Where did the Anatolian branch of Indo-European originate?

So basically another proof that steppe cultural "ethnogenesis" was nurtured by farmers from CT.....as I always predicted....now that we have also the genetic input of farmers into Yamnaya itself.....Manzura's smile.

Etrusco, have you new studies concerning Yamnaya DNA making and the weight of EEF or ANF in it? I thought Yamna people had concerning southern elements a rather CHGlike element, where we could have to distinguish between old CHG and CHGlike Iranian farmers elements? That said, CTC had surely some input into Sredny Stog and later Steppes cultures (their cattle too) but the Steppes metallurgy seems owing to South Caucasus.
 
Etrusco, have you new studies concerning Yamnaya DNA making and the weight of EEF or ANF in it? I thought Yamna people had concerning southern elements a rather CHGlike element, where we could have to distinguish between old CHG and CHGlike Iranian farmers elements? That said, CTC had surely some input into Sredny Stog and later Steppes cultures (their cattle too) but the Steppes metallurgy seems owing to South Caucasus.


More or less ( so far) the EE+WHG component in Yamnaya is 15%. The rest is EHG + CHG like component but I wonder if the latter at the end will turn out to EEF+WHG too. We'll see what happens!
 
More or less ( so far) the EE+WHG component in Yamnaya is 15%. The rest is EHG + CHG like component but I wonder if the latter at the end will turn out to EEF+WHG too. We'll see what happens!

How could someone mistake CHG for a combination of EEF and WHG?

CHG is very different from EEF, even with some WHG added. The similarity of CHG is with Iran Neo, not EEF.

Plus, it is steppe people from the eastern part of the steppe who have 40-50% CHG. I see nothing in the archaeology of the movement of the farmers from Europe onto the steppe which would account for such huge percentages that far east.

The fact that there was some genetic intrusion of EEF onto the steppe, which we can document, and certainly some cultural impact from "Old Europe" onto the steppe doesn't mean that's the only source. Culturally, for example, bronze metallurgy came from south of the Caucasus, as did other cultural innovations.

One of the admirable things about the steppe people is that they were able to assimilate technology and other cultural influences from many areas.
 
How could someone mistake CHG for a combination of EEF and WHG?


The fact that there was some genetic intrusion of EEF onto the steppe, which we can document, and certainly some cultural impact from "Old Europe" onto the steppe doesn't mean that's the only source. Culturally, for example, bronze metallurgy came from south of the Caucasus, as did other cultural innovations.

One of the admirable things about the steppe people is that they were able to assimilate technology and other cultural influences from many areas.


yes it should be obvious that EEF and CHG are very different but since I always red on blog from experts that Steppe Yamnaya was a combination of 60% EHG and 40% CHG then why they confused EEF with CHG....hence my question about the chance of it being an even bigger mistake. As for metallurgical stuff I think that the main influence is from the Carpath-balkan metallurgical complex.
 
The fact that there was some genetic intrusion of EEF onto the steppe, which we can document, and certainly some cultural impact from "Old Europe" onto the steppe doesn't mean that's the only source. Culturally, for example, bronze metallurgy came from south of the Caucasus, as did other cultural innovations.

But elite languages can replace indigenous languages, so speaking about this "some" EEF "recently discovered" contribution is creating even more mess about the IE urheimat. Even more, as more kurgans I see the more I figure out that it would be the product of megalithic people in a region without big rocks. But well, I'm not with Sir Renfrew.
 
But elite languages can replace indigenous languages, so speaking about this "some" EEF "recently discovered" contribution is creating even more mess about the IE urheimat. Even more, as more kurgans I see the more I figure out that it would be the product of megalithic people in a region without big rocks. But well, I'm not with Sir Renfrew.

I could have written your post myself....I agree 100% above all in the fact that kurgan are a distant imitation of atalantic ( spain portugal, france) megalithism. In this culture we can find the raising of the WHG signal among the EEF post-cardial farmers that matches exactly the western input into Yamanaya ( in sredni stog the EEF +WHG is even higher).....the tide is turning?
 
yes it should be obvious that EEF and CHG are very different but since I always red on blog from experts that Steppe Yamnaya was a combination of 60% EHG and 40% CHG then why they confused EEF with CHG....hence my question about the chance of it being an even bigger mistake. As for metallurgical stuff I think that the main influence is from the Carpath-balkan metallurgical complex.

I said "bronze" metallurgy, not copper.
 
I could have written your post myself....I agree 100% above all in the fact that kurgan are a distant imitation of atalantic ( spain portugal, france) megalithism. In this culture we can find the raising of the WHG signal among the EEF post-cardial farmers that matches exactly the western input into Yamanaya ( in sredni stog the EEF +WHG is even higher).....the tide is turning?

If Megalithism is associated with a "comeback" increase of WHG into EEF (EEF = ANF + more or less WHG), and it is supposed now to be associated with Indo-Europeanization of the steppes, then is it really demonstrable that there was a significant WHG-rich EEF (not just any EEF signal, but one showing that sudden increase of WHG in some Late Neolithic populatons) into the steppes before the Bronze Age (because it's increasingly clear that PIE is not as late as Yamnaya)? I really don't know, that's why I'm asking it. AFAIK the EEF signal found until now in the earlier steppe samples is very minor (except a few western Sredny Stog very near to Cucuteni-Tripolye) and, more importantly, not particularly high in WHG...
 
If Megalithism is associated with a "comeback" increase of WHG into EEF (EEF = ANF + more or less WHG), and it is supposed now to be associated with Indo-Europeanization of the steppes, then is it really demonstrable that there was a significant WHG-rich EEF (not just any EEF signal, but one showing that sudden increase of WHG in some Late Neolithic populatons) into the steppes before the Bronze Age (because it's increasingly clear that PIE is not as late as Yamnaya)? I really don't know, that's why I'm asking it. AFAIK the EEF signal found until now in the earlier steppe samples is very minor (except a few western Sredny Stog very near to Cucuteni-Tripolye) and, more importantly, not particularly high in WHG...

The mixing of EEF+WHG is the genetic component from the west that is precisely found in Yamnaya....but that means that also EEF itself could be PIE.... EEF +WHG just the genetic component that IEize the steppe.
 
If Megalithism is associated with a "comeback" increase of WHG into EEF (EEF = ANF + more or less WHG), and it is supposed now to be associated with Indo-Europeanization of the steppes, then is it really demonstrable that there was a significant WHG-rich EEF (not just any EEF signal, but one showing that sudden increase of WHG in some Late Neolithic populatons) into the steppes before the Bronze Age (because it's increasingly clear that PIE is not as late as Yamnaya)? I really don't know, that's why I'm asking it. AFAIK the EEF signal found until now in the earlier steppe samples is very minor (except a few western Sredny Stog very near to Cucuteni-Tripolye) and, more importantly, not particularly high in WHG...

That's exactly correct.
 
It's a general statement not linked to this only thread but yes, I spoke about South Caucasus and my aim was to say that a current pop which presents haplo's stayed under old forms is not by force and everytime the source pop of other pops presenting derived haplo's, and as a whole presenting far more numerous downstream haplo's than the supposed source pop.
harmonious chain of downstream SNP's among modern pops (when ancient DNA lacks of course) is a better basis to determine the track(s) taken by the source pop in its expansion(s). Same problem with L51 in Southwest Europe and the dychotomy between Southern and Northern Italy SNP's for Y-R1b. I consider the bulk of the down-L23 (-> L51) in Europe took the Central and Northern Europe routes, when only a less numerous group took a Southern (coastal?) route.
Of course, ancient DNA will resolve the question and maybe falsify my thoughts...
Concerning the present thread, I consider we need more data, and sure data in ancient Anatolia.

Well i guess you are pretty much right. The best exemple is R1b-V88, all ancient R1b-V88 founds are from Europe and if some like the Spanish one sounds very neolithic like, most of theme are in an eastern / south eastern european HG or HG / Farming transition context. But how many R1b-V88 in modern eastern and south eastern europe ? We cannot take modern distribution of basal forms of an haplogroup like a " oh so R1b* is found in modern Iran, so R1b came from Iran ". Obviously the lack of SNP's in ancient samples, especially in the paleolithic like those BT* CT* wich likely just are C1a2 doesn't tell us a lot, but using modern SNP's for explaining ancient migrations patterns doesn't tell us a lot neither.
 
The mixing of EEF+WHG is the genetic component from the west that is precisely found in Yamnaya....but that means that also EEF itself could be PIE.... EEF +WHG just the genetic component that IEize the steppe.
No. IE show link with Uralic languages, and imputative influences from Caucausian languages. The EEF in Yamnaya is just via trading or kidnapped women from Balkans.
 
But elite languages can replace indigenous languages, so speaking about this "some" EEF "recently discovered" contribution is creating even more mess about the IE urheimat. Even more, as more kurgans I see the more I figure out that it would be the product of megalithic people in a region without big rocks. But well, I'm not with Sir Renfrew.
lol Southeuropean Buthurted.
 
The mixing of EEF+WHG is the genetic component from the west that is precisely found in Yamnaya....but that means that also EEF itself could be PIE.... EEF +WHG just the genetic component that IEize the steppe.

EEF already includes WHG. EEF itself means "a lot of ANF + some WHG". The specific composition varies according to the place and origin. I think it's still way too early (and insufficient data) to associate IE with the WHG-enriched EEF of Megalithic cultures of Atlantic Europe thousands of kilometers away from the steppe. EEF (ANF+WHG) is already pretty minor in most of the Pontic-Caspian samples (including its eastern part, Khvalynsk/Yamnaya), but the frequency of WHG is even lower, virtually negligible in comparison with CHG and EHG.

I myself doubt there was a high probability of language shift exclusively through the dominance of a tiny elite in uncivilized, tribal and clannish (thus decentralized) societies like those of the Chalcolithic Steppe, especially when you consider that typical EEF Y-DNA haplogroups aren't found there in even moderate frequency (what, a tiny but powerful elite whose males failed to leave many descendants? How likely is that?).

Yes, EEF "could be IE", but CHG and EHG "could" too, and in fact (AFAIK) there are many more direct associations between the chronological and geographical spread of CHG and EHG admixtures and the expansion of IE than between EEF and the Indo-Europeanization of societies. Where IE appears, it is mostly CHG and - except from Anatolia until now - EHG that really rise significantly in frequency.
 
lol Southeuropean Buthurted.
You never discuss the issue of the post but you are trying allways to expose my supposed failures, but as ever you even don't understand nothing, you don't know who is Renfrew even. You are trying to trollling me: go and have a life mosca collonera.
 
http://www.academia.edu/35556491/The..._to_Eneolithic

Quote:
We have fixed very important changes in the burial rites of the steppe population. Stretched Neolithic inhumations were replaced by flexed skeletons and some graves with groups of stones above them or burials in stone boxes. I. Manzura was right when he connected those changes with western infuence.The people of new Sredniy Stog culture,which was formed on the basis of the local Neolithic, could contrast new burial rites with old traditions (Manzura 1997). It is possible to assume that those radical changes in the burial rite, which was a part of conservative religious sphere, were connected with changes in cults. The most important innovation was the appearance of the metal working borrowed from the Balkan region. Metal working in the Prehistory was closed connected with the religious sphere of life and adoption of new technology in everyday life had to be accompanied by adoption of new cults. We can observe the consequences as changes in the burial rites. The time of formation of the Sredniy Stog culture was synchronous with the Hamangia culture and exactly its influence caused the transformation of the steppe burial rite, because flexed skeletons and using of stones were typical for this culture (Todorova 2002a, 35–




The transition from the Neolithic to Eneolithic in the Eastern European steppe was connected with the inten-sive contacts of people of the Azov-Dnieper, Low Don, Pricaspiy, Samara, Orlovka and Sredniy Stog cultures with the Balkan population and first with the Hamangia culture. The results of these contacts were some im
- ports: adornments from copper, cornelian, marine shells and pots in the steppe sites and plates from the bone
and nacre, pendants from teeth of red deer in the Hamangia graves. The Hamangia infuence in the burial rites
of the steppe population was very important and caused to use stone in graves and above them, pits with alcove,
new adornments of burial clothes.
The strongest impact we have fixed for the population in northern area of the
Sea of Azov, where the radical changes in the burial rite and the formation of a new Sredniy Stog culture took place. It was connected with the adoption of new religious element.
 
http://www.academia.edu/35556491/The..._to_Eneolithic

Quote:
We have fixed very important changes in the burial rites of the steppe population. Stretched Neolithic inhumations were replaced by flexed skeletons and some graves with groups of stones above them or burials in stone boxes. I. Manzura was right when he connected those changes with western infuence.The people of new Sredniy Stog culture,which was formed on the basis of the local Neolithic, could contrast new burial rites with old traditions (Manzura 1997). It is possible to assume that those radical changes in the burial rite, which was a part of conservative religious sphere, were connected with changes in cults. The most important innovation was the appearance of the metal working borrowed from the Balkan region. Metal working in the Prehistory was closed connected with the religious sphere of life and adoption of new technology in everyday life had to be accompanied by adoption of new cults. We can observe the consequences as changes in the burial rites. The time of formation of the Sredniy Stog culture was synchronous with the Hamangia culture and exactly its influence caused the transformation of the steppe burial rite, because flexed skeletons and using of stones were typical for this culture (Todorova 2002a, 35–




The transition from the Neolithic to Eneolithic in the Eastern European steppe was connected with the inten-sive contacts of people of the Azov-Dnieper, Low Don, Pricaspiy, Samara, Orlovka and Sredniy Stog cultures with the Balkan population and first with the Hamangia culture. The results of these contacts were some im
- ports: adornments from copper, cornelian, marine shells and pots in the steppe sites and plates from the bone
and nacre, pendants from teeth of red deer in the Hamangia graves. The Hamangia infuence in the burial rites
of the steppe population was very important and caused to use stone in graves and above them, pits with alcove,
new adornments of burial clothes.
The strongest impact we have fixed for the population in northern area of the
Sea of Azov, where the radical changes in the burial rite and the formation of a new Sredniy Stog culture took place. It was connected with the adoption of new religious element.

You're aware that a lot of scholars believe Hamangia was settled by people from Anatolia, yes?
 
You're aware that a lot of scholars believe Hamangia was settled by people from Anatolia, yes?

I was not talking about the origin of Hamangia ( anatolian origin? just as likely as an autochthonous one).....just try to remind everybody of the deep cultural influence of Old europe on the steppe cultural ethnogenesis.....every time I posted quoting Manzura on various blogs that was often met with mockery and derision.
By the way you are aware that WHG had a deep impact in Anatolia to form the ANF?
 
I was not talking about the origin of Hamangia ( anatolian origin? just as likely as an autochthonous one).....just try to remind everybody of the deep cultural influence of Old europe on the steppe cultural ethnogenesis.....every time I posted quoting Manzura on various blogs that was often met with mockery and derision.
By the way you are aware that WHG had a deep impact in Anatolia to form the ANF?

I didn't say it was a certainty that Hamangia was very influenced by Anatolia, but there are certainly very good indications of it.

No, WHG didn't have a deep impact in Anatolia. First of all, it wasn't precisely WHG, but an UHG similar to WHG, and second of all, it was a minor part of their ancestry. The technology also spread from Anatolia into Europe, not the other way around.

These things are all well known.

You are, however, making my point for me. You can trace parts of every culture back to other cultures. So what? It is the particulars of each separate case which must be examined as objectively as possible.

You're talking about a very specific time and place.

The archaeology and genetics are clear. Yes, steppe people borrowed a great deal culturally from the cultures around them, both those in "Old Europe" and those from south of the Caucasus.

Yes, there are indications from archaeology of the movement of people from "Old Europe" onto the western steppe. However, we know from genetics that the autosomal impact was small. We also know the yline impact was small.

The question then becomes, how likely is it that such a small movement of people, even if they were an elite group, could effectuate language change. The answer is that it's possible but rather unlikely.

It becomes even more unlikely because the earliest reconstructed Indo-European vocabulary doesn't contain words for agriculture, and the people of Old Europe were totally dependent on it, and their ancestors, in fact, brought it to Europe.

Given all of this, I'm not surprised that your "theory" has not been accepted by other people. Of course, that doesn't excuse any incivility that you were shown.
 

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