Corded Ware roots of Levite DNA?
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Angela
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Absolutely no one has said that, not even the foremost scholars on Jewish genetics.
The most anyone has said is that PERHAPS the Ashkenazim were PARTLY formed by Jewish men admixing with Italian women. Problem is that there's no IBD sharing between them. There "is" some with Eastern Europeans, on the other hand.
You might want to read this latest thread on the subject. No one yet really knows the whole story. Until they release data on Jews of the Classical Era and compare them to people in Greece, Italy and other parts of West Eurasia in the same era no one is going to know.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...into-Ashkenazi-Jews?highlight=Jewish+genetics
There are only two possibilities for Ashkenazim.
Either they are part Levantine part Italian.
Either they are 60% Greek, 30% Levantine.
The most Northern-shifted Levantine are Alawites, Northern most Syrians and (salty) Cypriots but none of them are like Ashkenazim genetically.
Ashkenazim are also in their basal ancestry identical to Sephardic, Romaniote and old standing Italian Jews.
Either they are part Levantine part Italian.
Either they are 60% Greek, 30% Levantine.
The most Northern-shifted Levantine are Alawites, Northern most Syrians and (salty) Cypriots but none of them are like Ashkenazim genetically.
Ashkenazim are also in their basal ancestry identical to Sephardic, Romaniote and old standing Italian Jews.
Angela
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Read the darn paper instead of listening to half baked analyses from t-rolls.
MOESAN
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Without to judge the Pip hypothesis, I would say:
nothing at the present stage of knowledge, links CWC with proto-Germanic as a basis - the dates of apparition of well defined and separated modern languages families do not prove or disprove their possible connexions.
Aryans belonged to many haplogroups, but some 'Aryans' were already Z94 and not Z93.
Z94 in Aryans and Z283 in Corded Ware went through different evolutions. R1a in CWC was already very different from Asian R1a.
Genesis starts with the creation of our world and the history of Adam and Eve. Those stories were directly imported from the Mesopotamia. Also the national god of Israel and Judah, Yahweh, was from the Mesopotamia, came most probably from the Hurrians.
Haplogroups in CWC are ancestral to some haplogroups in Germanic people. But not in other (Asian) populations at all. Native Jewish haplogroups are very different from CWC haplogroups. R1a in CWC was already very different from ancient Asian R1a. Germanic was partly formed by CWC, that's why CWC was partly a proto-Germanic language and also some haplogroups of CWC ended up in some modern Germanic populations in Germany.
Not possible. R1a in CWC has been associated with Z283, while Aryans had already Z94. Z283 and Z94 are 2 very different things.
Z283 is not 'Aryan'.
If Mitanni had some R1a in them next to other haplogroups like J2a, their R1a would be most likely Z94. And R1a-Z94 has nothing to do with CWC. Z94 went through a very different evolution.
Furthermore, it seems that Judaism was also heavily influenced by ancient Zoroastrians.
jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/15283-zoroastrianism
Notice that the Mitanni were not 'Zoroastrians'. They were like early Medes 'Magi'. Zoroastrians came later after the Mitanni and Judaism was even highly influenced by the Zoroastrians from Iran. There is a DNA of ancient Zoroastrians.
Garden of Eden, the tree of life, all of these stories are from the Mesopotamia. Also, [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]the hometown of Abraham is Urfa or 'Ur Kasdim' in Mesopotamia
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Thank you for all your information, which helps with my research.
I don't think any Aryans could have been Z94 and not Z93, as Z94 is simply one of the branches of Z93.
Yes, Z94 in Aryans and Z283 in Corded Ware would have gone through different evolutions, although from a very recent common starting point. Corded Ware, however, was not limited to Z283. And Z94 had to have evolved differently from other Corded Ware populations, as yfull estimates that it only came into existence in 2,200 BC (after Corded Ware had ended). My own date estimate for it, using different methodology, is almost identical.
Yes, Asian R1a is different from R1a in Corded Ware, but only because it had admixed with other populations after having left Corded Ware. While the Asian R1a was in Sintashta, before it had spread into Asia, it was autosomally very similar to Corded Ware.
I do not want to get into theology, nor to dispute that the Jewish religion developed from Mesopotamia or the Hurrians. Although, as far as I am aware, the date for the earliest source of the Mesopotamian creation stories is 2,000 BC, so we cannot even be sure that they preceded the arrival of Z93 into Asia.
The predominant Corded Ware haplogroup was R1a-M417 and its population included men who were M417xZ283. Z94 is also a branch of M417. If we look at the M417 today that is neither Z283 nor Z93/Z94, it is found almost exclusively in the Corded Ware zone.
Yes, I'm sure CW people would have had an influence on the Germanic language, but I'm not aware of any evidence that they all spoke the same proto-Germanic at that time.
Yes, Aryan is not really a very helpful word, as it postcedes Corded Ware. Z283 is a branch of the M417 population that remained in the Corded Ware zone, and Z93 is a component of the same population that formed the Aryans several centuries later.
The single male ancestor of all Z283 and Z93 people was around in approximately 3,000 BC. Where do you think he lived, if not in Corded Ware (that arose in 2,900 BC)?
MOESAN
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I 'll try to be clear if I can.
I 'm not defending the Pip's thesis, I just try to weight some arguments. NO, being part of the autosomal basis of a pop DOES NOT imply an heavy part in the making of this new pop's language (here, Germanic), nor it exclude it completely. SO, the connexions between unkown but supposed language of CWC with the proto-Indo-Arian is not proved or disproved.
But Z93 and Z283 branched off around 3800 BC according to some sources, so a simple shift from CWC to Sintashta seems excluded, spite strong links at the autosomal level, all that does not prove they did not share an heavy common ancestry. But the EEF in Sintashta can being come from a common donor (Ukraine?) but not by force through CWC origin. And there is still a long way to go to Mitanni (not to Tipperary LOL). I don't give my opinion otherwise because I lack detailed date for this very question of Levites. Sorry.
My provisional view is that Z93 was an offshoot from most likely Southern Polish/NW Ukrainian Corded Ware that for the most part migrated eastwards across the Steppe towards the Caspian Sea on Corded Ware's demise.
Its branching suggests it was quickly successful there - within a few hundred years, it looks like its Z2124 branch had spread into Sintashta in the North and Azerbaijan/Iran/Iraq in the South. Due to its success in a relatively short space of time, I would suggest its bearers probably retained much of the mindset and lifestyles that its ancestors had before migrating eastwards.
My estimates (based on fairly limited data) are that Z2124 had already branched apart in Iraq and adjoining areas by 2,000 BC; and that further branching arising from this Iraqi point of origin (including the Levite yDNA CTS6) was already taking place in the Levant region by approximately 1,500 BC. It is interesting to me that this date corresponds with the rise of the Mitanni, and is not too far distant from the Hyksos migrations into Egypt.
My reading of limited autosomal data suggests that R1a was most likely not a core component of Levantine DNA much before this point, although it might have already been present in the Levant in an un-admixed population. By 1,000 BC or so, it had probably become admixed into the general Judaean population, although still formed very much a minority component (less than 10%) of it.
The R1a-CTS6 Levite population that exists today looks to have emerged fairly recently from a tiny bottleneck.
I would be interested to be notified of any data that suggests these estimates need to be revised.
Its branching suggests it was quickly successful there - within a few hundred years, it looks like its Z2124 branch had spread into Sintashta in the North and Azerbaijan/Iran/Iraq in the South. Due to its success in a relatively short space of time, I would suggest its bearers probably retained much of the mindset and lifestyles that its ancestors had before migrating eastwards.
My estimates (based on fairly limited data) are that Z2124 had already branched apart in Iraq and adjoining areas by 2,000 BC; and that further branching arising from this Iraqi point of origin (including the Levite yDNA CTS6) was already taking place in the Levant region by approximately 1,500 BC. It is interesting to me that this date corresponds with the rise of the Mitanni, and is not too far distant from the Hyksos migrations into Egypt.
My reading of limited autosomal data suggests that R1a was most likely not a core component of Levantine DNA much before this point, although it might have already been present in the Levant in an un-admixed population. By 1,000 BC or so, it had probably become admixed into the general Judaean population, although still formed very much a minority component (less than 10%) of it.
The R1a-CTS6 Levite population that exists today looks to have emerged fairly recently from a tiny bottleneck.
I would be interested to be notified of any data that suggests these estimates need to be revised.
We cannot know the exact date for the Z93/Z283 split, but even if it were as early as 3,800 BC, it would still show a relatively recent common point of origin.
I too see the EEF in Sintashta as coming from Ukraine, but from the far North West of it, where there was a significant Corded Ware influence. The data I have seen suggests that the EEF in Ukrainian Yamnaya was fairly minimal, and certainly insufficient to contribute the amount present in Sintashta.
It may be a longish way (estimated 800 years) from the end of Corded Ware to the height of the Mitanni, but if you think of a small fleeing offshoot from a primitive Central European population relocating to the Levant via the Steppe, the Caspian and Iraq, and merely one small section of this building up into one of the largest Middle Eastern powers of its time, it is still quite a feat.
I like the Mitanni idea probably via Sintashta Iranian speakers (Indo-Iranian perhaps).
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Doesn't Sintashta-Petrovka and CW R1a clades ultimately derive from an earlier M417 clade and probably have a common origin in the same Pontic-Caspian to North/Northeast Europe (and later back to the steppes) expansion?
True, Corded Ware was not limited to Z283. And there are no other haplogroups in Asia that would come from CWC. That's why it is not logical that Z93 came from CWC.
Z93 predate CWC culture, this leads toward an assuption that Z93 was not derived from CWC. It is in conflict with chronology.
The split of Z93 from M417 took place around 3800 BCE. It was much earlier than CWC and it was even before Yamnaya.
CWC was similar to Yamnaya. It was derived from it. Sintashta's R1a was in that region before CWC. What we know for sure is that R1a-Z93 in Sintashta was older than CWC.
All the Steppes region was autosomally similar to each other. Even before Z283 and Z93 split.
Sumerian creation stories are very old. Epic of Gilgamesh is at least as old as the earliest Sumerian writings
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I do agree with you. There there was no shift from CWC to Sintashta. Z93 is at least from 3800 BC and it predates CWC.
There is no evidence that EEF in Sintashta is of CWC origin. EEF (Anatolian from ancient Armenia) in Sintashta could be from southcentral Asia, can be even from BMAC culture.
Mitanni 'Aryans' were very different from Sintashta. The distance and a gap in space between Mitanni Culture and Sintashta doesn't feed the theory at all that both cultures are related to each other. Mitanni Kingdom is located in a very different area than a Sintashta Culure. Why would they travel that far at the first place? And even culturally they were not really similar to each other.
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