Malisor and N Albanian clans and their origin

Status
Not open for further replies.
Dibran said:
Wrong. Stop pulling numbers out of your bum. Kosova has only 3-5 percent "Slavic" Y-DNA. Even then theres no high resolution testing on these samples. Its Albania that has between 10-20 varying study to study.
Click to expand...

If we count only I2-CTS10228 and R1a as Slavic lines than Albanians from Kosovo have 7% Slavic y dna (I2a 2.5%, R1a 4.5%), and Albanians from Albania 21% (I2a 12%, R1a 9%) [video]https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml[/video]

If we count only I2-CTS10228 and R1a as Slavic lines than Albanians on average have 12.7% Slavic lines (I2-CTS10228 6.8%, R1a-M417 5.9%)
image.jpg
image.jpg


But Slavs were not only I2-CTS10228 and R1a, they had other haplogroups in smaller %.
 
Bachus said:
If we count only I2-CTS10228 and R1a as Slavic lines than Albanians from Kosovo have 7% Slavic y dna (I2a 2.5%, R1a 4.5%), and Albanians from Albania 21% (I2a 12%, R1a 9%) [video]https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml[/video]

If we count only I2-CTS10228 and R1a as Slavic lines than Albanians on average have 12.7% Slavic lines (I2-CTS10228 6.8%, R1a-M417 5.9%)
image.jpg
image.jpg


But Slavs were not only I2-CTS10228 and R1a, they had other haplogroups in smaller %.
Click to expand...
And R1a-L1029 in Sardinia is simply a Germanized Slav brought by Visigoths? Come on now with all the stories of Germanized Slavs.

Same goes to I2a-Din, being brought to Eastern Europe from the West by Celts possibly, and pushed further down to the Balkans by Goths after absorbing it around the Carpathians, and finally it got Romanized and Slavicized. How can all these chains of events justify calling I2a-Din Slavic?
 
If Goths pushed it South, how do you explain that there was no I2a-Din found in 6th cent in a Longobard cemetery in Hungary, just before the arrival of the Slavs?


So far, there is one French sample under I2a-M423>CTS10228, split almost 4000 years ago from the rest, when Slavs did not exist. The rest of the diversity below Y3120 is in Eastern Europe, specifically in Poland, Ukraine and Belarus, and the earliest I2a-Din sample is from 10th cent. Poland.
 
Sample is pretty small, but based on what we got it’s around at 8% for Kosove (including Presheve). That CTS10228 came with Slavs is not even up for debate anymore. Same thing for majority of R1a.
 
Ownstyler said:
If Goths pushed it South, how do you explain that there was no I2a-Din found in 6th cent in a Longobard cemetery in Hungary, just before the arrival of the Slavs?


So far, there is one French sample under I2a-M423>CTS10228, split almost 4000 years ago from the rest, when Slavs did not exist. The rest of the diversity below Y3120 is in Eastern Europe, specifically in Poland, Ukraine and Belarus, and the earliest I2a-Din sample is from 10th cent. Poland.
Click to expand...
You mean the Langobard cemetery which shows affinity to Tuscany? Don't really remember much of the details from the study.

You need a larger sample to prove the lack its existence, especially considering that I2a-Din has mostly a highland distribution while Hungary/Pannonia is a lowland.

Anyway, I don't think there's still enough evidence to call it proto-Slavic.
 
Nik said:
You mean the Langobard cemetery which shows affinity to Tuscany? Don't really remember much of the details from the study.

You need a larger sample to prove the lack its existence, especially considering that I2a-Din has mostly a highland distribution while Hungary/Pannonia is a lowland.

Anyway, I don't think there's still enough evidence to call it proto-Slavic.
Click to expand...
I2a-Y3120 is certainly of Slavic origin. Y3120 has a TMRCA of around 2,200 years ago, so during the 2nd century BC , which is around the time that Proto-Slavic is believed to have been spoken somewhere in eastern Europe. 1,000BC - 1AD is the time frame in which some scholars believe Middle Proto-Slavic was spoken. Diversity and basal clades back up the claim that Y3120 arrived with Slavs from eastern Europe. Y3120 reaches highest diversity in the area around Poland, Ukraine, and Belarus which is precisely where some people believe Proto-Slavic originated from. Basal clades also show up more in eastern Europe than they do anywhere else. Y3120 downstreams also have relatively low TMRCAs suggesting an expansion during the Medieval.

The ancestral clades of Y3120 though may have come from NW Europe given the fact that one was carried by a SHG sample from Motala, Sweden. As well as them being found today in west European countries. Though it is clear that one of these lines migrated east.
 
Nik said:
You mean the Langobard cemetery which shows affinity to Tuscany? Don't really remember much of the details from the study.

You need a larger sample to prove the lack its existence, especially considering that I2a-Din has mostly a highland distribution while Hungary/Pannonia is a lowland.

Anyway, I don't think there's still enough evidence to call it proto-Slavic.
Click to expand...

Current frequency doesn't mean much, but really I2a-Din is more diverse in Poland, Ukraine and Belarus.

It's always better to have more data, but the data we currently have is pretty clear. This view keeps coming back again and again so I'm making a summary of what we already have in the proper thread.
 
I opened this thread for these that claim that N Albanian and Malesia 15-16 century clans originate in Bosnia and more specifically Hercegovina.

To prove their senseless thesis, to try and demonstrate here how would masses of tribal people originate somewhere where some haplogroup goes up to 70 % and they dont belong to it.
Also somewhere where other language then theirs was spoken it that time.

I mean, for this you dont even need genetics lol but logic. Whoever says this is not very sharp.
 
They are just oral traditions though Dema, and yes, genetic evidence doesn’t support them. I agree with you there. We have already spoken about it on multiple occasions.


These are the clans that sport such traditions that come to mind for those who still are undecided: Shkreli (pred Y23094 with some Z2705 and PH2180); Hoti (pred CTS11100 with some Z2705 among the old Hoti); Krasniqi (pred PH1751 with some PH2180 and Z2705 among the Anas); Nikaj (pred PH1751 with some Z2705 among the Anas); Gruda (mix of Y23094, Z2705 and some V13); Trieshi - Bankeq (pred Z16661); Piperi (pred Z2705 with some PH2180) and Vasojevici (pred BY14151).


It’s possible, however, that some of these clans came from further north, especially from regions like old Herzegovina and Dalmatia during early Middle Ages. I wouldn’t totally rule that out. Slavs and Avars that appeared in the region after Rome fell could have pushed them down south. So perhaps they might be remembering those movements/events in more distant past but got lost in translation over the centuries..



BTW it’s Malesor, not ‘Malisori’ xD
 
Last edited:
Leka said:
They are just oral traditions though Dema, and yes, genetic evidence doesn’t support them. I agree with you there. We have already spoken about it in multiple occasions.


These are the clans that sport such traditions that come to mind for those who still are undecided: Shkreli (pred Y23094 with some Z2705 and PH2180); Hoti (pred CTS11100 with some Z2705 among the old Hoti); Krasniqi (pred PH1751 with some PH2180 and Z2705 among the Anas); Nikaj (pred PH1751 with some Z2705 among the Anas); Gruda (mix of Y23094, Z2705 and some V13); Trieshi - Bankeq (pred Z16661); Piperi (pred Z2705 with some PH2180) and Vasojevici (Pred BY14151).


It’s possible, however, that some of these clans came from further north, especially from regions like old Herzegovina and Dalmatia during early Middle Ages. I wouldn’t totally rule that out. Slavs and Avars that appeared in the region after Rome fell could have pushed them down south. So perhaps they might be remembering those movements/events in more distant past but got lost in translation over the centuries..



BTW it’s Malesor, not ‘Malisori’ xD
Click to expand...
Which families in Gruda claim origin from Herzegovina? From what I have read most of Gruda believe to have come from Vuksan Gjela who supposedly came from Suma in Shkodra. The rest believe to have origin from clans such as Berisha. Maybe there is a story that places Vuksan Gjela in Herzegovina? If that's the case then it doesn't seem to be common.
 
Leka said:
They are just oral traditions though Dema, and yes, genetic evidence doesn’t support them. I agree with you there. We have already spoken about it in multiple occasions.


These are the clans that sport such traditions that come to mind for those who still are undecided: Shkreli (pred Y23094 with some Z2705 and PH2180); Hoti (pred CTS11100 with some Z2705 among the old Hoti); Krasniqi (pred PH1751 with some PH2180 and Z2705 among the Anas); Nikaj (pred PH1751 with some Z2705 among the Anas); Gruda (mix of Y23094, Z2705 and some V13); Trieshi - Bankeq (pred Z16661); Piperi (pred Z2705 with some PH2180) and Vasojevici (Pred BY14151).


It’s possible, however, that some of these clans came from further north, especially from regions like old Herzegovina and Dalmatia during early Middle Ages. I wouldn’t totally rule that out. Slavs and Avars that appeared in the region after Rome fell could have pushed them down south. So perhaps they might be remembering those movements/events in more distant past but got lost in translation over the centuries..



BTW it’s Malesor, not ‘Malisori’ xD
Click to expand...

Yes these are mostly the clans, thanks for naming them along with dominating Y-DNA subclade.
But still i was attacked by few people, incl Albanians about this issue claiming their Bosnian/Hercegovinian origin so i wanted to give them a chance to explain.

Regarding Malisori i was already told in this thread that its how Montengrins and foreigners say it, while on Albanian its Malësor.

I absolutely agree with it, even tho both words are very similar and they both for sure have origin in Albanian language.
 
Dema said:
Yes these are mostly the clans, thanks for naming them along with dominating Y-DNA subclade.
But still i was attacked by few people, incl Albanians about this issue claiming their Bosnian/Hercegovinian origin so i wanted to give them a chance to explain.

Regarding Malisori i was already told in this thread that its how Montengrins and foreigners say it, while on Albanian its Malësor.

I absolutely agree with it, even tho both words are very similar and they both for sure have origin in Albanian language.
Click to expand...
Awwww you were attacked? Are you ok now? You need some emotional support?

You speak of logic a lot but what amazes me is how can haplogroups prove that they didn't come from a certain region? Weren't most of people in those regions L283 + E-V13 + R1b-Z2103 before the barbarian migrations? If they came indeed from there you expected them to be I2a-Din?

Again, look at the distance between the current Albanian villages of Montenegro and Herzegovina. Albanians migrated mostly Southwards during the Middle Ages and reached as far as Peloponnesus and even became the majority in many Aegean Islands.

But they couldn't have travelled 3-5 days on horseback from Herzegovina to Montenegro?

Do you understand that with your theories you're giving up on the Lahuta Malcis? All the events happened in those areas and we are not the kind of people that need to steal other's heroism.
 
Nik said:
Awwww you were attacked? Are you ok now? You need some emotional support?

You speak of logic a lot but what amazes me is how can haplogroups prove that they didn't come from a certain region? Weren't most of people in those regions L283 + E-V13 + R1b-Z2103 before the barbarian migrations? If they came indeed from there you expected them to be I2a-Din?

Again, look at the distance between the current Albanian villages of Montenegro and Herzegovina. Albanians migrated mostly Southwards during the Middle Ages and reached as far as Peloponnesus and even became the majority in many Aegean Islands.

But they couldn't have travelled 3-5 days on horseback from Herzegovina to Montenegro?

Do you understand that with your theories you're giving up on the Lahuta Malcis? All the events happened in those areas and we are not the kind of people that need to steal other's heroism.
Click to expand...

Are you handicapped?

You dont understand and perhaps you do need some of that Suisse fondue to restore your brain cells?
You dont understand that these Bosnian Illyrians that lived there 1500 years prior to formation of Albanian clans have nothing to do with almost exclusively Slavic Medieval Bosnia neither with Albanian clans that formed 1500 years later.

Your brain is most certainly left without Suisse fondue which would trigger it into more advance thinking.

So you think masses of E-v13 and J2b2 Illyrians arrived in horses in 15 century from a place where Slavic language was spoken and formed Albanian clans that were actually at that time under Ottoman Empire borders?

Do you really think that? And you have 300 posts on Eupedia? God help us.

What about lahuta? Did you try to stick it up in your ass? Maybe you discover new means of using it, i am not interested in fairy tales.
 
Lahuta e Malcis is an epic literary work by Gjergj Fishta, about true events during the early XX century. You probably meant to refer to Eposi i Kreshnikeve.
 
Kelmendasi said:
Which families in Gruda claim origin from Herzegovina? From what I have read most of Gruda believe to have come from Vuksan Gjela who supposedly came from Suma in Shkodra. The rest believe to have origin from clans such as Berisha. Maybe there is a story that places Vuksan Gjela in Herzegovina? If that's the case then it doesn't seem to be common.
Click to expand...
Gruda as heterogeneous tribe that they are have few traditions regarding their origins. One of those traditions speaks about them coming from Herzegovina, before Shkreli and Hoti. Don’t recall exactly where I have read it, because it has been a while since I looked into Gruda, but if I am not mistaken Marash Uçi spoke of it.
 
Dema said:
Are you handicapped?

You dont understand and perhaps you do need some of that Suisse fondue to restore your brain cells?
You dont understand that these Bosnian Illyrians that lived there 1500 years prior to formation on Albanian clans have nothing to do with almost exclusively Slavic Medieval Bosnia neither with Albanian clans that formed 1500 years later.

Your brain is most certainly left without Suisse fondue which would trigger it into more advance thinking.

So you think masses of E-v13 and J2b2 Illyrians arrived in horses in 15 century from a place where Slavic language was spoken and formed Albanian clans that were actually at that time under Ottoman Empire borders.

Do you really think that? And you have 300 posts on Eupedia? God help us.

What about lahuta? Did you try to stick it up in your ass? Maybe you discover new means of using it, i am not interested in fairy tales.
Click to expand...
:D

What in hell are you talking about again? I'm not typing in Phoenician (although you should be able to understand that). Don't you think that those Bosnian Illyrians were also J2b, R1b, and E-V13?

Educate yourself about the fact that Albanian was recorded in those mountains of Dalmatia (farther than Herzegovina) very early (13th century if I'm not mistaken) and that about 1/4 of of lastnames among Lika migrants were Albanian or Albanian-like while the majority were Vlachs/Slavicized Vlachs. One of the reasons they were fleeing was also the migrating Serbs from further East escaping the Ottomans. Those Serbs/Vlachs settled in Montenegro, Herzegovina, Bosnia, and Croatia, and even in the territories of Austria and Hungary.

Dema said:
We got our first Saudi Arabian sample who is CTS1969 positive!
Looks like he upped the entire J2-M205 TMRCA to 6000 years together with CTS1969 TMRCA, also looks like he is basal CTS1969?

As it can be seen on Yfull he is from Mekkah, Saudi Arabia. Mashallah! https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/
Click to expand...
This is why I don't take you seriously as you're not one of us.

Ownstyler said:
Lahuta e Malcis is an epic literary work by Gjergj Fishta, about true events during the early XX century. You probably meant to refer to Eposi i Kreshnikeve.
Click to expand...
Yeah sorry, I meant Eposi as I mentioned in an earlier post. Thanks.
 
Leka said:
Gruda as heterogeneous tribe that they are have few traditions regarding their origins. One of those traditions speaks about them coming from Herzegovina, before Shkreli and Hoti. Don’t recall exactly where I have read it, because it has been a while since I looked into Gruda, but if I am not mistaken Marash Uçi spoke of it.
Click to expand...
Yh that is true, it is made up of various families and clans that are unrelated for the most part. However I did read that a large percentage of them believed they were descended from Vuksan Gjela. I looked it up and it seems that some of the families in Grude believe to have come from Herzegovina in the early 16th century, according to Elsie. Interesting stuff, wonder how they had come to develop these origin stories.
 
Guys you're making such a big deal of the Herzegovina origin. Just open Google Maps and you will realize that Malesia has almost the same distance from Herzegovina as it does from Kosovo.

A Ragusan document from 1285 mentioned: "I heard a voice crying in the mountains in the Albanian language" (Audivi unam vocem clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca)". Behind Ragusa (modern Dubrovnik) is the Herzegovinian and Dalmatian hinterland.
 
Nik said:
Nice try. If anything, J2-M205 should be a remnant of a Romanized population from the Middle East (e.g. Syrian archers in the Danube legions). So you should be looking at Vlachs as your ancestors not Illyrians.

Before you go on a rampage, Vlachs were just about anyone who happened to live in the Balkans and was Romanized as seen by their haplogroups including locals, Germanic, Slavic, etc.
Click to expand...

In my opinion J2b1 was originally a Mycenaean haplogroup, later during Roman invasion became Vlach. Modern Greeks have less J2b1 because they are a fusion of Tsakonians, Arvanites, Anatolians, Pontians, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds, etc etc.
 
Dema said:
As we all know many Albanian but also Montenegrin, so known Malisor tribes have oral tradition of origin in Hercegovina.

I think that among many scientific proofs that DNA researches did, like confirming theory of evolution. They also confirmed that Malisor tribes originated in Malesia e Madhe. Incl North Albania and partially Montenegro. Rather then in Bosnia or Hercegovina.

I see people post that these tribes like Kelmendi, Berisha, Hoti, and others have origin in Bosnia and Hercegovina. So i am asking myself can you people interpret genetic results?
What we are talking here are 15 century Albanian tribes. So not 15 century BCE, but 15 century CE. 500 years ago.
Its clear that most of these clans belong to haplogroups E-v13, R1b and J2b2. Rather then I2a-CTS10228 that dominates in Hercegovina up to 70 % with its highest peak there.

So i dont see how these great masses of various tribes arrived 500 years ago, from a place where these haplogroups are barely visible. And from a place where other language then Albanian was spoken.
Greater logic would be that tribes are formed out of Malesia, North Albania and Montenegrin villagers and native people, from a desire to protect their lands under their own clan flag within Ottoman empire.
Just as for example British writer Noel Malcolm recorded in his book about Albanian clans history. Just as we can see today from genetic researches.

Vasojevici are also native Montenegrin tribe, and their Croatian and Slovene relatives are also with Illyrian Montenegrin origin.
Hoti, J2b2, Kelmendi E-v13 and so on.. I think Leki and some others know more about specific oral history, and Kelmendasi, im not into that but i can see genetic results and possibilities clearly.


Regarding clans not all belonging to same haplo that is normal, that is purpose of clan. It is not brotherhood. When more people and head chiefs gather around the same flag. Of course same clans could be more uniform but from every clan is expected to recruit these that are worthy and i believe a kind of oath is taken there.

So there is not a single evidence that would support theory that 15 century Malesia tribes originate in Bosnia or Hercegovina, but everything is pointing out Malesia e Madhe, N Albania and partially Montenegro. Mostly out of villagers and locals trying to protect their lands.

30 % of E-v13 in Montenegro, Serbia, its mostly assimilated Albanians more recently or Illyrian remains. Same with J2b2 and R1b. But also J2b1-M205 that was for sure native Montenegrin Illyrian group, and belonged to old 12 century Kriqi tribe.
Click to expand...

Just asking, why you guys all are obsessed to know what's your Y-dna is? I really don't care about mine.

Now, as for your statement, at least until 1000 ad, there wasn't any Albanian migration from Bosnia. However, before that date, probably there was some. According to serious linguists, Albanian language was spoken in proximity to old church Slavonic before 1000 ad. Slavic loanwords in Albanian predates 1000 ad. The same as with Latin. Slavic loanwords are too old. This means that Albans and Slavs lived side by side. According to Albanian clans seems that their claims aren't totally with no base. Some of Illyrian population were pushed southward during the seventh century and later.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

This thread has been viewed 51657 times.

Back
Top