Ancient balkan states Y-DNA

Excine said:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/v...q&ll=41.12853604950917,22.412049449999998&z=5

Consider the list of reported ancient samples; it is clear that R1a/I2a-Slavic were not present in even trace amounts in the ancient Balkans. Before 300-200 BCE, I2a-Y3120 did not even exist. The I2a that existed in the pre-Bronze Age Balkans is mostly I-M223 and bears no resemblance to present South Slavs; they belong to entirely distinct branches of I2a. It is still present in very small numbers in the Balkans and is extremely rare among Slavs. I-M223 concentrations are highest in Albanians (2.5-3 percent). I-M223 has been discovered in Neolithic samples, but no IA samples have been discovered to date.

Haplogroups should not be classified according to haplotype. "R1a" is a haplotype that dates back thousands of years. Even Romani R1a is descended from Indo-Iranian migrations. Clearly, they cannot be classified with Slavic R1a. Distinct haplogroups have distinct histories. Contrary to popular belief, they are not interchangeable.

The term "J2" refers to a haplotype. J2b is distinct from J2a, and within J2b, J-L283 is distinct from J-M205. Within J2a, there is Neolithic J2a from Neolithic Croatia that is still found among Albanians today and Balkan J2a brought by Syriac Romans. They cannot simply be grouped together as "J2". They are quite dissimilar to one another.

Anyone familiar with the J-L283 phylogeny realizes that Albanian J-L283 and most likely Iapodean J-L283 are "brother" branches of J-L283, which is precisely what we might anticipate of J-L283 among Illyrians, unless one believes that Illyrians were a single little subclade of J-L283. Albanians have a high level of variation in J-L283, making it inevitable that J-L283 samples obtained in the Balkans will correspond to their subclades. Likewise, this is true for E-V13. It will be quite difficult to locate E-V13 in the ancient Balkans that is distinct from the Albanian clades.
Clearly, the thread is flawed, with figures that make no sense. According to what we know, the five major haplogroups of the ancient Balkans are as follows (in alphabetical order): E-V13, G-P15, J-L283, J-M410, and R-M269.
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I do not see any J-L283 in Montenegro or Albania



I see it in Italy and Hungaria as well as croatia , Slovenia
 
Consider the list of reported ancient samples; it is clear that R1a/I2a-Slavic were not present in even trace amounts in the ancient Balkans. Before 300-200 BCE, I2a-Y3120 did not even exist. The I2a that existed in the pre-Bronze Age Balkans is mostly I-M223 and bears no resemblance to present South Slavs; they belong to entirely distinct branches of I2a. It is still present in very small numbers in the Balkans and is extremely rare among Slavs. I-M223 concentrations are highest in Albanians (2.5-3 percent). I-M223 has been discovered in Neolithic samples, but no IA samples have been discovered to date.
Haplogroups should not be classified according to haplotype. "R1a" is a haplotype that dates back thousands of years. Even Romani R1a is descended from Indo-Iranian migrations. Clearly, they cannot be classified with Slavic R1a. Distinct haplogroups have distinct histories. Contrary to popular belief, they are not interchangeable.
The term "J2" refers to a haplotype. J2b is distinct from J2a, and within J2b, J-L283 is distinct from J-M205. Within J2a, there is Neolithic J2a from Neolithic Croatia that is still found among Albanians today and Balkan J2a brought by Syriac Romans. They cannot simply be grouped together as "J2". They are quite dissimilar to one another.
Anyone familiar with the J-L283 phylogeny realizes that Albanian J-L283 and most likely Iapodean J-L283 are "brother" branches of J-L283, which is precisely what we might anticipate of J-L283 among Illyrians, unless one believes that Illyrians were a single little subclade of J-L283. Albanians have a high level of variation in J-L283, making it inevitable that J-L283 samples obtained in the Balkans will correspond to their subclades. Likewise, this is true for E-V13. It will be quite difficult to locate E-V13 in the ancient Balkans that is distinct from the Albanian clades.
Clearly, the thread is flawed, with figures that make no sense. According to what we know, the five major haplogroups of the ancient Balkans are as follows (in alphabetical order): E-V13, G-P15, J-L283, J-M410, and R-M269.[/QUOTE]


There are 3 R1a samples in bulgaria before 1500bc:R1a-Z93 x2 and R1a-M459
There are 6 I2 samples in bulgaria before 1600bc: I2-S12195, I2-L702, I2-L621, I2-P215 and I2-Y87044

(The message above the samples is not mine)
 
Kari said:
1) i said THEORY
2)The theory of the haplogroups of the Illyrians is not based on the haplogroups of the Illyrians in 2,500 BC but in 800 BC.
3)What is your theory about the haplogroups of illyrians?
Click to expand...

Illyrians are an IE group of people they show a continuity from Middle Bronze Age Dalmatian Posusje culture (those are J2b-L283) and the Classical Iron Age Illyrians are J2b-L283 heavy.

If you choose to deny scientific papers like Patterson/Reich, Matthieson etc. then that is your problem not anyone else's.
 
Excine said:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/v...q&ll=41.12853604950917,22.412049449999998&z=5

Consider the list of reported ancient samples; it is clear that R1a/I2a-Slavic were not present in even trace amounts in the ancient Balkans. Before 300-200 BCE, I2a-Y3120 did not even exist. The I2a that existed in the pre-Bronze Age Balkans is mostly I-M223 and bears no resemblance to present South Slavs; they belong to entirely distinct branches of I2a. It is still present in very small numbers in the Balkans and is extremely rare among Slavs. I-M223 concentrations are highest in Albanians (2.5-3 percent). I-M223 has been discovered in Neolithic samples, but no IA samples have been discovered to date.

Anyone familiar with the J-L283 phylogeny realizes that Albanian J-L283 and most likely Iapodean J-L283 are "brother" branches of J-L283, which is precisely what we might anticipate of J-L283 among Illyrians, unless one believes that Illyrians were a single little subclade of J-L283. Albanians have a high level of variation in J-L283, making it inevitable that J-L283 samples obtained in the Balkans will correspond to their subclades. Likewise, this is true for E-V13. It will be quite difficult to locate E-V13 in the ancient Balkans that is distinct from the Albanian clades.
Clearly, the thread is flawed, with figures that make no sense. According to what we know, the five major haplogroups of the ancient Balkans are as follows (in alphabetical order): E-V13, G-P15, J-L283, J-M410, and R-M269.
Click to expand...

Non sense. J2b-L283 has nothing to do with Proto-Albanians. Second of all the South Dalmatian Posusje samples are harbingers as to what is to be expected from even more southern regions.

There is no E1b-V13 in BA and most definitely not among Classical Illyrians. This is an Albanian nationalistic obsession of you.
 
mount123 said:
Illyrians are an IE group of people they show a continuity from Middle Bronze Age Dalmatian Posusje culture (those are J2b-L283) and the Classical Iron Age Illyrians are J2b-L283 heavy.
If you choose to deny scientific papers like Patterson/Reich, Matthieson etc. then that is your problem not anyone else's.
Click to expand...

Send me a link of their scientific papers.I want your opinion about the percentage of J2 on the illyrians.I am not in this forum to promote nationalistic ideas
 
Early Pannonian-Illyrians were mainly J-L283 and R1b (esp. R-L2), while early Thracians were primarily E-V13. We know from Kyjatice that they had a J2a carrier, but they might have been very varied, with many Bell Beaker (Western R1b) and other local and Eastern lineages. Many of the groups then dominant and roaming around seem to have collapsed or being annihilated, with the best survival chances for their womenfolk.

Whereever we find Illyrians and have samples from, J-L283 pops up, even in the mixed/influenced groups, like the Unterkrainische group around Novo Mesto, where R1b and J-L283 were side by side. They used the Illyrian burial rite in contrast to Fr?g and others, which were more oriented towards Basarabi/Thracians.

Just recently I read that in the Iron Age there was a huge network from the Upper Danube (Austria) down the Lower Danube, from about Southern Poland to Albania, from Czechia to Ukraine, in which brides being exchanged. You see it in their grave goods: Illyrian brides in the Carpathians, Carpathian brides in Albania and Austria etc. So especially the elite seems to have been interconnected and experience constant, even if lower level gene flow. How low level is another matter, because if it would be that low, this phenomenon wouldn't be that widespread and easy to spot. There really was in the early Hallstatt period some kind of Koine from the Danubian-Carpathian-Balkan world.
That's interesting to note for debates on the autosomals of some individuals.
 
mount123 said:
Non sense. J2b-L283 has nothing to do with Proto-Albanians. Second of all the South Dalmatian Posusje samples are harbingers as to what is to be expected from even more southern regions.

There is no E1b-V13 in BA and most definitely not among Classical Illyrians. This is an Albanian nationalistic obsession of you.
Click to expand...

Apologies "Neo-Illyrian". I forgot that you are not an Albanian, but a man living in a fantasy world.
 
Riverman said:
Early Pannonian-Illyrians were mainly J-L283 and R1b (esp. R-L2), while early Thracians were primarily E-V13. We know from Kyjatice that they had a J2a carrier, but they might have been very varied, with many Bell Beaker (Western R1b) and other local and Eastern lineages. Many of the groups then dominant and roaming around seem to have collapsed or being annihilated, with the best survival chances for their womenfolk.

Whereever we find Illyrians and have samples from, J-L283 pops up, even in the mixed/influenced groups, like the Unterkrainische group around Novo Mesto, where R1b and J-L283 were side by side. They used the Illyrian burial rite in contrast to Fr�g and others, which were more oriented towards Basarabi/Thracians.

Just recently I read that in the Iron Age there was a huge network from the Upper Danube (Austria) down the Lower Danube, from about Southern Poland to Albania, from Czechia to Ukraine, in which brides being exchanged. You see it in their grave goods: Illyrian brides in the Carpathians, Carpathian brides in Albania and Austria etc. So especially the elite seems to have been interconnected and experience constant, even if lower level gene flow. How low level is another matter, because if it would be that low, this phenomenon wouldn't be that widespread and easy to spot. There really was in the early Hallstatt period some kind of Koine from the Danubian-Carpathian-Balkan world.
That's interesting to note for debates on the autosomals of some individuals.
Click to expand...

As always, thanks for pointing out the obvious. I am glad that there are actual knowledgable people on these fora like you.

There were Scythianised Thracian E1b-V13 and other Scythian samples with Illyrian mtDNA which is interesting. They were mtDNA I1a1 if I remember correctly which was present in MBA Dalmatian Posusje culture also some mtDNA HV0e I think which was also present among classical Illyrians.
 
Excine said:
Apologies "Neo-Illyrian". I forgot that you are not an Albanian, but a man living in a fantasy world.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the compliment tallava dancing fanatasy wannabe Illyrian descended person.
 
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mount123 said:
Thanks for the compliment tallava dancing fanatasy wannabe Illyrian descended magjup.
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No problem, it's always great knowing that the more you comment, the more insane you present yourself. :LOL:
 
Kari said:
This is my theory
Ancient Greece- J2 (34,5%), E-V13 (29%), R1b (15%), G2a (8%), T (6%), I2 (4%), R1a (2%), J1 (1,5%)
Cycladic Civilization- J2 (36%), I2 (22%), G2a (18%), T (13%), E-V13 (11%)
Minoan Civilization- J2 (36%), I2 (20%), G2a (16%), J1 (14%), T (11%), R1b (2%), E1b1b (1%)
Mycenaean Civilization- J2 (35%), I2 (18%), E-V13 (17%), G2a (12%), J1 (10%), R1b (7%), T (5%), R1a (3%)
Ancient Thrace- R1a (25,5%), I2 (21%), E-V13 (15%), R1b (12%),G2a (11%), J2 (8,5%), T (4%), J1 (3%)
Illyria- I2 (26%), R1a (23%), E-V13 (16%), G2a (12,5%), J2 (12%), R1b (5%), T (4%), J1 (1,5%)
Click to expand...

Why do you assume that. By the way, so few R1b in Ancient Greece, it's a civilization very close to the rest of Europe.
 
DuPidh once now Kari. Passive-agressive trolling. :LOL:
 
Hawk said:
DuPidh once now Kari. Passive-agressive trolling. :LOL:
Click to expand...
me trolling? are we here to discuss about the topic or say random things?
 
@torzio
How could there be any J-L283 in Montenegro or Albania if no samples from those countries exist?


@Riverman
There is no Illyrian R-L2 and, of course, no study of Thrace, Illyria, or Dacia, but let us wait and see what the new papers reveal.

@Kari All Balkan I2a which has been found predates steppe migrations and had faded out already in the Neolithic era. It's not even related to any Slavic branch and it has left very few descendants today.

You cannot say 2) "The theory of the haplogroups of the Illyrians is not based on the haplogroups of the Illyrians in 2,500 BC but in 800 BC."
and then, when presented with the absence of I2a-Slavic and R1a, ask, "what about I-S12195?"
https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna/samples.php?searchcolumn=Object_ID&searchfor=I2165&ybp=500000,0

I-S1295 was found in 2900 BCE Bulgaria and is virtually non-existent today. It is however found in one Albanian and one Greek in the Balkans who belong to different branches which diverged in the Neolithic era. https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y5670/
J-L283 phylogeny is such that Albanians have a very high J-L283 diversity. This is a chronological statement. It means that J-L283 carriers were part of an ancestral Albanian population at an era before the big geographical branching of J-L283. It means that J-L283 in Albanians can't be post-LBA/EIA (at the minimum), otherwise it would be limited to few branches, but it's not. Albanians are present in most major branches of J-L283, just as they are present in most major branches of E-V13.

The E-V13 whom mount123 is calling "Scythianised Thracian" would look like this today:


Target: SCY197(E-V13)
Distance: 2.9813% / 0.02981282 | R4P
43.6 Italian_Lombardy
39.8 Albanian
10.8 Italian_Liguria
5.8 Greek_Dodecanese

Target: SCY197(E-V13)
Distance: 2.8830% / 0.02882955 | R3P
52.6 Albanian
35.0 Italian_Liguria
12.4 Sardinian

Target: SCY197(E-V13)
Distance: 2.6999% / 0.02699948
30.4 Albanian
20.8 Italian_Liguria
17.6 Italian_Lombardy
14.6 Sardinian
13.0 Rumelia_East
1.2 Greek_Trabzon
1.2 Nganassan
0.6 Greek_Cappadocia
0.2 Evenk
0.2 Ket
0.2 Mbuti

I can't believe that anyone believes that this what a "Scythianized Thracian" would look like today.

However, if you believe that he is "Scythianized Thracian" then so is the J-L283 from MBA Croatia:

Target: HRV_MBA:I4331 (J-L283)
Distance: 2.2611% / 0.02261091 | R3P
48.2 Italian_Aosta_Valley
37.6 Albanian
14.2 Sardinian

It's pretty obvious that Albanians have a core relation with both E-V13 and J-L283.
 
I2-S12195, I2-L702, I2-L621, I2-P215 and I2-Y87044 I2 samples found in bulgaria before 1600bc
 
Kari, could you please re-read my reply?
 
Excine said:
@torzio
How could there be any J-L283 in Montenegro or Albania if no samples from those countries exist?



It's pretty obvious that Albanians have a core relation with both E-V13 and J-L283.
Click to expand...


Thats correct ....there are zero ancient J-L283 in Albania and Montenegro because the illyrians came from the north originally.....modern slovenia, croatia , eastern Austria ( we even have the Port of Vienna as Illyrian via Archeological studies ...not talking about the city of Vienna established by celts 500 years after ).................the ones in Foggia Italy are the Daunians who arrived there from modern southern slovenia in 1000BC


E-V13 is clearly a dardanian marker ( modern Kosovo ) and only went into coastal albania after Thracian invasion of their lands.............my guess is ancient Paeonian are also E-V13 and are related to the Dardanians
 
So balkan I2 is rare.You probably want to say to me that I2 wasnt high on Thracians,Illyrians
 
Kari said:
So balkan I2 is rare.You probably want to say to me that I2 wasnt high on Thracians,Illyrians
Click to expand...


rare is western Balkans ..............but was found in ancient thracians in the eastern balkans


ancient G2a is found in ancient croatia as per the august 2021 croatian paper

G2a also found in neolithic Bulgaria along with T1a and H2
 
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