Politics Brexit: not inevitable

Voyager said:
I think that UK is the first casualty of European Federalism. Migrants Problem is just a side argument. The main argument is the feeling that Bruxelles want to decide for the European Peoples, I heard this argument quite often from Brexit peoples. Euro money leads us to a Federalism system at the end. Federalism is much more coercive than a simple commercial Union of free nations. The European Peoples view it more as a trap. Next, Frexit is getting likely IMO.
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As long as Russia isn't domineering; then leaving the EU would probably be a better idea -- but Russia seems like they are not going to let go. They want the EU to be dependent on them. This is the disturbing thing about this election turnout (Brexet) in my opinion. Losing a big country like the UK is a very big blow. If you think of the EU in terms of analogy or at face value; it is almost like the USA losing California or Texas. It is almost as bad or dangerous as risking civil war. Which is why I think England leaving wasn't a good idea. Britain being there is helping to patch up the economy. And who knows what Russia has in store; if they decide to take advantage of the situation. Now the Russians are happier that Britain is out of the EU, because they have a better control, or better chance of succeeding and/or exploiting their own economy and Europe's economy, in Russia's hands.
 
nordicwarrior said:
Relax folks, Brexit was the better option.

And as an American, I feel pity for Putin if he thinks Germany or the UK are now in play in any way.
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You're naive my friend. Russia wants to see Brexit because it weakens Europe and the West. And makes Europe (EU) more dependent on Russian resources. Thereby, enriching and empowering Russia more; and Europe even less. Russia now has the strong-hand. Britain and the West do not. And UK going independent holds a real consequence of collapsing internally..
 
Melcombe said:
Your observations are very insightful.I cannot emphasise too much how shocking the result has been to most people in the UK - it was very unexpected. Those voting to leave were mainly older, poorer and less skilled workers. Their votes have condemned the country to economic decline and will, ironically adversely affect those groups the most. For the most part the "complaint" of those voting to leave, was immigration - despite the fact that EU membership is largely irrelevant to the type of immigration mostly complained about.For my part I feel bereaved - I have had my country stolen from me by a small margin of an ill-informed vote. I have however been heartened by the very wide spectrum of people supporting and campaigning for a reversal the decision. Implementation of Article 50 is not a foregone conclusion (referenda have no status in the UK constitution - only Parliament can decide the matter) and, even if it is triggered, it is very possible that during the 2 year exit period there will be an election following which a new government would not feel bound by it. If that were to happen there would be no obligation on the EU to halt the process of departure, but it remains a real hope.The divisions in British society caused by this issue are very deep indeed. No serious business commentator suggests that the UK would do well in the world market - and most rightly expect the country to do very significantly worse. My own view is that the economic arguments are broadly irrelevant - the European project was built on the foundations of reconciliation after 2 catastrophic European wars in the 20th Century caused by the growth of nationalism in the 19th. To give up on the creation of the worlds first non-nationalist state as a guarantee of peace and security is to betray the sacrifices of millions of Europeans who died in those terrible conflicts.Please do not think that the result of the vote is representative of the heart of the UK - for most people here under 50, Europe remains our destiny. Current events are a tragedy in the making and a huge self-inflicted wound. Please help us.David
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Every word is true.
There is also a rise in English racism against Polish migrants and long established Muslim families.
 
The pound sterling has lost over 10pc against the US dollar and the euro since the referendum and shoppers are saving rather than spending because Britain will not even chose the next prime minister till September 9th.
 
nordicwarrior said:
I feel pity for Putin if he thinks Germany or the UK are now in play in any way.
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Have you been watching the news? Whom do you think Europe is getting their international resources from? Especially Germany? It's Russia, not us. Why do you think America has tried to impose sanctions on Russia? Russia are going to take advantage of this situation. Brexit, It is total bad news for the West.

Britain left the EU and the rest of Europe out to dry. Their (EU) only option now is selling out to Russia and blocking trade from North America. They will become more dominant on Russia and the Middle East. Same as Israel. As an American, you are not aware of that? The global economy is now in the hands of Russia, and no longer the West. Think about it - This situation with Brexit totally has disastrous consequence.
 
Both Putin and Trump want to see the EU dismantled and obviously would back far right parties within EU to help the process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiWE5frLjZQ

One would have expected two forerunners such as Boris Kemal (Johnson) and Nigel Farage to show leadership and come up with plans and maybe a road map of how Britain is going to do well outside the EU.....what they have been preaching all the way. But what happened? One said he want his life back! and dissapeared... and other felt he is not competent to be prime minster and disappeared...no plans no strategies..... for only to have a pro EU candidate as a favorite to become Britain's next prime minister AND face the mess, while Nigel Farage will be receiving now even a pension from the EU institution he insulted for 12 years.
 
Maleth said:
Both Putin and Trump want to see the EU dismantled and obviously would back far right parties within EU to help the process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiWE5frLjZQ

One would have expected two forerunners such as Boris Kemal (Johnson) and Nigel Farage to show leadership and come up with plans and maybe a road map of how Britain is going to do well outside the EU.....what they have been preaching all the way. But what happened? One said he want his life back! and other felt he is not competent to be prime minster,no plans no strategies..... for only to have a pro EU candidate as a favorite to become prime minister AND face the mess.
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Well ironically, Trump may be the only hope for the Western world now. If you realize that or not. Unfortunately even if he is against the EU. He and Putin will have to compromise and make a deal. Two world superpowers.

I think this is such a ridiculous situation. And only half of Britain determined our futures.
 
Korbyn said:
Well ironically, Trump may be the only hope for the Western world now. If you realize that or not. Unfortunately even if he is against the EU. He and Putin will have to compromise and make a deal. Two world superpowers.
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:confused::grin:. How is that possible? Any hints? I am open to any rational instances that can maybe help me see some positive aspects in a Trump presidency. So far it has been the simple chorus of immigration, getting the country back, so and so forth. The kind of talk that plays sweet music to a section of the population psyche ...(just to be diplomatically correct). But is it really wise to stop there and cheer?

On the other hand no one is (example) explaining how he will start manufacturing the T-shirts he produces in Turkey (because of cheaper labor) back to America and all the other products he produce in much cheaper labor countries. What kind of wages would he proposing to be competitive? especially with a country that has one of the highest wages world wide? People need to start asking these questions before getting high on Making America great type of buzz words. We know the Britts fell for it, but no one is saying how the standard of living is at the least going to remain the same, without any repercussions such as job losses lower wages and more expensive commodities.

I dont know.....maybe Norbert Hofer or Marine Le Pan will be presenting some kind of model?
 
You are naive to think an American President like Trump would have any intervention with the EU or want to destroy it. It is not even his business...should it not be obvious? Same thing with Hillary Clinton... The EU is in control of itself, it's own destiny; not the USA.

You misunderstood my post; the person you should be worrying about is Putin not Trump...
 
Korbyn said:
You are naive to think an American President like Trump would have any intervention with the EU or want to destroy it. It is not even his business...should it not be obvious? Same thing with Hillary Clinton... The EU is in control of itself, it's own destiny; not the USA...
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Well I am not sure if you watched the video I posted. He traveled day after referendum to Scotland (who voted over 60% to remain in EU) but complimented the Brits in general for leaving saying its a good good thing for taking control. (would he not wish other countries the same?) Why would you think I am naive for thinking that Trump supports a fractured EU? Isnt it obvious enough? and why would you think he is not interested in EU affairs if he mentioned it in his speech with SUCH prominence.
 
Maleth said:
Well I am not sure if you watched the video I posted. He traveled day after referendum to Scotland (who voted over 60% to remain in EU) but complimented the Brits in general for leaving saying its a good good thing for taking control. (would he not wish other countries the same?) Why would you think I am naive for thinking that Trump supports a fractured EU? Isnt it obvious enough? and why would you think he is not interested in EU affairs if he mentioned it in his speech with SUCH prominence.
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You should calm down. Trump has no power over the EU. As I said, it's the EU (and the European peoples') decision. And I am usually a right-wing voter myself, although I don't like Trump very much..but I have stated here quite clearly why I think leaving the EU was a bad decision. So, take whatever you can.. and learn from it.
 
As I predicted, Brexit is widely used as a scapegoat for the cracks in world economy (new banking crisis in Europe, currency devaluations), distracting from the central banks failures. If world economy were sound, Brexit wouldn't cause any significant damage. Brexit is merely a tiny catalyst. Before the full economic situation is exhibited, a "surprising incident" will happen.
I didn't expect though that some people (Cameron, media) have the guts to blame the british referendum result on Putin(TM), even though there is not one single evidence that Putin hates EU (even though considering what EU did in Ukraine, it wouldn't be surprising).
This is how the blame game works: we are always right. If not, then it was because of Emmanuel Goldstein.
 
ElHorsto said:
As I predicted, Brexit is widely used as a scapegoat for the cracks in world economy (new banking crisis in Europe, currency devaluations), distracting from the central banks failures. If world economy were sound, Brexit wouldn't cause any significant damage. Brexit is merely a tiny catalyst. Before the full economic situation is exhibited, a "surprising incident" will happen.
I didn't expect though that some people (Cameron, media) have the guts to blame the british referendum result on Putin(TM), even though there is not one single evidence that Putin hates EU (even though considering what EU did in Ukraine, it wouldn't be surprising).
This is how the blame game works: we are always right. If not, then it was because of Emmanuel Goldstein.
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Who is supplying Europe with your oil? It is not us Americans. Hold on, think for a second. If Russia is crushed, what is going to happen to the EU? And especially if the UK proves themselves to be more successful without the EU...
 
Korbyn said:
You should calm down. Trump has no power over the EU. As I said, it's the EU (and the European peoples') decision. And I am usually a right-wing voter myself, although I don't like Trump very much..but I have stated here quite clearly why I think leaving the EU was a bad decision. So, take whatever you can.. and learn from it.
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Well you heard what Trump had to say in Scotland. Its a good good thing (Brexit). - if anyone does not understand that, I don't have much more to say.
 
Maleth said:
Well you heard what Trump had to say in Scotland. Its a good good thing (Brexit). - if anyone does not understand that, I don't have much more to say.
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Yes, he said this the next day after the referendum.
 
Maleth said:
Well you heard what Trump had to say in Scotland. Its a good good thing (Brexit). - if anyone does not understand that, I don't have much more to say.
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are you chocked? did he have no right to do so?
I know of 1 major American politician who toke side before the poll.
Even Putin could restrain from that.
 
bicicleur said:
are you chocked? did he have no right to do so?
I know of 1 major American politician who toke side before the poll.
Even Putin could restrain from that.
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Not really shocked and that is totally besides the point anyway. The point is its very silly for anyone to say Trump does not care about EU and does not have anti EU sentiment with such comments. Is it difficult to understand?
 
Maleth said:
Not really shocked and that is totally besides the point anyway. The point is its very silly for anyone to say Trump does not care about EU and does not have anti EU sentiment with such comments. Is it difficult to understand?
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I generally agree with you but one can't forget that as an individual, Trump is a blustering, uninformed idiot and flip flopping opportunist. Not only does he generally lack a complete and total understanding of the most important issues facing the world, but he also changes his stances and opinions depending on the room he's in--with people like this, it's hard to ever truly know what they actually support or do not support.

When he was in Scotland, he didn't intentionally support Britain's decision to leave the EU, knowing that Scotland voted to remain. In true Trump fashion, he didn't know that Scotland voted to remain and was merely speaking out of his ass, as he is wont to do. He tweeted this the day after the referendum: "Just arrived in Scotland. Place is going wild over the vote. They took their country back, just like we will take America back. No games!" He's simply fed right-wing talking points by his handlers and he repeats them like a less intelligent Mynah bird--usually, his handlers point him in the right direction and set him loose but this time, someone messed up (most likely Trump himself).

And again, aside from his idiocy, he is a professional flip flopper. This is Trump in 2013, speaking on the need for European/International economic interdependence: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/22/business/opinion-donald-trump-europe/

"The near meltdown we experienced a few years ago made it clear that our economic health depended on dependence on each other to do the right thing.


We are now closer to having an economic community in the best sense of the term -- we work with each other for the benefit of all.


I think we've all become aware of the fact that our cultures and economics are intertwined... It's a time for working together for the best of all involved. Never before has the phrase "we're all in this together" had more resonance or relevance."
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"We will have to leave borders behind and go for global unity when it comes to financial stability...


Europe is a tapestry that is dense, colorful and deserving of continued longevity and prosperity. There are many pieces that must be carefully fitted together in order to thrive.


Our challenge is to acknowledge those pieces and to see how they can form a whole that works together well without losing any cultural flavor in the process. It's a combination of preservation along with forward thinking."
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Does that sound like someone who'd support Britain leaving the EU? lol He is a joke. I do agree that, now, he seems to hold nativist, anti-EU views but my overall point is that we can't be sure that he authentically holds these views or if this is just another bout of political expediency. His past comments tend to support the latter. But who knows when he will next alter his position.
 
Wanderlust, I don't agree with much of what you've said here-- but you are well-spoken, thoughtful and intelligent.

All that being said-- you are not yet wise.
 
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