What kind of people run business?

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oriental

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The bankers that caused all the historical crashes and the most recent economic crisis, are they gifted? They certainly are with MONEY. The question is - Are they good people? They would probably be psychopaths.
 
oriental said:
The bankers that caused all the historical crashes and the most recent economic crisis, are they gifted? They certainly are with MONEY. The question is - Are they good people? They would probably be psychopaths.
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Psychopaths?.... Oriental. :)
 
Psychopaths doesn't mean criminal just a lack of emotional empathy for society or others due to the small size of the amygdala a tiny organ in the middle of the brain that controls memory and emotions. Many criminals are psychopaths and also 25% of business executives are psychopaths. In the case of the bankers who caused the crashes are also criminals but their influence and political clout provides them cover. Did you go to my thread on US and European economic crisis on Eupedia?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/sep/01/psychopath-workplace-jobs-study
 
oriental said:
Psychopaths doesn't mean criminal just a lack of emotional empathy for society or others due to the small size of the amygdala a tiny organ in the middle of the brain that controls memory and emotions. Many criminals are psychopaths and also 25% of business executives are psychopaths. In the case of the bankers who caused the crashes are also criminals but their influence and political clout provides them cover. Did you go to my thread on US and European economic crisis on Eupedia?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/sep/01/psychopath-workplace-jobs-study
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No, I hadn`t seen that post Oriental.
I`m not questioning your opinion, I was in fact interested regarding your opinion.

I recall reading that brain scans on some with high levels of unemotional or callous traits showed a reduced response of the amygdala to threat. Likewise some who showed over fear to insignificant things had a high amygdala response recorded.
Certainly, many in power show some traits of the psychopath. However I don`t really think all these are such. Of course "capitalism" is a spring board for many of this type. I`m not sure if capitalism triggers their traits or is the outlet for the already established traits.
 
Psychopaths are like human robots. They are good at tasks without emotions, remorse or consequences. Robots are good and are used for production.
Capitalism doesn't trigger these psychopathic traits but rather it attracts intelligent psychopaths to these highly rewarding jobs. The politicians are are their representatives through election funding and lobbyists. Don't you see the pattern since the 80s from Ronald Reagan's presidency? The gap between rich and poor is increasing throughout the world. "Deregulation", taxpayers organizations, etc. are just fronts for the psychopathic elite. They lobby for corporate welfare but against public health, maternity leave, babysitting centers, etc. They are almost following Hitler's programs of getting rid of mentally ill people and the disabled. Whereas Hitler had them killed, the right wing politicians are letting them onto the streets to fend for themselves. Many crimes are committed by mentally disturbed people off medication who can't afford the medicine and out on the streets.
 
Here is a gifted Welsh unemployed fisherman:

 
oriental said:
Psychopaths are like human robots. They are good at tasks without emotions, remorse or consequences.
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Psychopaths like hurting people, robots don't care.

Robots are good and are used for production.
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So are blue collar workers. Do you think they are robots too?

Capitalism doesn't trigger these psychopathic traits but rather it attracts intelligent psychopaths to these highly rewarding jobs.
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Capitalism also rewards and attracts all hard working people. Socialism rewards all the people equally. Usually everybody has nothing, but the ruling party members.


The politicians are are their representatives through election funding and lobbyists. Don't you see the pattern since the 80s from Ronald Reagan's presidency? The gap between rich and poor is increasing throughout the world.
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This is easily explain by mathematics of growing GDP in the world. When production is great (in capitalism) there is more money to make from decade to decade. There is ever growing chance of more gdp collected in one's hands, but some poor has always 0 dollars.
Isn't capitalism the force behind rising middle class in China? Hundreds of millions of people escaped poverty into being middle class! ...but all you can see is the growing gap?!
It is worth mentioning, that today's poor who can't make money by themselves are given big help from society in housing, food and other services. All poor in capitalistic countries are way better off than poor in non-capitalistic countries like Egypt or Cuba, where people have to survive on as little as 1 dollar a day. This is a reason why some emigrants come to Europe or America just to live on social services, or for Health Care.
Did you observed poor from capitalistic countries emigrating to live in Zimbabwe or North Korea for example?
Oriental, what country would fit your political and economic orientation the best?


"Deregulation", taxpayers organizations, etc. are just fronts for the psychopathic elite. They lobby for corporate welfare but against public health, maternity leave, babysitting centers, etc. They are almost following Hitler's programs of getting rid of mentally ill people and the disabled. Whereas Hitler had them killed, the right wing politicians are letting them onto the streets to fend for themselves..
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Oriental, stop this unsubstantiated bullshit. To compare whomever you don't like to Hitler and his tactics is utterly wrong, and actually might be deemed psychopathic. You still owe us an explanation where the bankers stashed their quadrillions of dollars, according to your calculations.
 
oriental said:
Psychopaths doesn't mean criminal just a lack of emotional empathy for society or others due to the small size of the amygdala a tiny organ in the middle of the brain that controls memory and emotions. Many criminals are psychopaths and also 25% of business executives are psychopaths. In the case of the bankers who caused the crashes are also criminals but their influence and political clout provides them cover. Did you go to my thread on US and European economic crisis on Eupedia?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/sep/01/psychopath-workplace-jobs-study
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One in 25 business leaders may be a psychopath
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You just wanted this to be true, didn't you.
 
oriental said:
Psychopaths doesn't mean criminal just a lack of emotional empathy for society or others due to the small size of the amygdala a tiny organ in the middle of the brain that controls memory and emotions.
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What you say is very popular and is shared by most experts. But let me add some questioning remarks and food for thought:
Psychopaths do not lack so much empathy, they lack morals (honour, responsibility, remorse, sense of justice, ...). One strong evidence for this is that autistic people (those who have low empathy) were shown to have a slightly lower crime rate. If you explain to an autist that a fellow is suffering, then he will be usually more concerned about the fellow's wellbeing, because the autist relies more on universal reason instead of selective empathy. Empathy shows one the strengths and weaknesses of fellow humans but one can use this information for doing good and bad. I dare to claim that empathy helps psychopaths to be manipulative, charismatic and successful (they know how to gather social reward, autists don't know). Also I think that even sadism is senseless without empathy, because the lust of other's pain can not be experienced. Empathy can also cause paradox effects like feeling disgust against suffering people. The problem of Psychopaths is not lack of empathy, imho. Kantian imperative - is it empathy or reason?

Many criminals are psychopaths and also 25% of business executives are psychopaths. In the case of the bankers who caused the crashes are also criminals but their influence and political clout provides them cover. Did you go to my thread on US and European economic crisis on Eupedia?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/sep/01/psychopath-workplace-jobs-study
Click to expand...
 
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http://www.nowandfutures.com/large/ImplicationsOfCorporatePsychopaths%28boddy%29.pdf

This is a very good analysis of psychopaths in business. Only 1% of the general population are psychopaths but as one goes up the ladder the psychopaths increase in numbers for it is an environment favorable to their mode of operation.

Of course, the size of the amygdala is variable so people will have different ranges in the emotional repertoir. The most basic would be fear and anger which is animalistic. This is the 'fight or run' response. This is survival at its most basic level and suited in an emergency situation. In a peaceful situation other emotions might come into play like love, fellowship and sharing. It is possible that a tribe or a society that was always threatened may have a surplus of psychopaths as they are constantly in a fight or flight survival mode thus their culture might be all about revenge (anger) and being victimized (fear). Then the response would be storage of necessities (food, wealth, land, sanctuaries, law, justice, etc.) as a defensive measure.

The intelligent psychopaths would do anything to gather wealth (white collar crime via banks) while the less intelligent psychopaths may go into crime to steal wealth (blue collar). It is very possible that psychopaths would not obey moral codes as the codes are meant for the society as a whole and meaningless to someone who has no empathy for others.
 
I guess you didn't notice, but they really bent and simplified their definition of psychopath.

Hare’s original checklist for criminal psychopathy is summarised below for
reference:
Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Need for excitement
Pathological lying
Conning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect (emotion)
Callous/lack of empathy
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioural control
Promiscuous sexual behaviour
Early behavioural problems
Lack of realistic long term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Failure to accept responsibility for actions
Many short term marital relationships
Juvenile delinquency
Revocation of conditional release
Criminal versatility

As you can see, psychopaths are very emotional creatures. It is probably true that among upper management there are lots of logical, smart but not very emotional people. Having lesser emotional state they are not visibly compassionate, but why they need to be psychopaths at the same time? I think your hate to business community blinds you, you either brand them natzy or psychopaths.
Can you name one thing in your possession which wasn't made by a business?
 
oriental said:
http://www.nowandfutures.com/large/ImplicationsOfCorporatePsychopaths%28boddy%29.pdf

This is a very good analysis of psychopaths in business. Only 1% of the general population are psychopaths but as one goes up the ladder the psychopaths increase in numbers for it is an environment favorable to their mode of operation.

Of course, the size of the amygdala is variable so people will have different ranges in the emotional repertoir. The most basic would be fear and anger which is animalistic. This is the 'fight or run' response. This is survival at its most basic level and suited in an emergency situation. In a peaceful situation other emotions might come into play like love, fellowship and sharing. It is possible that a tribe or a society that was always threatened may have a surplus of psychopaths as they are constantly in a fight or flight survival mode thus their culture might be all about revenge (anger) and being victimized (fear). Then the response would be storage of necessities (food, wealth, land, sanctuaries, law, justice, etc.) as a defensive measure.

The intelligent psychopaths would do anything to gather wealth (white collar crime via banks) while the less intelligent psychopaths may go into crime to steal wealth (blue collar). It is very possible that psychopaths would not obey moral codes as the codes are meant for the society as a whole and meaningless to someone who has no empathy for others.
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Okay Oriental, well I did not expect that.

I have not read many of the reports concerning "Buisiness Psychopaths", although I have noticed a few. It almost seems to be the latest trend, IMO.
The trouble I have with them is the abundance of theory against lack of actual and physical tests. You see I feel we cannot simply pick certain traits and apply them to certain people and thus label them "psychopaths". As I said in a previous post, some in power may seem to have some traits associated with psychopaths BUT I don`t think they are such. [have any of these so called buisiness or political figures been clinically tested or diagnosed?]
Also it must be noted that there is more to identifying a psychopath than simply relying on traits [ albeit they can be an early sign] There is more going on in the brain of a psychopath besides the amygdala. Tests have shown different reactions and structural and functional differences in the brains of psychopaths against non-psychopaths..hippocampus, striatum, the frontal and central cortex etc etc.
That a person has been very successful in the world of buisiness cannot be seen as the result of being a psychopath Oriental. Let us not forget in some cases plain greed or egotism could be involved. Against this good education, ambition, hard work, a good idea and some luck could also be involved.
The problem with all this [psychopath idea] is, on this basis one could "see" psychopaths everywhere.
 
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oriental said:
It is very possible that psychopaths would not obey moral codes as the codes are meant for the society as a whole and meaningless to someone who has no empathy for others.
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No. Moral codes and empathy are completely different things. Moral codes emerge exactly when empathy is replaced by reason and self-worth (honour or sense of justice). The glorification of empathy nowadays is a hype. Empathy is a basic sense to gain information about reality, but it says not much about good or bad intentions! Kantian Imperative is a prominent example of a non-empathic moral. It is the logic consequence from understanding and generalizing the tit-for-tat principle. Game theory shows clearly how quickly strong moral codes emerge merely by the force of necessity and absolutely without any empathy.
Psychopaths think they are different than other humans, thus they think the moral codes do not apply for them. That's the main problem. But autistics are usually very different. But both have no empathy? How can lack of empathy be the single cause for two contradictory effects?
 
LeBrok said:
I guess you didn't notice, but they really bent and simplified their definition of psychopath.

Hare’s original checklist for criminal psychopathy is summarised below for
reference:
Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Need for excitement
Pathological lying
Conning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect (emotion)
Callous/lack of empathy
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioural control
Promiscuous sexual behaviour
Early behavioural problems
Lack of realistic long term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Failure to accept responsibility for actions
Many short term marital relationships
Juvenile delinquency
Revocation of conditional release
Criminal versatility
Click to expand...

Thanks for bringing up this list. It's mere length shows how wrong it is to boil everything down to just lack of empathy. But many items can be traced to a lack of sense for guilt. This can be explained by grandiose self-worth, because guilt is basically the experience of self-worth reduction. If self-worth is very high, then worth-loss is less painful. But this is where I partially agree with oriental: Richness improves self-worth and thus increases immunity against feelings of guilt. The anti-social attitude of many rich or mighty individuals has been reported thoughout history. That's because the necessity of following the moral codes reduces with wealth and power, because the lower risk of persecution sneaks into the mind. Most people are eating meat, not because they have no empathy, but because they have no fear of persecution. What people easily call empathy is often no true neurological empathy but a result of various other factors. Empathy is way too insufficient to maintain moral codes.
 
ElHorsto said:
Thanks for bringing up this list. It's mere length shows how wrong it is to boil everything down to just lack of empathy. But many items can be traced to a lack of sense for guilt. This can be explained by grandiose self-worth, because guilt is basically the experience of self-worth reduction. If self-worth is very high, then worth-loss is less painful. But this is where I partially agree with oriental: Richness improves self-worth and thus increases immunity against feelings of guilt. The anti-social attitude of many rich or mighty individuals has been reported thoughout history. That's because the necessity of following the moral codes reduces with wealth and power, because the lower risk of persecution sneaks into the mind. Most people are eating meat, not because they have no empathy, but because they have no fear of persecution. What people easily call empathy is often no true neurological empathy but a result of various other factors. Empathy is way too insufficient to maintain moral codes.
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No doubt there are ruffles and psychopathic people in business too, but in no bigger degree than in most other occupations. Take Bill Gates for example. During his career he was sneaky and rufless, especially to his competitors. In rest of his life he turned to be very compassionate and currently is saving millions people every year in Africa.
Maybe to run business one need to act tougher. After all businesses exist in environment of high competition, similar to natural selection and survival of the fittest.

Most people are eating meat, not because they have no empathy, but because they have no fear of persecution
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Not really. Most people eat meat because meat tastes sooooo good. Millions of years of evolution wired our brains to make us feel pleasure when eating meat. Obviously a highly beneficial aspect of our diet, energy and nutrients intake.
 
LeBrok said:
No doubt there are ruffles and psychopathic people in business too, but in no bigger degree than in most other occupations. Take Bill Gates for example. During his career he was sneaky and rufless, especially to his competitors. In rest of his life he turned to be very compassionate and currently is saving millions people every year in Africa.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but there is also a kind of moral code to show certain social responsibility, because the rich are more threatened by accusations of not being socially rewarding (regardless whether justified or not).

Not really. Most people eat meat because meat tastes sooooo good. Millions of years of evolution wired our brains to make us feel pleasure when eating meat. Obviously a highly beneficial aspect of our diet, energy and nutrients intake.
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I doubt that animals enjoy less empathy because of their tastyness :). Anyway, my point was to show how empathy is more influenced by the actual moral code, than moral codes are influenced by empathy. Because it is annoying how the mainstream nowadays uses empathy as synonym for morale. This is very wrong and dangerous. The brainwashing starts with the choice of words.
Empathy is actually very selective and arbitrary: Romans and greeks treated slaves much worse because they were considered different enough to not enjoy the same moral code as normal roman citizens. For the same reasons most of us eat animals. Wars and atrocities were possible because of moral justifications, not despite of moral. In all these cases empathy was no obstacle at all, it was even used as excuse ("they slaughtered our children!").
 
Many people in the financial world and politics today would be common criminals if they weren't
functioning in a privileged environment. Now-a-days, society is creating an abundance of sociopaths and psychopaths, IMO.
Show's how much we have deteriorated.
 
Many people in the financial world and politics today would be common criminals if they weren't
functioning in a privileged environment.
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Let us look at the difference between a 'right' and a 'privilege'. A right is something you are born with such as a 'right' to life. A privilege is not a right. Driving a car is a privilege. What it entails is that you know how to drive and obey the traffic rules and signs. There is condition attached to a privilege. It requires a 'duty'. If you drive recklessly you could kill someone or yourself and possibly do a great deal of damage and thus arrested or buried.

The 'privileged' class derived their privileges because the original guy deserved it. He could be a hero or a leader and thus became king. The first few generations knew their 'duties' of being privileged. As time went by their offsprings born into privilege begins assuming their privileges were their rights. That is where the trouble begins. The Divine Right to Rule! It really is a privilege given by the people to the first king but the descendants abused that is why there are very few kings around and those that still exist have their wings clipped.
 
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