Over 50 ancient R1a samples in the context of archaeological cultures

Ray Banks has some age estimates too, but not for all haplogroups.
Most of his estimates are older than YFull, e.g. for C age his estimate is 75000 years
https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/c
the Ust-Ishim bone was 45000 years old, according to Genetiker he had 2 out of 7 SNP's of K-M2335 http://www.yfull.com/tree/K-M2335/
So Ust-Ishim was pré-NO. IMO opinion it is likely that NO split into N & O in Altaï Mts 45000 years ago.
As for Q & R maybe they are younger than 38000 years, but I think older than what YFull says because there are so many known SNP's for Q1b branch
If Q & R are less than 38000 years old, then P1 arrived in Altaï Mts 38000 years ago and Q and R were born a bit later

Q in YFull :
L274 = Q1
L275 = Q1b
L472 = Q1a
F1096 = Q1a1
L56 = Q1a2
 
LeBrok said:
How about the peking man?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peking_Man
220px-Peking_Man.jpg
Click to expand...

the Peking man was probably a homo erectus, who left Africa +/- 1.900.000 years ago

there were some 40.000 y.o. bones found of a modern human in a cave near Beijing
his mtDNA is B , Y-DNA is unknown
no artefacts or tools found - culture unknown

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianyuan_man

maybe some haplo N who had lost the way
 
arvistro said:
So, you suggest N1c was in Europe before 3000 bce and it is the small amount of samples why first N1c was caught 2500 bce?

Do you think Swiderian culture was already R1a?
Click to expand...

pottery existed more than 20.000 years ago near the Yangtze river, China
13000 years ago it entered eastern Siberia, probably with haplo N
it spread further west till Europe it crossed Ural some 9000 years ago
maybe this was not N, but R1a
the pottery may well have been spread by the women who were with haplo N : note that the Karelian R1a1* HG had mtDNA C1g
a mesolithic sample near Irkutsk, Siberia also turned out mtDNA C : http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

first Swiderian was allready in Poland before the youngest dryas, and also there would be a link with Solutrean. That is why I think it is haplo I
Kunda, Narva and Zedmar seem to be Swiderian-derived, and they all had mt-DNA U5b or U4 : http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml
I think all people of Swiderian or later derived cultures finally got extinct, most of them replaced by R1a (and maybe also N and other I)
 
Tomenable said:

It is quite possible that R1 did not yet exist 24,000 years ago:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1

Moreover, Mal'ta boy was one individual, and he was R*.

But his cousin could be R1, his another cousin could be R2, etc. They could be in the same population.


Q and R did probably not yet exist 38,000 years ago.

R arose some 31,400 years ago (33,500-29,300) according to YFull:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R/

Q arose some also around the same time as R according to YFull:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/Q/


This is great news indeed, thanks!



Both Q1a1 and Q1a2 are descended from Q1a, and they could be literally cousins at the beginning.

Is Q1a M378 ??? - http://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-M378/
Click to expand...

You need to study your fyull dates, N is 10000 years older than R1, the likely conclusion, is that N ( China/mongolia ) and R1a ( BMAC ) met in central asia before heading west.
 
bicicleur said:
the Peking man was probably a homo erectus, who left Africa +/- 1.900.000 years ago

there were some 40.000 y.o. bones found of a modern human in a cave near Beijing
his mtDNA is B , Y-DNA is unknown
no artefacts or tools found - culture unknown

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianyuan_man

maybe some haplo N who had lost the way
Click to expand...
He asked when first mongoloid features popped up. I'm sure Homo Sapiens mixed with East Asian Homo Erectus (the peking man like people) and created East Asian phenotype.
 
That Peking Man doesn't look East Asian. He doesn't look like any group of modern humans.

But if I have to choose from, then he looks more like Veddoid or Australoid than like East Asian.

1ffd6h.jpg
 
LeBrok said:
He asked when first mongoloid features popped up. I'm sure Homo Sapiens mixed with East Asian Homo Erectus (the peking man like people) and created East Asian phenotype.
Click to expand...

I don't know whether homo erectus DNA has been sequenced and compared with modern human DNA

I guess if any admixture would be detected it would be big news
 
bicicleur said:
I don't know whether homo erectus DNA has been sequenced and compared with modern human DNA

I guess if any admixture would be detected it would be big news
Click to expand...
I think it will be one day. The same way there was a big news when finally we learned that Homo Sapiens had sex with Neanderthals. Neanderthals were Homo Erectus, so why not the same scenario had place in East Asia between Home Sapiens and their Home Erectus?
 
Tomenable said:
That Peking Man doesn't look East Asian. He doesn't look like any group of modern humans.

But if I have to choose from, then he looks more like Veddoid or Australoid than like East Asian.

1ffd6h.jpg
Click to expand...
You are right, he looks more like predecessor of East Asians. ;)
 
LeBrok said:
I think it will be one day. The same way there was a big news when finally we learned that Homo Sapiens had sex with Neanderthals. Neanderthals were Homo Erectus, so why not the same scenario had place in East Asia between Home Sapiens and their Home Erectus?
Click to expand...

no, Neanderthals nor Denisovans were homo erectus who had left Africa allready 1.900.000 years ago
Neanderthals and Denisovans left Africa much later

see this tree based on mtDNA :

http://www.cell.com/action/showImagesData?pii=S0960-9822(13)00215-7
 
We are only something like 2% - 3% Neanderthal.

However, there was probably a lot of sex with Neanderthals - but most of that sex produced infertile offspring (let's call them "mules"), while only a small % of the offspring was fertile, and could pass that tiny Neanderthal admixture to next generations:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140129134956.htm

(...) Using this and other types of information, the team found that some areas of the modern non-African human genome were rich in Neanderthal DNA, which may have been helpful for human survival, while other areas were more like "deserts" with far less Neanderthal ancestry than average.

The barren areas were the "most exciting" finding, said first author Sriram Sankararaman of HMS and the Broad Institute. "It suggests the introduction of some of these Neanderthal mutations was harmful to the ancestors of non-Africans and that these mutations were later removed by the action of natural selection."

The team showed that the areas with reduced Neanderthal ancestry tend to cluster in two parts of our genomes: genes that are most active in the male germline (the testes) and genes on the X chromosome. This pattern has been linked in many animals to a phenomenon known as hybrid infertility, where the offspring of a male from one subspecies and afemale from another have low or no fertility.

"This suggests that when ancient humans met and mixed with Neanderthals, the two species were at the edge of biological incompatibility," said Reich, who is also a senior associate member of the Broad Institute and an investigator at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. Present-day human populations, which can be separated from one another by as much as 100,000 years (such as West Africans and Europeans), are fully compatible with no evidence of increased male infertility. In contrast, ancient human and Neanderthal populations apparently faced interbreeding challenges after 500,000 years of evolutionary separation.

"It is fascinating that thesetypes of problems could arise over that short a time scale," Reich said. (...)
Click to expand...

If humans could only barely produce fertile offspring with Neanderthals, then I don't think that they could with Erectus. I don't doubt that humans had sex with Erectus (today there are on this planet numerous zoophiles who like having sex with far more distant mammal species, such as sheep!), but it's almost certain that they couldn't produce offspring, or at least fertile offspring.
 
Tomenable said:
That Peking Man doesn't look East Asian. He doesn't look like any group of modern humans.

But if I have to choose from, then he looks more like Veddoid or Australoid than like East Asian.

1ffd6h.jpg
Click to expand...

is


I think New Guinea people still have that look

but that nose I think survived in Central Asia looking
 
Yetos said:
is


I think New Guinea people still have that look

but that nose I think survived in Central Asia looking
Click to expand...
There must have been a separate migration which went form East Africa to Australia.
 
Tomenable said:
We are only something like 2% - 3% Neanderthal.

However, there was probably a lot of sex with Neanderthals - but most of that sex produced infertile offspring (let's call them "mules"), while only a small % of the offspring was fertile, and could pass that tiny Neanderthal admixture to next generations:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140129134956.htm



If humans could only barely produce fertile offspring with Neanderthals, then I don't think that they could with Erectus. I don't doubt that humans had sex with Erectus (today there are on this planet numerous zoophiles who like having sex with far more distant mammal species, such as sheep!), but it's almost certain that they couldn't produce offspring, or at least fertile offspring.
Click to expand...

there is another issue : modern humans probalby never met Peking Man, he was probably extinct before modern humans got there

there is another species : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis
probably another descendant of homo erectus
he must have had contact with modern humans as he went extinct recently
they were dwarfs hunting dwarf elephants and dwarf hippos
 
LeBrok said:
There must have been a separate migration which went form East Africa to Australia.
Click to expand...

maybe some early haplo A arrived there before descendants of haplo CT and mixed with later arrivals without leaving any Y- or mtDNA
 
I agree for the most. I 'm a bit amazed how you can read so much threads and provide docs. you're searching facts and not only opinions and I appreciate that.
Sorry I can't send you a "numeral" drink !
after this bursting of applauds I go back to the thread: what would be fine would be have the detailed SNPs of all these diverse Y-R1a to weight possibilities of moves.
 
bicicleur said:
maybe some early haplo A arrived there before descendants of haplo CT and mixed with later arrivals without leaving any Y- or mtDNA
Click to expand...

What is haplogroup CT ?
where is this stated

I do not see it here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragroup

but see it as meaning every haplogroup from C to T as per this paper
Van Oven M, Van Geystelen A, Kayser M, Decorte R, Larmuseau HD (2014). "Seeing the wood for the trees: a minimal reference phylogeny for the human Y chromosome". Human Mutation 35 (2): 187–91. doi:10.1002/humu.22468. PMID 24166809.
 
Tomenable said:
We are only something like 2% - 3% Neanderthal.

However, there was probably a lot of sex with Neanderthals - but most of that sex produced infertile offspring (let's call them "mules"), while only a small % of the offspring was fertile, and could pass that tiny Neanderthal admixture to next generations:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140129134956.htm



If humans could only barely produce fertile offspring with Neanderthals, then I don't think that they could with Erectus. I don't doubt that humans had sex with Erectus (today there are on this planet numerous zoophiles who like having sex with far more distant mammal species, such as sheep!), but it's almost certain that they couldn't produce offspring, or at least fertile offspring.
Click to expand...

I found this article today :

http://www.thewire.com/technology/2...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

it is rather vague in details
 
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