The Bell Beaker by Olalde and Reich et al. 2017

A case more, no conspirancy, just a fiasco:

52 Paris Street (Cerdanyola del Vallès, Barcelona, Spain)
53 Contact person: Joan Francès Farré
54 During urban construction work at Paris Street in Cerdanyola del Vallès (Vallès
55 Occidental, Barcelona province) in 2003, a large amount of skeletal material and
56 associated pottery was unearthed. Follow-up excavation uncovered a Chalcolithic
57 hypogeum with more than 9,000 human remains as well as lithic and ceramic material,
58 the latter assigned to the Bell Beaker tradition18
59 The hypogeum displays several occupational phases. The oldest one presented an ash
60 layer underlying the first inhumations that could have a ritualistic significance. Charcoal
61 from that basal layer was dated to 2878-2496 calBCE (4110±60 BP, UBAR-817). The
62 first funerary phase (UE-15) shows a large number of successive inhumations (minimal
63 number of individuals 36) that are still in anatomical position, placed in lateral
64 decubitus and with flexed knees. Seven arrow points were retrieved from this layer. A
65 thin, upper layer (UE-5) probably represents a re-organization of the existing funerary
66 space, prior to the second funerary phase (UE-2). At UE-5, two Bell Beaker vessels of
67 maritime style were retrieved. The UE-2 layer comprises fewer inhumations, and all of
68 them were accompanied by typical Bell Beaker vessels: three in Maritime style, and two
69 in epi-Maritime style. There were also numerous additional pieces of diverse typology.
70 Over this layer, a final one, labelled UE-3, contained two more skeletons arranged over
71 riverbed pebbles with a Bell Beaker vessel of a regional style known as "Pyrenaic". A
72 bone from this layer yielded the youngest date in the hypogeum of 2469-2206 calBCE
73 (3870±45 BP, UBAR-860). We recovered ancient DNA data from 10 individuals:
74 Ÿ I0257/10362A: 2571–2350 calBCE (3965±29 BP, MAMS-25937)
75 Ÿ I0258/10367A: 2850–2250 BCE
76 Ÿ I0260/10370A: 2850–2250 BCE
77 Ÿ I0261/10378A: 2850–2250 BCE
78 Ÿ I0262/10381A: 2850–2250 BCE
79 Ÿ I0263/10385A: 2850–2250 BCE
80 Ÿ I0823/10360A: 2850–2250 BCE
81 Ÿ I0825/10394A: 2474–2300 calBCE (3915±29 BP, MAMS-25939)
82 Ÿ I0826/10400A: 2833–2480 calBCE (4051±28 BP, MAMS-25940)
83 Ÿ I1553/10388A: 2850–2250 BCE
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No steppe ancestry, four Y-DNA results, two being R1b, one G2a, another I2a. For the last two in Catalonia there are levels of 10% for each, for the other two R1b of course would be rare clades, isn't?

Have found the trick? The hypogeum had four buriyng times separated by layers, being those associated with Bell Beakers the superior three. I0826 was I2a2 and has a date that could be assigned to the pre-Bell Beaker period, and the individual I0261, with Y-DNA R1b could be found in whichever period... If I0826 is keept out from the equation we could have a 66% R1b, a similar percent as the actual, and remember, of the same clade as the continental Bell Beakers...
 
berun said:
A case more, no conspirancy, just a fiasco:



No steppe ancestry, four Y-DNA results, two being R1b, one G2a, another I2a. For the last two in Catalonia there are levels of 10% for each, for the other two R1b of course would be rare clades, isn't?

Have found the trick? The hypogeum had four buriyng times separated by layers, being those associated with Bell Beakers the superior three. I0826 was I2a2 and has a date that could be assigned to the pre-Bell Beaker period, and the individual I0261, with Y-DNA R1b could be found in whichever period... If I0826 is keept out from the equation we could have a 66% R1b, a similar percent as the actual, and remember, of the same clade as the continental Bell Beakers...
Click to expand...

Have you written a text that explains your opinion about R1b expansion(s) in Europe?
 
@ Olympus Mons, in whichever case even counting the I2a of Cova da Moura as Neolithic, there would be so 6 Y-DNA ancient Portugueses of other clades (G2a, I, I2a) with the samples taken in "The population genomics of archaeological transition in west Iberia". Even so, it would be good to check the geography of such samples.

@ A. Papadimitrou, no summary text but hypotheses: clade coming along G2a from Anatolia with the Neolithic, or WHG clade hiding somewhere in Europe and popping up in Eastern Iberia, or clade that get advantage in Anatolia of the copper technology and invaded all Europe from all directions. In whichever case no Indoeuropean (but a mild possibility could be allowed for the third case).
 
Even though most Spanish Bell Beaker had no Steppe ancestry I still think that U5a1b1 found in Spanish Bell Beaker earlier this year came from the Steppe.
 
berun said:
@ Olympus Mons, in whichever case even counting the I2a of Cova da Moura as Neolithic, there would be so 6 Y-DNA ancient Portugueses of other clades (G2a, I, I2a) with the samples taken in "The population genomics of archaeological transition in west Iberia". Even so, it would be good to check the geography of such samples.

@ A. Papadimitrou, no summary text but hypotheses: clade coming along G2a from Anatolia with the Neolithic, or WHG clade hiding somewhere in Europe and popping up in Eastern Iberia, or clade that get advantage in Anatolia of the copper technology and invaded all Europe from all directions. In whichever case no Indoeuropean (but a mild possibility could be allowed for the third case).
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To me everything about R1b-L51 suggest a European origin. What makes you think it came that it could have come from Anatolia?
 
By "uncle" clade in Anatolia, presence of Kura-Araxes-Yamna R1b there, origin of the Neolithic cultures, etc. The truth is that L51 is near to Z2015 so the focus must be in a common place.
 
Leaving aside the possible Iberian pre-BB samples (not including the dubious Portuguese sample), the Y-DNA would be R1b x2, G2 x1, I2a1 x1.
 
I just went through all the supplementary material on the Beaker sites. Unless I'm missing something, German or Northern or steppe Bell Beaker, whatever you want to call it, bears absolutely no resemblance to the "story" as proposed by Gimbutas and David Anthony: horse riding warriors if not chariot driving warriors, master metallurgists welcomed for their magic, responsible for bringing copper and bronze to Europe, and on and on.

There is none of that in these graves: no horses at all, no wheels either, and extremely poor grave goods. Forget bronze, there isn't even any copper. One grave, in Germany, from Manching-Oberstimm, has a few minor copper items. There are certainly no copper weapons. Indeed, only a few have the wrist guards for archery, which were in any case from Iberian Beaker.

Speaking of Iberian Beaker, the graves are richer, containing copper and gold.

This is even worse than Corded Ware.

Unless I'm missing something it's time to retire those old fantasies which, as I've been saying for a long time, are anachronistic, the result of an unwarranted imposition of Bronze Age culture traits from the east on much more primitive societies.
 
I think that such fantasies will endure more years, there are a lot of people that like the idea of strong and barely-civilized steppe warriors driving chariots capable to conquer all Europe and mating all Neolithic brunettes on the way; the option left would be that their ancestors were indoeuropeanized, so conquered, and the egos of many men wouldn't be so happy with that.
 
Angela said:
I just went through all the supplementary material on the Beaker sites. Unless I'm missing something, German or Northern or steppe Bell Beaker, whatever you want to call it, bears absolutely no resemblance to the "story" as proposed by Gimbutas and David Anthony: horse riding warriors if not chariot driving warriors, master metallurgists welcomed for their magic, responsible for bringing copper and bronze to Europe, and on and on.

There is none of that in these graves: no horses at all, no wheels either, and extremely poor grave goods. Forget bronze, there isn't even any copper. One grave, in Germany, from Manching-Oberstimm, has a few minor copper items. There are certainly no copper weapons. Indeed, only a few have the wrist guards for archery, which were in any case from Iberian Beaker.

Speaking of Iberian Beaker, the graves are richer, containing copper and gold.

This is even worse than Corded Ware.

Unless I'm missing something it's time to retire those old fantasies which, as I've been saying for a long time, are anachronistic, the result of an unwarranted imposition of Bronze Age culture traits from the east on much more primitive societies.
Click to expand...
No wonder they accepted technological achievements, together with pottery, from Iberian Beakers. I didn't know much about Beakers, but CW spread was obviously due to collapse of farming in Northern Europe and the steppe population spilling out, or being squeezed out of Steppe, due to terrible climate (we have seen this scenario again in Dark Ages). No big conquering armies. Barely anyone of locals left alive to fight. Just big movement of poor population fighting elements for survival, and barely winning. Probably their "winning" attributes were, more northern hunter gatherer genetics, more hunting, more fishing and still doing herding and rudimentary farming.
 
LeBrok said:
No wonder they accepted technological achievements, together with pottery, from Iberian Beakers. I didn't know much about Beakers, but CW spread was obviously due to collapse of farming in Northern Europe and the steppe population spilling out, or being squeezed out of Steppe, due to terrible climate (we have seen this scenario again in Dark Ages). No big conquering armies. Barely anyone of locals left alive to fight. Just big movement of poor population fighting elements for survival, and barely winning. Probably their "winning" attributes were, more northern hunter gatherer genetics, more hunting, more fishing and still doing herding and rudimentary farming.
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What is amazing to me is that even after this paper the conversation is continuing about horse riding men bringing metallurgy.

Either I am really missing something or these people are suffering from a massive cognitive disconnect.

Where are the horses? How could they be bringing metallurgy when the Iberian Beakers already had metallurgy, as did the Central European MN., and, indeed, it was more sophisticated metallurgy than that possessed by the Eastern Beakers. Even the pottery looks more crude to me than the Iberian Beaker pottery.

I also fail to see how this could have been a military invasion made possible by superior weapons when only ONE darn grave had a copper weapon, and that was a measly copper dagger.

The list is growing of pop gen hobbyists, posters or bloggers , whose output I no longer read. With the exception of a very few, stick to the papers by the major labs is my advice.i
 
Angela said:
I also fail to see how this could have been a military invasion made possible by superior weapons when only ONE darn grave had a copper weapon, and that was a measly copper dagger.
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bicicleur said:
2 years later the British came back with a larger, better equiped army
it happened all the time in history
in the end sheer power wins over bravery
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To paraphrase Napoleon, God is on the side of the best artillery.
 
bicicleur said:
initially farming was introduced in eastern England by people coming from the old LBK area (middle Germany, Belgium, northern France) and the Swifterbant people (Rhine - Meuse - Scheldt delta)
then megalithic farmers from Atlantic France and Britanny took over in western England and the area around the Irish Sea
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It seems to me the Atlantic megalithers took the strong side upon the preceding Neolithic people, allover Britain, not only in West - and their seemingly strong density in Y-I2a seems proving a turnover of leadership among Western Neolithic people of the Late period - I think the megalithic part of TRBK, more ponounced in West, is a polongation of these maritime megalithers, as their auDNA seems showing (some more WHG, and more proximity to Basques and Northern Iberians in Gokheim - all this could show the HG's heritage in the megalithic phenomenon in West, separating them in some part from Centrla Europe farmers -
 
berun said:
Bell Beakers from NL 9, HU 8, CZ 2, UK 18, D 32, PL 3, F 9 = 81 continental samples (UK samples were already mixed from CE). If the French samples would per example some 70 maybe results would be different? but with such origin for the samples of course the major Neolithic genetic imput will be LBK-like (if it would be done the contrary, some 70 samples from South France and some 10 from North Europe, surely the Neolithic origin would seem rather different).


View attachment 8677
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I suppose they have sampled what they could ! (I prefer to not imagine a Patriarcalists-Yamanayists complot here!)
- the southern auDNA among South France and Switzerland was surely more local than the result of a recent Iberian BB input: acculturation (seemingly proved in some S-France settlements by the archeologic point) -
- the Northern/Central Euro BB's were also acculturated, but of a rather different origin, as well for males than for females -
-I'm tempted to imagine an intermediary (rather male) pop or groups between first Iberian BB's and the last ones of Northern Europe, along Northern Rhône and Rhine -
Everybody can mistake...That said as you I wait more BB's DNA / Haplos from Iberia in well/better assigned archeologic layers -
 
complot? no such case, but just an old attitude.

View attachment 8724

By the way sampling in detail the Barcelona's R1b would have allowed to know if such clades were rare casual extint popping up with BB or some known subclade.
 
berun said:
complot? no such case, but just an old attitude.

By the way sampling in detail the Barcelona's R1b would have allowed to know if such clades were rare casual extint popping up with BB or some known subclade.
Click to expand...


Yes... and as if all this Balkans and southeast europe adna deluge is not because they were looking for steppe migration into anatolia to kill off the Anatolian language conundrum.... yeah right. its all a coincidence. :)
 
@Moesan,
Nobody acculturates this fast. There's something not right with this new narrative of pots not people.
 
Olympus Mons said:
Yes... and as if all this Balkans and southeast europe adna deluge is not because they were looking for steppe migration into anatolia to kill off the Anatolian language conundrum.... yeah right. its all a coincidence. :)
Click to expand...
The whole point of a lot of these papers is to test the standard, or perhaps better stated, the popularized version of the P-C steppe origin and dissemination of the Indo-European languages theory. Part of that would have to be to test whether or NOT Yamnaya like DNA turned up at the time and on the route it would have taken. That was their job. What's the problem?

As to people not acculturating that fast, look at most of the Amer-Indians of Central Mexico. How long did it take...300 years to lose language, religion, culture and adapt new technologies?
 
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