Where did E-V13 originate ?

@Aspurg: All you say is reasonable, and I agree with it by and large, but don't you think it makes things more complicate than they have to be? I mean if we have a surviving Lengyel-Sopot/TCC tradition up in the Carpathian sphere, how could we even notice it archaeology after its assimilation? With a more South Wester, Dalmatian origin, you just have to explain yet another turn of events and migration. So while both is possible, I think a survival directly in the Carpathian zone is much more likely. And I asked the same question on Anthrogenica, I so far so not a single clade of E-V13 which must have been pre-LBA and especially none with a clearly wider spread and splitting pattern, like Britain : Balkan or Scandinavia : Near East dating to anything before the EIA. I guess that even some of the potential clades are just a matter of lack of more sampling, which will prove regional subclade of a similar age rather than anything older?

There is an issue of some lone E-BY3880* clades. One Albanian tested E-CTS5856*, likely per STR's BY3880*. Cluster of Macedonians E-BY3880*. Some other non-Z5018/Z5018 clades seem to have MBA/EBA presence in the Balkans, going per current result. If we go by TMRCA estimates then these clades should be explained.

With that in mind it was important for me to prove that CTS1273 was not born in the Balkans, even if some BY3880's might have been. Of the 3 non-BY3880 clades none going by the current evidence was born in the Balkans, indicating clearly CTS1273 wasn't either (and ofc most of their clades have Carpathian branches).

Take the example of Ossetians. They have a cluster R-Y5587>Y5586>BY71456. R-Y5587 with Carpathian R-Y14300 and generally East Balkan R-Y5586 seems to mimic Glina III culture well. In which case Ossetian cluster might be some stray Eastern Glina branch assimilated by the Srubnaya etc. But they also have E-CTS1273>FT7781 (BY3880-). R-Y5587>BY71456 Ossetian cluster might be a hint that E-FT7781 is of Glina branch as well. They could have had similar paths. They definitely seem to have similar paths for over 2000 years..

Also one argument if E-Y37092 indeed is related to Cetina culture, if we assume E-Y37092 came from the Carpathians, it would be little bit bizarre that it went to Dalmatia and made contact with a population of some E-L618 survivors.

If one takes Glina culture path then all stray Balkan E-V13 clades are easily explainable through some EBA migrations.. And this cannot be countered easily. To fit them into Urnfield you have to rely that in the future they will have their matches in the Urnfield areas.

Recently a Romanian E-Y35953 appeared and it seems that Romanians are the only people to have both major subclades of Y35953: E-PF6784 and E-BY15406. This new Romanian should be BY15406+ and there is a cluster of Romanians which seems to belong to E-PF6784. This is why it is important to test more Romanians because of larger V13 population there.

And ofc we hardly have Romanian BA/IA aDNA..

Another interesting question is, probably you can answer it, which other E1b clades could be associated with the survival and spread of E-V13, even though they were not as successful. Like we have a lot of E-M35 samples now from around Neolithic Europe and we have other, probably Germanic-Slavic E1b samples from Vikings and early Slavs-Germans as you know. Probably they survived together in the North Carpathian region until taking different paths, probably even some E1b1b departed earlier from the main E-V13 group in the North and managed to survive as a very small minority?

Well there is a L618 clade in Albanians: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y182141/

Not sure E-BY64249 are Saudis or Albanians (both of them are in this clade at FTDNA). This seems to fit into Cardial wave. There is some L618 Latvian with Chalcolitic links to Lebanon so we can't judge much there.

I spoke of a Z5017 clade before which has clearly old presence in Scandinavia: Norwegian, Swede, Dane with LBA/EIA TMRCA. None of them are at YFull yet. Their EBA/MBA relatives are in Scotland/Ireland.
 
Also one argument if E-Y37092 indeed is related to Cetina culture, if we assume E-Y37092 came from the Carpathians, it would be little bit bizarre that it went to Dalmatia and made contact with a population of some E-L618 survivors.

To reflect on E-Y37092, and its Western Balkan diversity I will also analyze other possibility, namely Carpathian links of Y37092.
- Vasojevici clan Montenegro
E-Y126722
- Rajevici Novi Pazar area, (YF18895)
- Albanian Dushmani E-Y173058, not sure if both Albanians are Dushmani, probably not.

Additionally there is N.Macedonian who is E-BY14150 in cluster with the Spanish guy.

It is not seen currently neither at YFull nor FTDNA because of no NGS results but per SNP and STR results E-BY14150 exists in a Ukrainian, Rusyn, and Slovak. They are distant to Macedonian E-BY14150, probably around the TMRCA of this clade (2600 ybp), and Slovak seems pretty distant from the others too, so I trust Carpathian E-BY14150 have TMRCA of over 2000 years if they are not parallel clades. In a Moldovan study good E-Y81468 candidates are found. In the same study there is also one E-BY14150.

There is some Polish haplotype that seems certainly related to Vasojevici albeit he looks close, roughly 600-800 years based on Y67 so not sure what to make of it. E-Y30976 has Pole, also closer to Pole than hi Armenian cousin are Hungarians and Tatar interestingly. Though this Armenian is from Istanbul.

So there is some Carpathian diversity, and older presence of E-BY14150 at least there. Other than Macedonian there are no other E-BY14150's, not even candidates for BY14150..
 
If Southern Illyrians were J2b2 dominated then you have to explain the relatively low J2b2 among Southern Albanians. The truth is we don't know for sure yet, it's weird since archeologically i have read two opposing opinions, people thinking Thracians were already formed by 1500 B.C and other thinking they were descended from Gava Culture.
The other weird things are the Messapians who are considered Illyrian, Albanians and Thracians having a common word for horse, manz/maz.
Whatever the percentages were, we shall find out soon i guess.

This isn't an important question, why? Modern southern Albanians do not solely determine which y dnas ilyrians belonged to, they were a large group of tribes that inhabited western balkans. Also:

1. Southern Albanians haven't had enough dna tests as of yet, Northern Albanians a lot more

2. South Albanians seem to have more south Slavic y dna than j2b as it stands, so it is unclear what happened historically in south Albania, this is a bigger question. From current tests it has influence from South Slavs, Italians, Greeks (maybe some of this came from ottoman?). It could be that some south Albanians are descendents of Epirus which would have also had Greek y dna and (modern) Greece seems quite mixed itself so do the math

3. We don't know for sure when/where j2b came from and which other y dna it may have come with (maybe r1b z2103 which south albania seems to have a fair amount of)

4. Northern Albanians are a bit more isolated, more mountainous so may have avoided mixing with others
 
To reflect on E-Y37092, and its Western Balkan diversity I will also analyze other possibility, namely Carpathian links of Y37092.
- Vasojevici clan Montenegro
E-Y126722
- Rajevici Novi Pazar area, (YF18895)
- Albanian Dushmani E-Y173058, not sure if both Albanians are Dushmani, probably not.

Additionally there is N.Macedonian who is E-BY14150 in cluster with the Spanish guy.

It is not seen currently neither at YFull nor FTDNA because of no NGS results but per SNP and STR results E-BY14150 exists in a Ukrainian, Rusyn, and Slovak. They are distant to Macedonian E-BY14150, probably around the TMRCA of this clade (2600 ybp), and Slovak seems pretty distant from the others too, so I trust Carpathian E-BY14150 have TMRCA of over 2000 years if they are not parallel clades. In a Moldovan study good E-Y81468 candidates are found. In the same study there is also one E-BY14150.

There is some Polish haplotype that seems certainly related to Vasojevici albeit he looks close, roughly 600-800 years based on Y67 so not sure what to make of it. E-Y30976 has Pole, also closer to Pole than hi Armenian cousin are Hungarians and Tatar interestingly. Though this Armenian is from Istanbul.

So there is some Carpathian diversity, and older presence of E-BY14150 at least there. Other than Macedonian there are no other E-BY14150's, not even candidates for BY14150..

I think what this really shows, still, is how difficult it is to determine a source. In reality, if there was a large scale migration, of the bulk of a people, their whole variation migrated with them, to the new home and left the old source region. This is can't be explored that easily without ancient DNA, obviously.
 
E-y138701* (e-by4610*)

Hello,

My paternal family is from Algeria (Medea-Tablat),i am a carrier of a quite unusual haplogroup for an North African :
E-V13 --> E-Z5016 --> E-Y138701* (E-BY4610*)
My Closest matches on Yfull 3 Portuguese Guys from Azores isles TMRCA : 3100 years
On FTDNA haplotree, the only carrier of E-Y138701* (E-BY4610*) is also Also an Algerian, all his closest matches are Portuguese or Spaniard.
I presume that E-Y138701 (E-BY4610) is a rare E-Z5016 branch,(the far most important branch is Y3762/SK888).

Someone have an idea about the origin of this branch E-Y138701 (E-BY4610)?.

Regards,
 
Hello,

My paternal family is from Algeria (Medea-Tablat),i am a carrier of a quite unusual haplogroup for an North African :
E-V13 --> E-Z5016 --> E-Y138701* (E-BY4610*)
My Closest matches on Yfull 3 Portuguese Guys from Azores isles TMRCA : 3100 years
On FTDNA haplotree, the only carrier of E-Y138701* (E-BY4610*) is also Also an Algerian, all his closest matches are Portuguese or Spaniard.
I presume that E-Y138701 (E-BY4610) is a rare E-Z5016 branch,(the far most important branch is Y3762/SK888).

Someone have an idea about the origin of this branch E-Y138701 (E-BY4610)?.

Regards,

In my opinion E-V13 was brought to Europe with Cardial Neolithic settlers, spread to Central Eastern Europe and came after the steppe invasion down to the Balkans and spread throuhout large portions of Europe with Channelled Ware, the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and early Hallstatt. That's even more true E-Z5017+E-Z5018, so its for sure relevant for your clade. This means that probably in the Iron Age or Roman times some clans or individuals moved from Eastern Central Europe or the Balkans to Iberia. Probably with Celts or as Roman settlers and soldiers, some even came with Germanics, Goths and Vandals in particular.
Somewhere around that time some Iberian, Greek or Italian moved to North Africa, either in Roman times or in the Islamic period. Do you know whether converted Europeans from Iberia fled from the Reconquista? The TMRCA of you with your closest matches in Algeria and Europe could be enlightening.
 
I think what this really shows, still, is how difficult it is to determine a source. In reality, if there was a large scale migration, of the bulk of a people, their whole variation migrated with them, to the new home and left the old source region. This is can't be explored that easily without ancient DNA, obviously.
Now, you hit the jackpot. Only ancient DNA will fully determine the truth about those multiple problems. Anything above that is pure speculation and .....reasoning. I think we already can have some examples of good reasoning BEFORE aDNA come into place. Can you point some here ? Who can be rated as 'GOOD DNA PROPHET' till now ?
Cheers.
 
Now, you hit the jackpot. Only ancient DNA will fully determine the truth about those multiple problems. Anything above that is pure speculation and .....reasoning. I think we already can have some examples of good reasoning BEFORE aDNA come into place. Can you point some here ? Who can be rated as 'GOOD DNA PROPHET' till now ?
Cheers.

If you read through this post of mine:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-culture/page4?p=626679&viewfull=1#post626679

There can be little doubt about Channelled Ware played a pivotal role one way or another. E-V13 wasn't there/as frequent before, but being present in most regions afterwards. But they could have picked it up in some minor participating culture, that's to me the main unknown.
 
In my opinion E-V13 was brought to Europe with Cardial Neolithic settlers, spread to Central Eastern Europe and came after the steppe invasion down to the Balkans and spread throuhout large portions of Europe with Channelled Ware, the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and early Hallstatt. That's even more true E-Z5017+E-Z5018, so its for sure relevant for your clade. This means that probably in the Iron Age or Roman times some clans or individuals moved from Eastern Central Europe or the Balkans to Iberia. Probably with Celts or as Roman settlers and soldiers, some even came with Germanics, Goths and Vandals in particular.
Somewhere around that time some Iberian, Greek or Italian moved to North Africa, either in Roman times or in the Islamic period. Do you know whether converted Europeans from Iberia fled from the Reconquista? The TMRCA of you with your closest matches in Algeria and Europe could be enlightening.

Hello,
Many Thanks for this useful and meaningful answer!, on Yfull all my 3 Portuguese cousins are under E-BY4611 subclade (1950 years), but on FTDNA,this subclade far much older (3400 years) due to presence of more samples and downstream subclades subclades,all samples under E-BY4611 are Iberian.
 
On the root of E-L618 there is a new member coming from USA: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

It would be good to know his paternal ancestry, otherwise USA doesn't tell us much.

Immediately down on the tree sits people with ancestry from Lebanon and Latvia (apparently German with possible Jewish origins) which reinforces the idea of maritime Cardial Pottery/Impressed-Ware Culture spread.
 
On the root of E-L618 there is a new member coming from USA: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

It would be good to know his paternal ancestry, otherwise USA doesn't tell us much.

Immediately down on the tree sits people with ancestry from Lebanon and Latvia (apparently German with possible Jewish origins) which reinforces the idea of maritime Cardial Pottery/Impressed-Ware Culture spread.

and those 2 individuals under
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FT150193/

are albanians ( that is what is been writen in anthrogenica) from rrenjet project :unsure:
 
Hello my branch is E-FTA50192 would I need to submit this to yfull from familytreedna for it to appear? My line appears to have stayed in and around southern Austria for many millennia.
 
Hello my branch is E-FTA50192 would I need to submit this to yfull from familytreedna for it to appear? My line appears to have stayed in and around southern Austria for many millennia.

Yes, if you want it to be on YFull, you must register there, send them the link to your raw data and pay a fee.
 

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