Teaser: EEF was 90% Anatolian

Angela said:

This is part of the reason I've been saying for so long that the "farmer" population was probably homogeneous for a very long time. It may have all radiated out from somewhere around southeastern Anatolia.

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Are you saying Kumtepe Anatolian is continuation of homogeneous EEFs? But there was Caucasus(Teal?)l in the 6700 BP Anatolian.. This abstract is saying a new people moved into Anatolia after EEF's ancestors left. They were of the same distant Near Eastern-stock but still differnt. That's my interpretation at least.

Fire Haired14 said:

There's no mention of R1a-Z93 in Yamnaya or CT. There's mention of R1a in Srubnaya period and "Bronze age" R1a-Z93 in Samara. Srubnaya is 1800-1200 BC so younger than Sintashta and Corded Ware.

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This tweet I mean

Yamnaya/poltavka went from R1b to R1a in the Srubnaya period. z93 group found on bronze age steppe samara

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Fire Haired14 said:

Are you saying Kumtepe Anatolian is continuation of homogeneous EEFs? But there was Caucasus(Teal?)l in the 6700 BP Anatolian.. This abstract is saying a new people moved into Anatolia after EEF's ancestors left. They were of the same distant Near Eastern-stock but still differnt. That's my interpretation at least.

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6700 BP is around mid-late Neolithic. By that time the EEF group must have mixed with ANE groups from the Iranian Plateau, Caucasus and further east. forming the teal farmers.

Angela said:

Guys, from a Dienekes post on the Allentoft et al paper:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/06/into-out-of-and-across-eurasian-steppe.html

"The third conclusion is that the later steppe cultures of the Sintashta and Andronovo (putative Indo-Iranians according to some), were not a continuation of the Yamnaya-Afanasievo people, but had extra Neolithic farmer ancestry. So, it seems that Neolithic farmers entered the steppe, and the development of steppe cultures did not happen in isolation. Whether this involved migration of Corded Ware people (as the authors prefer), who were already a mixture of Yamnaya and Neolithic farmers, or some other mixture of Neolithic farmers with steppe populations (e.g., Tripolye plus Yamnaya) remains to be seen."

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From the tweets it doesn't sound like Sintashta is Corded Ware derived, but both are derived from the same source.

Fire Haired14 said:

Are you saying Kumtepe Anatolian is continuation of homogeneous EEFs? But there was Caucasus(Teal?)l in the 6700 BP Anatolian.. This abstract is saying a new people moved into Anatolia after EEF's ancestors left. They were of the same distant Near Eastern-stock but still differnt. That's my interpretation at least.

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No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that this has to do with ANATOLIA relatively early, i.e. 4700 BC. COULD movements from this area have continued to feed into Europe? Possibly, maybe even probably*, but there is no proof in this abstract or study. That's all I mean.

There's way too much speculation on the internet being proposed as certainty and not enough waiting for ancient dna.

*I've actually suggested before that perhaps a mid-to-late Neolithic flow of slightly different farmers might be responsible for the J2 and E-V13 in Sopot and Lengyel. The samples are dated to, coincidentally, 4700 BC.
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf

If you look at the graphics in the paper you'll see that their influence spread throughout Europe.

The flow of similar populations into Europe in the Bronze, Iron or Imperial periods and their extent is still to be determined.

Angela said:

No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that this has to do with ANATOLIA relatively early, i.e. 4700 BC. COULD movements from this area have continued to feed into Europe? Possibly, maybe even probably*, but there is no proof in this abstract or study. That's all I mean.

There's way too much speculation on the internet being proposed as certainty and not enough waiting for ancient dna.

*I've actually suggested before that perhaps a mid-to-late Neolithic flow of slightly different farmers might be responsible for the J2 and E-V13 in Sopot and Lengyel. The samples are dated to, coincidentally, 4700 BC.
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf

If you look at the graphics in the paper you'll see that their influence spread throughout Europe.

The flow of similar populations into Europe in the Bronze, Iron or Imperial periods and their extent is still to be determined.

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Exactly, thats also what I proposed. A mid-late Neolithic expansion of J2 with a different type of farmers, (probably now Teal admixed).

Alan said:

So as expected, I is not really a Haplogroup taken by WHG groups but always a local part of the EEF.

As I proposed in the past, I think Haplogroup "I" was once a relatively frequent Haplogroup from Iran all the way into Europe.

Oh an those Samara (R1b?) also had 25% "Teal like". Nice seems the Teal wives theory is dying a slow death.

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Well, it will be important to see the specific "I" clades present in Neolithic Anatolia and their frequency. After all, there was I2a in the WHG of Europe, and the farmers picked up 10% initially and what, another perhaps 10-15% in the subsequent millennia. (Hopefully Lazaridis will give some clues about this.)Unless we're going to posit it was all female WHG flow.

I don't know what to make of this slow drip of "Armenian like" genes into these steppe people over such a long period of time. I mean it starts 5200 BC all the way to 3000 BC. Are we supposed to think that even hunter-gatherers all the way up in Samara wanted Armenian wives so badly that they traveled all the way to the Caucasus or south Caucasus to get them? Or that there was some sort of long distance trade network in them? What could hunter-gatherers have given for them? Isn't it very unusual also for the woman's culture to come to predominate?

Honestly, I'm stumped. Is it possible these mtDna lineages from the Near East had some sort of selective advantage? More fertility? H has more resistance to sepsis, doesn't it?

As for the J2, I'm presuming they didn't have ANE in 7000 BC, since Lazaridis said they're homogeneous. It had arrived by 4700 BC perhaps. Maybe there was more J2 to the east, and those J2 received the ANE and then more of them moved west? Or maybe the Neolithic J2 were J2b, and the ANE admixed farmers were J2a?

I wonder when the pre-print will go up. They might wait until after it's presented at the conference next week.

Angela said:

Unless we're going to posit it was all female WHG flow.

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Actually, HG haplogroups of Y-DNA are quite strong in modern Europe, even though HG autosomal ancestry is less so. By contrast EEF ancestry is higher autosomally, but they were 60% G2a in terms of Y-DNA, and most of this is gone in modern Europe (only Georgia has such a level of G2a).

Angela said:

Well, it will be important to see the specific "I" clades present in Neolithic Anatolia and their frequency.

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So far there is no evidence that any clades of I were present in Anatolia. Hunter-Gatherers in Anatolia could have different Y-DNA haplogroups. All haplogroups were eventually carried by various groups of HGs (unless these haplogroups are younger than the emergence of agriculture).

Goodness, I forgot! No E-V13 or E-M78. Either it hadn't arrived yet, or it (or it's precursor) was already in Europe. So maybe the Natufian was G2?

Of course, the equivalent of E-V13 was with J2 in Sopot by 4700 BC. I wonder if the Kuntepe people were also different in having not only ANE but maybe a bit of Nilotic flow or something.

What would really be a kick is if it turned out to be Mesolithic and beat all the other ylineages except I and C to Europe. That would be one for Maciamo.

Angela said:

From the Lazaridis presentation thanks to Razib Khan's tweets:

EEF were homogeneous


Common source of EEF was Anatolia based on archaeology.


mtDNA similar to EEF. Y mostly G2a2. They also had J2 H and I at low frequency, and some C1 too

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Anatolia is shaping up as hunter-gatherer refuge during LGM. If not a true refuge than easily accessible continuity with Balkans and Europe in general. Thanks to a land bridge through dry Bosporus, before Black Sea flood.

Anatolian neolithic is close to EEF on pca, but EEF shifted toward WHG

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This is what we expected. The farther farmers went into Europe the more their mixed with "fresh" WHGs. This also confirms that mixing of farmers with WHG was quite limited, as genetic and cultural differences would imply, and also seen by observation of recent history, like colonization of America and Australia.

Anatolian neolithic is different from modern Anatolian and SE europe populations.

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Any numbers on how different, 25% of replacement or even as much as 50%?

Indo-european steppe = EHG + near eastern. New data shows Eneolithic samara was 75% EHG ancestry plus 25% "armenian" 5,200 to 4,000 BCE

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Any clarification if this Armenian like is from WHG/ANE side or ENF? To see 50% of Armenian like was a bit "shocking" in still HG/herders societies. 25% is more like it, and possibly half of it being WHG/ANE admixture.

Poltavka people 3000 to 2200 BC basically like Yamnaya, 50% EHG and 50% armenian-like.

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I hope we will see more defined "Armenian like" finally. How much EEF/ENF?

Srubnaya was different... 2/3 yamnaya 1/3 middle neolithic European

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Some people suggest it was a beginning of Scythian/Sarmatian culture. I'm reading a discovery of z93 there, right? I believe Z93 pushed R1b from East to the West.

Yamnaya/poltavka went from R1b to R1a in the Srubnaya period. z93 group found on bronze age steppe samara

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Now it will be great to figure out where these R1b went to! Western and South Europe? Some through Caucasus into Anatolia? I don't mean the first or even even second wave of R1b into Europe. I'm implying entrance of Celts, Mycenaeans and Hittites at this time period. The last remaining R1b of the Steppe.

There was back migration of EEF to the steppe after the initial yamnaya migration. (This one I don't get.)

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EEF were numerous, especially in warm climate times, times good for farming. They were the once mostly creating demographic pressure on surrounding populations. When the steppe was warmer and wetter we could expect stronger invasion of farmers. Possibly after initial Yamnaya migration the time was perfect for farming.

Alan said:

Another thing, R1a z93 found in Yamna,

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Yamnaya horizon is huge. What part of Yamnaya were the Z93 from?

a

nd going by the tweets it seems like from an EEF(Neolithic) culture (Most likely Cucuteni-tripolye).

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Cucuteni had influence in West of Yamnaya. I'm expecting Maykop farmers influence in the East. Both carried extensive EEF/ENF admixture.

Those guys seem to be the ancestors of both Sintashta and Corded Ware. As some people have speculated Corded Ware isn't the ancestor of Sintashta but both derive from the same source.

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One cultural source yes, but geographically they were separated into few groups. Otherwise we would have same R1a and R1b subclades in all IE cultures, but we don't. I'm still baffled with this one big IE culture of unmixed populations. How did they pull it off, lol.

Alan said:

Exactly, thats also what I proposed. A mid-late Neolithic expansion of J2 with a different type of farmers, (probably now Teal admixed).

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Very possible, I always thought about them as pottery or copper age expansion. One of the important technology period.

Tomenable said:

Actually, HG haplogroups of Y-DNA are quite strong in modern Europe, even though HG autosomal ancestry is less so. By contrast EEF ancestry is higher autosomally, but they were 60% G2a in terms of Y-DNA, and most of this is gone in modern Europe (only Georgia has such a level of G2a).

So far there is no evidence that any clades of I were present in Anatolia. Hunter-Gatherers in Anatolia could have different Y-DNA haplogroups. All haplogroups were eventually carried by various groups of HGs (unless these haplogroups are younger than the emergence of agriculture).

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I'm not following you.Unless Razib Khan misheard, there was indeed yDna I present in the Anatolian Neolithic 7000 BC. If they were the same I2a as some of the I2a in the Neolithic communities in Europe then Alan is saying it could have been carried into Europe with the farmers. I'm saying we can't know that until we get the subclade information.

@LeBrok
Razib seems to indicate that the yDna "I" and "C" were minority lineages among these people. For Anatolia to be an LGM refuge for WHG wouldn't we have to have G2a or perhaps H in Europe in the Mesolithic as well as I and C? (Not that I don't think that's possible at least in terms of the Greek islands etc. There was that intriguing study showing the Mesolithic mtDna in that area was very "Near Eastern" farmer like already. Boattini et al also found that one cluster of G2a in Italy is very old.") Of course, he may have misheard. The paper will tell us.

As to the early HG days on the steppe, it does seem like 25% "Armenian-like". It apparently reached the 50% level only later. I don't know how much of it was ANE. I've seen internet estimates of maybe 20%? From the things Patterson has said, I think the WHG was minimal.

I think you're right: I think that Yamnaya R1b moved elsewhere, perhaps some down through the Caucasus, maybe some into southern Europe (the Mycenaens) having picked up more "farmer" along the way. I think the "Celts" were earlier, perhaps?

Angela said:

I don't know what to make of this slow drip of "Armenian like" genes into these steppe people over such a long period of time.

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This is because crops didn't grow well in the Steppe and forested northern area. From now on there was more like a steady trickle of farmer genome into population of steppe and forest, mostly when times were good for farming in the steppe. EEF steadily grew in Steppe over millennia of contact. This is how I see it.

I think yDNA, I, J2(b?)and C1 in this Anatolian samples, might represent the "WHG " like ancestry in EEF.

We know that C, I is connected to WHG/UHG like ancestry. J2b? as close cousin to I and K possibly too.

LeBrok said:

This is because crops didn't grow well in the Steppe and forested northern area. From now on there was more like a steady trickle of farmer genome into population of steppe and forest, mostly when times were good for farming in the steppe. EEF steadily grew in Steppe over millennia of contact. This is how I see it.

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Yes, that makes sense, but only through female gene flow?

Angela said:

Goodness, I forgot! No E-V13 or E-M78. Either it hadn't arrived yet, or it (or it's precursor) was already in Europe. So maybe the Natufian was G2?

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All signs point to Natufians being G2. At least I got used to this idea, from my initial E hg guess.

Angela said:

Yes, that makes sense, but only through female gene flow?

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In Samara samples yes. We'll see what samples from other communities tell us.

Angela said:

Razib seems to indicate that the yDna "I" and "C" were minority lineages among these people. For Anatolia to be an LGM refuge for WHG wouldn't we have to have G2a or perhaps H in Europe in the Mesolithic as well as I and C? (Not that I don't think that's possible at least in terms of the Greek islands etc. There was that intriguing study showing the Mesolithic mtDna in that area was very "Near Eastern" farmer like already. Boattini et al also found that one cluster of G2a in Italy is very old.") Of course, he may have misheard. The paper will tell us.

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We can suppose that WHG from Anatolian refuge had spread into Europe few thousands of years earlier, when LGM was gone around 18 to 12kya, before farmers G2a colonized Western Anatolia at 12-10kya.

LeBrok said:

In Samara samples yes. We'll see what samples from other communities tell us.

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It's late so I'm not going to look it up but it's just occurred to me that there was no farming on the steppe of any kind in 5200 BC...not until much, much later. David Anthony thought it spread from Neolithic Europe and didn't go very far east, so now I'm not so sure this explains it.