bulk of people who you read that are claiming this marker is R1a or R1b this or that in origin always leave out the subclade , because they want that R1a or R1b to be western . Read the paper to check how ydna trees work

Mal'ta should have been noted as R0 and not R* as he is 71 SNPs away from R1 and 260 SNP's away from R2 . As i said he does not belong to R1 or R2
In human genetics, * is used to denote that someone is a member of a haplogroup and not any of its subclades

On plotting charts he sits on his own
 
Alan said:
I think we are talking past each other. R* have no association with R1 or R2 has not much to do with Mal'ta with haplogroup R* having autosomally up to 70% West Eurasian DNA and so is unlikely to have arrived from somewhere in Southeast Asia.

Thats the point.
Click to expand...

In human genetics, * is used to denote that someone is a member of a haplogroup and not any of its subclades

Mal'ta has no association with west eurasian , south Eurasian , martian Eurasian or anything else in relation to people today, this is because it will count for nothing, his SNP's are too far from modern man, you are only "tricking" people in thinking they might be related to this person back in the ancienrt times
 
R1a in Kurdistan Zagros Mountains is not only the oldest but also one of the most DIVERSE. You can find all kind of types of R1a in Kurdistan and not only 1 specific R1a lineage of 1 branch (bottleneck). But many different branches.
 
Goga said:
R1a in Kurdistan Zagros Mountains is not only the oldest but also one of the most DIVERSE. You can find all kind of types of R1a in Kurdistan and not only 1 specific R1a lineage of 1 branch (bottleneck). But many different branches.
Click to expand...

here we go again...............which subclade ? ..........the R1a on its own means zero
 
Sile said:
here we go again...............which subclade ? ..........the R1a on its own means zero
Click to expand...
Haplogroup+R1a+MiddleEast.png

Haplogroup+R1a+Eastern+Europe.png

Haplogroup+R1a+Central+Asia.png
Haplogroup+R1a+Jews.png
 
Goga said:
As you CAN see here : http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2014/03/underhill-et-al-2014.html , R1a in West Asia is MUCH more diverse than R1a elsewhere, be it in Europe, the Steppes or Central Asia! R1a in the eastern Europe is mostly from Z283. R1a in Central Asia is mostly from Z93. R1a in West Asia has EVERYTHING!
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Ok, R1a-M420 is what you say, but that marker is 8000 years younger than R-M207 and R-M207 is Basal for R and its in South-east Asia...read the karafet paper

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

M420 is not a basal marker of R ...it is a "basal" marker for R1a ...if the term basal is accepted in this method
 
Sile said:
Ok, R1a-M420 is what you say, but that marker is 8000 years younger than R-M207 and R-M207 is Basal for R and its in South-east Asia...read the karafet paper

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

M420 is not a basal marker
Click to expand...
I'm not denying that R could be from South-East Asia. I'm only saying that R1a AND R1b evolved somewhere around the Iranian Plateau, Zagros Mountains and migrated into Europe AND India with proto-Indo-European speaking folks. The SPLIT between Z283 and Z93 of R1a occurred in West Asia! 1 branch (Z283) migrated into the Steppes, second branch (z93) went into South Central Asia. Why? Because R1a is in West Asia the oldest and the most diverse. That's why!
 
Haplogroup+R1a+MiddleEast.png


Vs.

Haplogroup+R1a+Caucasus.png

 
Haplogroup+R1a+MiddleEast.png


Vs.

Haplogroup+R1a+Central+Asia.png

 
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