Health New Coronavirus in China

many Italians already in Australia on a 1 year visit have been automatically extended to 2 years ...........so my cousin has 18 months left in Perth ...............most are under 35 yo

her mum in Veneto said....you can only go directly to the chemist or groceries now and if you walk around you get questioned and fined
 
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I guess instead of banning travel the idea is let it spread throughout the world unchecked until "herd immunity" is achieved?

People should make up their minds. First it's quarantine everyone, or at least shut everything down early to "flatten the curve"; if you don't or didn't it's your fault if it spreads. Now it's hey, let's keep that travel and commerce going, who cares?

Problem is that if it spreads unchecked, and even 10% of the infected need ICUs all within a few months all our health systems will crash, bar none. Good luck then if you have a heart attack or get cancer or need dialysis.

I suppose some people think it will only happen to the other guy. Good luck with that.

If the hospitals are going to "triage" health care, I bet someone will suggest that perhaps those who didn't believe it was worth worrying about should go to the bottom of the list.

The market has been gyrating wildly for days. It's not all about Europe. It's about FEAR as they realize that if everything is locked down the way it is in Italy their stocks may be worth a fraction of their prior value. That includes me, by the way. Not all my money is in metals and government securities.

Among the many in the list of what "they" should have done, imo "they" should have closed trading days ago.

To give you an impression how 'the rest of the world' is conceiving this, this article from the German weekly newspaper Die Zeit, one of the best in depth newspapers of Europe. Very prudent.

This is their headline today:

The paranoid president

Donald Trump doesn't understand the corona pandemic. Instead: the Europeans as scapegoats. To save lives, the US president would have to do the opposite in everything.

https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2020-03/coronavirus-usa-donald-trump-pandemie
 
A nurse from Madrid has sent me a voice message saying that things are more serious than what is being said, that the politicians
Yes it is to be alarmed.

have done it and are doing fatal. There are two young boys and girls who know they are going to die. Children are the ones that present milder symptoms but are great contagious, avoid taking them with grandparents, who are the most vulnerable group. And he advises me to leave home for the essentials, avoid meetings, congregations, bars, restaurants, e.t.c.


What the governments or politicians do not say is said by a nurse.


Minister Celaá with "purple" gloves in the demonstration of the women who had no nose to postpone.

images


Pablo Iglesias's wife and that he has put to the finger in a ministry, because that plover's head is already infested.
 
To give you an impression how 'the rest of the world' is conceiving this, this article from the German weekly newspaper Die Zeit, one of the best in depth newspapers of Europe. Very prudent.

This is their headline today:



https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2020-03/coronavirus-usa-donald-trump-pandemie

Let me be clear: I don't give a darn how the rest of the world perceives the U.S., or even how they perceive Trump. Did you really expect that I would? Not all Americans have this attitude, but at least 50% and more certainly do, and I'm one of them.

It may make me angry, as it does, as did the stupid comments about Italy, but I would never "internalize" any of it in either situation. I haven't expected intelligent, rational political opinions from Europeans since so many of them all got on the unilateral disarmament bandwagon.

I'd also say that's pretty rich coming from Germany, given how some of their ministers have been touting how efficient they've been at contact tracing and quarantining people.

Just out of curiosity, should travel from China have been banned? Were the people of Hong Kong wrong to close the bridges to China? Isn't the banning of internal travel, indeed, the banning of movement on the streets part of the reason that China was able to lower the infection and death rate?

Closing access off from highly infected areas is either a good idea or it's not. If it's a good idea it should be done. Why should Europe, including Italy, get a pass?

Do I think that closing access from Europe means it won't continue to spread in the U.S.? Of course not, but why in hell would anyone INCREASE the problem???

Sorry; it makes no sense to me.

As for anyone thinking that Trump wanted to do it, well, I'd ask if that person is using recreational drugs. This is ruining his economy and stock market, an economy and stock market which put Europe's and everyone else's completely in the shade. Really, Trump derangement syndrome makes some of these leaders look like fools.

Before you respond, I didn't vote for him, I intensely dislike him as a person, and I don't think he was doing a great job on the coronavirus. Yesterday was better. He's a quick learner. Hopefully, he'll get it even more together. Who with any decency wouldn't want him to get this under control? This is people's lives, and also their livelihoods and the savings of a lifetime. I, for one, and most people, I think, don't take it lightly that under the best case scenario we might lose really large percentages of people over 60, or people who have any kind of health issues. Those are people we love, to whom we're deeply attached, and who would be sorely missed. If some people don't feel that way about the older and less healthy people in their lives, then I feel deeply sorry for them. They're missing so much.

I'm also amazed by the arrogance of thinking I've seen in some people on the internet that because one is on the "right" side of 60, this isn't important. There are 20 and 30 year olds in ICU with this. I wonder if people with this attitude would change their minds if they wind up in an ICU? And no, this isn't just like the flu.
 
Why am I not surprised by how China is framing this...

"China steps up in assisting Italy after the country reportedly didn't get help from the EU to battle COVID-19."
https://newsus.cgtn.com/news/2020-0...p-Italy-battle-COVID-19-OOuv42jQnm/index.html

Of course, for China it's great public relations. Not that I care. I was in tears most of yesterday. My poor Italy. I'm grateful for help from wherever it comes. Let China have its public relations coup.

I also don't doubt that Italy was told it was on its own. So much for EU solidarity and concerted and common effort against this.

Hopefully this will change the mind of any Italians who still wanted to be part of the European union.
 
Why am I not surprised by how China is framing this...

"China steps up in assisting Italy after the country reportedly didn't get help from the EU to battle COVID-19."
https://newsus.cgtn.com/news/2020-0...p-Italy-battle-COVID-19-OOuv42jQnm/index.html

Of course, for China it's great public relations. Not that I care. I was in tears most of yesterday. My poor Italy. I'm grateful for help from wherever it comes. Let China have its public relations coup.

I also don't doubt that Italy was told it was on its own. So much for EU solidarity and concerted and common effort against this.

Hopefully this will change the mind of any Italians who still wanted to be part of the European union.

The U.S. is supposed to not ban people from Europe coming to the U.S., but if Italy hadn't unilaterally closed its borders I'm absolutely certain people from Italy trying to get out would have been met by armed troops.

Seems a bit like don't do what I do, do what I say.
 
Let me be clear: I don't give a darn how the rest of the world perceives the U.S., or even how they perceive Trump. Did you really expect that I would? Not all Americans have this attitude, but at least 50% and more certainly do, and I'm one of them.

It may make me angry, as it does, as did the stupid comments about Italy, but I would never "internalize" any of it in either situation. I haven't expected intelligent, rational political opinions from Europeans since so many of them all got on the unilateral disarmament bandwagon.

I'd also say that's pretty rich coming from Germany, given how some of their ministers have been touting how efficient they've been at contact tracing and quarantining people.

Just out of curiosity, should travel from China have been banned? Were the people of Hong Kong wrong to close the bridges to China? Isn't the banning of internal travel, indeed, the banning of movement on the streets part of the reason that China was able to lower the infection and death rate?

Closing access off from highly infected areas is either a good idea or it's not. If it's a good idea it should be done. Why should Europe, including Italy, get a pass?

Do I think that closing access from Europe means it won't continue to spread in the U.S.? Of course not, but why in hell would anyone INCREASE the problem???

Sorry; it makes no sense to me.

As for anyone thinking that Trump wanted to do it, well, I'd ask if that person is using recreational drugs. This is ruining his economy and stock market, an economy and stock market which put Europe's and everyone else's completely in the shade. Really, Trump derangement syndrome makes some of these leaders look like fools.

Before you respond, I didn't vote for him, I intensely dislike him as a person, and I don't think he was doing a great job on the coronavirus. Yesterday was better. He's a quick learner. Hopefully, he'll get it even more together. Who with any decency wouldn't want him to get this under control? This is people's lives, and also their livelihoods and the savings of a lifetime. I, for one, and most people, I think, don't take it lightly that under the best case scenario we might lose really large percentages of people over 60, or people who have any kind of health issues. Those are people we love, to whom we're deeply attached, and who would be sorely missed. If some people don't feel that way about the older and less healthy people in their lives, then I feel deeply sorry for them. They're missing so much.

I'm also amazed by the arrogance of thinking I've seen in some people on the internet that because one is on the "right" side of 60, this isn't important. There are 20 and 30 year olds in ICU with this. I wonder if people with this attitude would change their minds if they wind up in an ICU? And no, this isn't just like the flu.

The corona virus shows we live, more than even 20 or 30 years ago in a global village. A virus in Wuhan is few weeks later virulent on Iceland. So what the Italians, the Chinese and also the US do effects al others. Certainly the US represent a big part of the global village. So in such a situation pointing at eachother as Trump does, he even speaks about a ‘foreign virus’ is in some sense pointless.....

For the ban as such experts in viruses say ok this would prevent a little bit, but at what costs? And most of all this measure is not the ‘game changer’.

Where a nation state still can make the difference is measures for their territory. There we see no plan in the US....so this will probably cost lives. And in my impression the US is internal very vulnerable, 10% has no health assurance and lots of US people get not paid if they don’t work. These are with a virulent virus at least complicating factors.

ok I could say I don’t care it’s on the other side of the Ocean, but every life is one, and what happens in the US will in the end effect Europe, will effect my country, will effect me....
 
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The U.S. is supposed to not ban people from Europe coming to the U.S., but if Italy hadn't unilaterally closed its borders I'm absolutely certain people from Italy trying to get out would have been met by armed troops.

Seems a bit like don't do what I do, do what I say.

Italy closed it's borders, and then send all foreigners who were inside Italy home without any controll.
It spread the Corona inside Europe even more.
Mind you, they made the same mistake here in Brussels.
2 planes from Milan arrived in Brussels that day and none of the passengers were checked - unlike passengers coming from China when Corona had started there.

Your claim about armed troops is grotesk.
 
Italian data as of yesterday:

I think Italy is being affected by some mutated more dangerous strain of the virus, because I don't see any other explanation why over 50% of all infected have to be hospitalized, almost 1/10 in intensive care and mortality rate almost 7% (in some other countries only 10% require hospitalization - with ca. 7000 in hospitals, there should be ca. 70,000 cases in total in Italy, not 13,000):

=====

Total cases: 15,113

Active cases: 12,839
Of which in hospitals: 6,650
Of which in intensive care: 1,153

=====

Closed cases:

Recovered: 1,258
Deaths: 1,016
Mortality: 6,72%

=====

I've read that the virus has already mutated, there are at least a few strains including "type S" (original) and "type L" (more contagious and causing stronger symptoms) and probably a few more unnamed so far (I suspect some really bad strain must be common in Italy considering their situation).

If you get immunity to one strain it doesn't guarantee immunity to another strain. In China there were few cases of people who recovered from "S" getting sick with "L" once again (these two types were identified by Chinese geneticists, so this "L" mutation took place already back in China).

See the video:

 
coronavirus

you-cant-hide-behind-your-finger.jpg



to all those who hide the truth,
they know who are they,
we know who are they,

a hurray to Italy and Iran, for bravery,
for giving true data,
no matter how painfull it is.
 
^^^ It is not about "true data", it is about different strains of the virus some of which are more contagious and/or more deadly than others. Chinese scientists have already discovered two major strains (ancestral "S type" and the new "L type" mutation) just within China. And there might be other new strains elsewhere.
 
Let's apply some reason, shall we?

When refugees of the the "wrong" color were taking trains into France from Italy, the French police were instructed to stop the trains at the border. Hungary did the same. Germany, and Belgium, could have done the same, but then they would have exposed themselves to censure not only from abroad but from their own citizens, the ones still capable of rational thought, of course.

United States citizens who are in Europe are allowed to come home to get away from the virus even though all other human travel from Europe is banned. Christ, we sent planes to get our citizens out of Wuhan. Anything else would be monstrous and an abdication of our responsibility to them. Of course, it's on us to check them and quarantine them on arrival. That shouldn't even need to be pointed out.

Are we to believe the oh, so efficient, countries of Germany and Belgium and the Netherlands, for example, were too incompetent to do this? England is doing it for their British citizens, what about the rest? Or, were people put on self-quarantine and some broke it?

My, my what has happened to the communal spirit in these countries? Their countrymen don't want them to come home, and if they do come home are so lacking in foresight that they didn't put them in quarantine? That's someone else's fault? Or, have they suddenly lost their vaunted ability to follow orders, no matter what they're like?

I guess some people are also not keeping up with the latest scientific reports: in Germany, for example, only some of the cases, mostly in Baden-Wurttemberg are of the same strain as showed up in Lombardia originally, which, of course, were first seen in Munich.

If people are going to opine, just not to embarass themselves, surely they should do their research.

Honestly, if I hear again how much more rational men are than women I may "barf" as we say. Or maybe racism and/or abject fear removes the ability to think rationally in some people.

On to rational commentary, based on papers, not prejudice.
 
Criteria for testing at the time some of these decisions were made:

" Criteria for testing includes the presence of common COVID-19 symptoms like fever, shortness of breath and dry cough along with international travel or exposure to anyone known to have the virus."

From a paper in "The Lancet":

"In the current study, we found that the detectable SARS-CoV-2 RNA persisted for a median of 20 days in survivors and that it was sustained until death in non-survivors. This has important implications for both patient isolation decision making and guidance around the length of antiviral treatment. In severe influenza virus infection, prolonged viral shedding was associated with fatal outcome and delayed antiviral treatment was an independent risk factor for prolonged virus detection.36
Similarly, effective antiviral treatment might improve outcomes in COVID-19, although we did not observe shortening of viral shedding duration after lopinavir/ritonavir treatment in the current study. Randomised clinical trials for lopinavir/ritonavir (ChiCTR2000029308) and intravenous remdesivir (NCT04257656, NCT04252664) in treatment of COVID-19 are currently in progress."
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30566-3/fulltext#back-bib33

So, 14 days is not long enough. People can still be shedding the virus when they seem to have recovered.

This may explain how, if that's what happened, Covid-19 jumped from Bavaria to Northern Italy, and NO, I DON'T BLAME GERMANY.
 
^^^ It is not about "true data", it is about different strains of the virus some of which are more contagious and/or more deadly than others. Chinese scientists have already discovered two major strains (ancestral "S type" and the new "L type" mutation) just within China. And there might be other new strains elsewhere.

There's controversy around those papers. More generally, however, viruses mutate all the time. Some of them mutate themselves out of existence, because many of the mutations are just "errors" during replication. Let's hope that's what will happen with Covid-19 soon.

However, I too have thought perhaps the strain in Italy is both more contagious and more virulent.

Mitigating against that is the fact that all the early typed strains in Lombardia were the same as the prior strain in Munich.

Of course, multiple strains may be circulating, as is the case in Germany.

To that point, a Chinese paper maintains that the less "virulent" strain in China may just be less virulent in the initial presenting symptoms, i.e. less fever, less coughing. That doesn't mean it's less contagious or doesn't cause death. It's just more insidious because it's harder to diagnose.

If people just have very mild symptoms at first they may stay home until it's too late for them to be helped.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/soc...nk-quarantines-coronavirus-mutations-may-make

All of these studies have shown there's a "lag time" before the effects of "lockdowns" are seen. I'm praying that's the case for Italy.
 
Let's apply some reason, shall we?

When refugees of the the "wrong" color were taking trains into France from Italy, the French police were instructed to stop the trains at the border. Hungary did the same. Germany, and Belgium, could have done the same, but then they would have exposed themselves to censure not only from abroad but from their own citizens, the ones still capable of rational thought, of course.

United States citizens who are in Europe are allowed to come home to get away from the virus even though all other human travel from Europe is banned. Christ, we sent planes to get our citizens out of Wuhan. Anything else would be monstrous and an abdication of our responsibility to them. Of course, it's on us to check them and quarantine them on arrival. That shouldn't even need to be pointed out.

Are we to believe the oh, so efficient, countries of Germany and Belgium and the Netherlands, for example, were too incompetent to do this? England is doing it for their British citizens, what about the rest? Or, were people put on self-quarantine and some broke it?

My, my what has happened to the communal spirit in these countries? Their countrymen don't want them to come home, and if they do come home are so lacking in foresight that they didn't put them in quarantine? That's someone else's fault? Or, have they suddenly lost their vaunted ability to follow orders, no matter what they're like?

I guess some people are also not keeping up with the latest scientific reports: in Germany, for example, only some of the cases, mostly in Baden-Wurttemberg are of the same strain as showed up in Lombardia originally, which, of course, were first seen in Munich.

If people are going to opine, just not to embarass themselves, surely they should do their research.

Honestly, if I hear again how much more rational men are than women I may "barf" as we say. Or maybe racism and/or abject fear removes the ability to think rationally in some people.

On to rational commentary, based on papers, not prejudice.

Hear hear for the rational approach!

That's exactly the point. In large parts of Europe play 'health institutes' an important part in the approach to corona. In the Dutch case this is the RIVM, https://www.rivm.nl/en But other countries like Belgium, Germany and the Scandics will know such like institutes I guess. This is expertise based. These institutes are authoritative.

This doesn't not mean that what they say is automatically policy, but they can't simply be ignored. And their voice plays an important part in the government.

The approach is an important matter in the discussion in the parliament (until late yesterday evening/night) and that is mostly a sincere discussion, every time is the discussion what is appropriate. We don't want a total lock down. Otherwise necessarily measures have to be done. A school ban, good or not? In Belgium they already did. In the Netherlands is still the opinion no people and especially people working in the care must not stay @home to care for the children they must be available for the crisis. But day to day the situation will be monitored....and extra measures will be done when appropriate and necessary. The national unity about this matter is big: all hands on deck!

But the essential thing is that the prime minister (like most of them in Europe) knows his limits (in knowledge and power)! In our case he doesn't think he is a virus expert. So in our case the 'abdomen' (underbelly) doesn't rule in politics.....so the discours is not about 'foreign viruses' but about measures that wil or will not have effect. With every time the balance between an ongoing society/economy and health/security. Rationality rules. In the case of a virus outbreak this makes the crucial difference IMO but time will tell....
 
Why am I not surprised by how China is framing this...
"China steps up in assisting Italy after the country reportedly didn't get help from the EU to battle COVID-19."
https://newsus.cgtn.com/news/2020-0...p-Italy-battle-COVID-19-OOuv42jQnm/index.html
Of course, for China it's great public relations. Not that I care. I was in tears most of yesterday. My poor Italy. I'm grateful for help from wherever it comes. Let China have its public relations coup.
I also don't doubt that Italy was told it was on its own. So much for EU solidarity and concerted and common effort against this.
Hopefully this will change the mind of any Italians who still wanted to be part of the European union.
Xinhua Agency - A chartered flight carrying a nine-member Chinese assistance team, along with tons of medical supplies, arrived at Rome's Fiumicino Airport on Thursday night, part of China's efforts to help Italy stem the outbreak of the new coronavirus.
The large Airbus A-350 aircraft from China Eastern landed at around 10:30 pm local time in the airport's cargo area and was met by a crowd of local Italian Red Cross experts, officials from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Italy and Chinese Embassy in the country.
The team was organized by the National Health Commission and the China Red Cross Society. It is the third team of experts sent abroad by Chinese authorities, after previous teams sent to Iran and Iraq.
The group of experts left Shanghai on Thursday morning and all staff and crew members underwent health checks before boarding the plane, according to the Shanghai Municipal Health Commission.
They took over 700 equipment and goods, including respirators, monitors and defibrillators. "We bring here 30 sets of ICU equipment," said one of the team members with a mask to the press after leaving the plane.
Cargo packages wrapped with waterproof material were unloaded from the plane. The equipment was selected according to the requirements of the Italian side and proved to be useful during clinical practices in China, according to the Ruijin Hospital of Shanghai Jiaotong University School of Medicine, which prepared the materials. Italian Foreign Minister Luigi Di Maio expressed his gratitude on Facebook. "Tonight Italy is not alone. Many people in the world are supporting us," he said, as his computer showed the live broadcast of the scene at the airport.
"Another lesson comes from China, during the days when Italy faces great difficulties: solidarity, with messages, aid, medical and medical equipment," wrote Beppe Grillo, former leader of the Five Star Movement, in his blog on Thursday night -market.
"As the saying goes: a friend's love is forever, he was born to be a friend even in misfortune," he added. Francesco Rocca, president of the Italian Red Cross, thanked the Chinese experts who, after their hard work on the front lines for more than a month, chose to move on to Italy to offer help.
"Tonight, we had the umpteenth test thanks to the Chinese Red Cross, which arrived with a team of experts and help materials," published its organization on twitter.
Chinese ambassador Li Junhua noted that the country's support is an example that indicates the vision of a community with a shared future for humanity. "Team members are heroes in danger," said Li.
Chinese specialists and equipment arrived two days after the number of confirmed cases of COVID-19 in Italy exceeded 10,000.
As the country hardest hit by the COVID-19 pandemic in Europe, Italy has strengthened its measures to contain the spread of the coronavirus, and the entire country has been in quarantine for three days.
"Many Italian doctors and medical specialists want to come and show gratitude to their Chinese colleagues, but not everyone can leave the city at this special time," said an Italian Red Cross source.
 
I'm also amazed by the arrogance of thinking I've seen in some people on the internet that because one is on the "right" side of 60, this isn't important. There are 20 and 30 year olds in ICU with this. I wonder if people with this attitude would change their minds if they wind up in an ICU? And no, this isn't just like the flu.

I have a feeling that this comment could be directed at my post #196 above, where I said:

Maciamo said:
I doubt that Covid-19 has a higher mortality than seasonal influenza, at least in people under 60.

Most people who tested positive in countries like Germany, Austria, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Norway were tested only because they were returning from skiing holidays in northern Italy, not because they were sick. That's why mortality rates in these countries are extremely low. At the time of writing these 7 countries had 3067 reported cases, but only 6 deaths (in Germany and the Netherlands). That's only a 0.19% mortality rate. The two dead in Germany were 78 and 89 years old. In the Netherlands, one was 82 years old and another one 86 years old (don't know the two others). Young people healthy enough to go skiing don't normally die from Coronavirus, and most don't even get really sick.

The number of deaths in Italy is unusually high, but Corriere della Sera reported (based on ISS data) that the average age of the deceased people was 81 years old (79.9 for men and 83.4 for women, but 3/4 of deaths were men).

To be clear, I did not mean that I don't care about people above 60, like my parents and my grandmother, because I do and have been very concerned for them (and others).

When I am in analytical mode, I turn off the emotional part of my brain to try to see facts and statistics in the most detached way possible, and I may not always phrase my ideas in the most tactful way.

What I meant to say is that the mortality rate of coronavirus is very surely exaggerated at present based on the cases from countries like China, Iran and Italy, which saw the highest numbers of reported cases so far.

The WHO stated that "globally, about 3.4% of reported Covid-19 cases have died". But scientists now think that the real mortality rate is closer to 0.9%. It's still more than the flu, but it's already 4 times lower than the authorities thought last week.

But every country has different rules about testing. I called my doctor because I have had mild flu-like symptoms for 5 days and I was shocked to learn that the current policy in Belgium is that only people with severe symptoms like pneumonia or respiratory insufficiency could be tested for coronavirus (and only a few hospitals do the test). My doctor told me not to bother because even serious cases don't necessarily get tested by hospitals! It goes without saying that with such strict criteria over 90% of carriers won't know it as they can't get tested, which in turn completely skews the statistics and make it look like the mortality rate is far higher than it really is.

At present South Korea is the country that conducted the most extensive testing per capita : 5x more people per capita have been tested than in Italy, 10x more than in the UK or the Netherlands, and 750x more than in the USA.

5e66b72584159f21ad7f0617


What's more, the epidemic in South Korea started on 20th January (much earlier than Europe) and has been relatively well contained over the past week. So what is the mortality rate in South Korea? As of today, over 180,000 South Koreans have been tested, of which 7979 were positive for Covid-19 and 67 died. That's a mortality rate of 0.8%, close to the new official estimates of 0.9%. That's still 8 or 9x more than the seasonal flu, but not nearly as bad as the 3.4% originally announced.

The Chinese province of Guangdong has the second best testing per capita. They identified 1356 cases, among which 8 died. That's a case fatality rate of 0.59% - even lower than South Korea.

Italy now has 15,113 cases and 1016 deaths. That's a massive 6.6% mortality rate. I think that the reason for that is that too many people with mild symptoms haven't been tested. If we take the 0.8% of South Korea as being closer to the actual mortality rate, then we could extrapolate that approximately 125,000 Italians have been contaminated to date (not 15,000 as official data shows).

So going back to my assertion that "Covid-19 may not have a higher mortality than seasonal influenza, at least in people under 60". The chart below shows the mortality rate by age group based only on the confirmed cases in China. But China tested only a fraction of its huge population, which is what caused the WHO to originally report a mortality rate of 3.4%. So all percentages in the chart should be divided by 4 to get a more reasonable estimate.

425px-Illustration_of_SARS-COV-2_Case_Fatality_Rate_200228_01-1.png


In other words, the real mortality rate would be:

- 0% under 10 years old
- 0.05% from 10 to 39 years old
- 0.1% from 40 to 49
years old
- 0.3% from 50 to 59 years old
- 0.9% from 60 to 69 years old
- 2% from 70 to 79 years old
- 3.7% from 80 years old

The seasonal flu's case fatality rate is 0.1%, so my initial doubt was correct to say that Coronavirus was less deadly than the flu for people under 50 at least (not 60 as I wrote). It still represent considerable danger for the elderly population (over 70) and it should in no way be underestimated.
 
Here it is explained what is going to happen in Spain in 3 weeks. The government is practically talking only about economic measures, but many hotels in Madrid have already offered themselves as provisional hospitals in case beds are needed in the coming weeks and for as long as necessary.


We will die fighting


I give you the clearest and most concrete information that I have been able to contrast with the Coronavirus and what we are going to experience in the coming months. Why is COVID-19 extremely dangerous? What determines the danger of an infectious agent is the combination of 3 factors: the vector of contagion, morbidity and mortality. COVID-19 has a contagion vector between 1.5 and 2.5, that is, 3 times higher than influenza. Which implies that its spread is geometric: 1-2-4-8-16-32-64-128-256 ... but worst of all, unlike influenza and SARS, it was the last 2003 coronavirus epidemic, this is also spread during the two weeks of incubation, before even having symptoms. As for the morbi-mortality, it is as follows. One thing must be clear: WE ARE ALL GOING TO BE INFECTED BY COVID-19 in the next three months. Now, of every 1000 people, 900 will pass it asymptomatically, including children and young people. 100 will show symptoms. Of those 100, 80 will go through it like a very ******-up flu: dry cough, headache and muscle, that is, two or three weeks at home worse than a dog. Of the remaining 20, 15 will develop bilateral pneumonia with difficulty breathing, which will require hospital admission to administer bronchodilators, corticosteroids, and oxygen. The remaining 5 will develop pulmonary fibrosis that will require immediate admission to the ICU with assisted breathing. Of those 5, 3 will die. And the two that are saved will present sequels that will possibly force a lung transplant. These are the figures that are currently handled in the western scientific community, since the data in China has been worse, but because its health is not so prepared. Seen like that it doesn't seem that serious, does it? The problem is that, unlike the flu, to which a part of the population is vaccinated and also attacks progressively throughout 5 months of the year, this infection is a wave (See Italy) So that in two-three months all infections will occur. So we already have the data to do the math. Of the 40 million Spaniards, only 4 million will have symptoms. Of which 3,200,000 will have a bad flu at home. 600,000 will need hospital admission with oxygen.
And 200,000 will need ICU. The problem is that in Spain there are only 200,000 hospital beds and 3,800 ICU beds between the public and private health systems. Do you see the problem? The real problem is not the disease itself, despite the fact that it has a significant morbidity and mortality, but, due to its epidemiological characteristics, it comes in a wave infecting a whole population that has no previous immunity in a matter of 2-3 months, COLLAPSING THE SANITARY SYSTEM ... !!!! This means that when hospital beds and ICUs are full, it will be necessary to apply what is known as War Medicine, that is, when for each bed that is free there are 7 people waiting, the professionals will have to decide who they already attend who are sent home saying that they will send them a doctor and an oxygen cylinder, which will never come because they will also be finished. That decision will be made based on age and general condition. That is, the youngest will be chosen, who will have a better chance of survival. This without counting the rest of serious and urgent pathologies: heart attacks, strokes, traffic accidents, etc. all this without beds and without ICU. This looks like a science fiction movie, but this is happening RIGHT NOW in northern Italy. Country that two weeks ago was like us now, let us not forget. Healthcare in Madrid has already collapsed. They are telling the population that if they have symptoms, do not go to hospitals or health centers or call 112, but rather call 900 102 112. There are people who have been calling all morning and cannot get their phone picked up . It is expected that, at the rate it is spreading, Spanish Health will collapse in early April. This is the situation. What to do then? Let's see, this is a lottery, it is difficult for you to touch, but the more tickets you buy, the more possibilities you have. Therefore, what you have to do is NOT BUY BALLOTS.
In other words, for the next few weeks, go out exclusively to work and buy from the supermarket when necessary. Do not eat outside, do not go to any gathering of people, do not use public transport. It will only be a few weeks. You may be wondering: if we are all going to take it, why isolate ourselves so much? As you will see, whether a person suffers the disease asymptomatically, such as the flu or needs hospital admission, depends fundamentally on the age and immune status of the patient. But also of a concept called "viral load", that is, the number of millions of viruses that have entered our body at the time of infection. The higher that viral load, the more damage the virus can do to our lungs as our defenses organize and make the antibodies to defend themselves. Obviously it is not the same to kiss an infected person, directly breathe pflügge droplets from an infected person or touch an object where those droplets have fallen 3 hours ago and then touch our faces. Then we will try that, when we get infected, the viral load is as low as possible. That is why it is recommended not to attend meetings of people or public places. Elena daughter, I know you're reading me. I don't want you to be overly alarmed. In your case, your youth means that, most likely, you pass it asymptomatically, but remember about the "viral load": try to avoid public transport, meetings, meals outside, etc. for the next few weeks. I feel the beating that I have given you, I hope I am wrong and that things are contained from now on that mitigation and social isolation measures are being implemented, but I have already remained calm because I have told you the truth of the situation that I have not It is said in no media, only in specialized forums.
 
I am totally with Angela. Stop underestimating the effect of this coronavirus. It will totally overwhelm our hospital system in the US. Not to mention funeral homes. In Iran they are digging funeral trenches to bury all the dead. Already California has declared a state of emergency which will allow them to take over hotels to serve as makeshift hospitals. People are talking as if 1% mortality rate is a win. In a country of 330,000 million it translates to 3.3 million people. That's a lot of grandfathers and grandmothers and fathers and mothers of people. It is no longer a statistic when it touches your family. Beside the economic impact there is a statistic out of Hong Kong that hospitalized survivors sustained 20-30% reduced lung capacity. There will a lot of people that will have compromised health for the rest of their lives and might not be able to withstand the next regular seasonal flu.
 

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