Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

^^I am getting beyond tired of this Serb/Albanian war. Didn't you guys have enough of this twenty-five years ago?

None of the above post has anything to do with the topic of this thread. The topic is the Pelasgians, or by a reasonable extension, E-V13. All the twisting and turning by the Serb members, even to trying to bring up Cruciani et al 2007, when Cruciani is an author of the present study, is not going to make E-V13 a "foreign" y dna lineage in the Balkans. It would have been intellectually honest and gracious to admit you were wrong about that.

All of you also keep conflating and confusing ydna lineages, autosomal dna and language. You can't understand population genetics and the ethnogenesis of any people until you stop doing that.

We don't know the yDna line of this Vinca sample. Probably there was I2a among them. At the time the sample lived, he was a Neolithic farmer. Some I2a moved to the steppe perhaps, where the autosomal signature might have changed when they became steppe dwellers. The I2a people who lived either in the steppe or in more northern parts of Europe and who might have been picked up in the "Slavic" migrations and then come to the Balkans would have been different yet.

So, you could have three yDna I2a men of related yDna lineages who were very different from one another autosomally as well as in terms of culture.

Nobody is saying that some of the I2a in the Balkans might not have been there continuously since the Mesolithic. The "Slavic" speaking people and the I2a they carried, if any, were not...they were late entrants into the Balkans.

I really can't put it any more simply than that. If you don't see it, you don't.

I must say that I find people's changing positions on these cultures rather extraordinary. The "Old Europe" cultures were all but called "wimpy", "weak" farming cultures with a too female oriented culture who were infinitely inferior to hunter gatherers and steppe people both. Now all of a sudden because they think they can make them look more "WHG" in calculators, they want to "claim" them and their culture.

Amazing.

If you want to pursue this with these kinds of lengthy expositions, please find an appropriate thread. This isn't it.
 
http://i.imgur.com/BHlVkQR.png

Its obvious Albanians are not descendant from those popular illirians mentioned by Roman sources with their illyrian wars, because all of them came from modern Croatia and BiH.
There is genetic continuity of west balkans, from 3000 BC, and of such people romans called Illiryans even today, and Albanians are not part of it.


Dalmat it is really hard to know for Illyrians as people migrated always throughout the time.

Maciamo notes that Terramare Culture (Italiy, Sicily, Sardinia) and Illyria at 4,000 ybp had a majority E-V13 followed by I2a, I2a2, G2a.

If this is correct than Albanians are part of this around 40% followed by Greeks and others who have high E-V13 (we are all mixed)
If this is correct than Illyrians with majority E-V13 came from the far south Greece/Peloponnese (8,000 ybp)
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml

Majority of serbs are in fact of what greeks called thracian and dacian ancestry, or specifically tribalians, and share similarity with bulgarians and romanians.

I wouldn't say all (majority) similar with Thracian Bulgarian and Romanian.....

Older to newer - (it does not imply say Greek/Albanian cause they didn't exist at those periods, it's just to base the current locations)
18% E-V13 coming from current locations of Greek/Albanian Speaking regions (6,000 ybp)
5% R1b coming from current Albanian speaking regions and Macedonia 5,000 ybp (check the thread above about R1b L23) (#364 post)
45% I2a1 coming from far Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania - Cucutemy/Trypillian culture Ukraine) 3,000 ybp - Majority
15% R1a coming from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania or current Poland) 3,000 ybp
5% J

Modern serbs, croats and bulgarians, as in balkan people are descendants of trako-illirians, and before that form cultures of Vučedol and Vinča.

Also (check Maciamo maps) - Vinca had a majrity E-V13 following by others at 6,000 ybp



Your source might also correlate with Maciamo maps - Tuscan, South Italy, Greek Albanian share the same groups

do you have the link of this study?

BHlVkQR.png
 
Dalmat it is really hard to know for Illyrians as people migrated always throughout the time.

Maciamo notes that Terramare Culture (Italiy, Sicily, Sardinia) and Illyria at 4,000 ybp had a majority E-V13 followed by I2a, I2a2, G2a.

If this is correct than Albanians are part of this around 40% followed by Greeks and others who have high E-V13 (we are all mixed)
If this is correct than Illyrians with majority E-V13 came from the far south Greece/Peloponnese (8,000 ybp)
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml



I wouldn't say all (majority) similar with Thracian Bulgarian and Romanian.....

Older to newer - (it does not imply say Greek/Albanian cause they didn't exist at those periods, it's just to base the current locations)
18% E-V13 coming from current locations of Greek/Albanian Speaking regions (6,000 ybp)
5% R1b coming from current Albanian speaking regions and Macedonia 5,000 ybp (check the thread above about R1b L23) (#364 post)
45% I2a1 coming from far Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania - Cucutemy/Trypillian culture Ukraine) 3,000 ybp - Majority
15% R1a coming from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania or current Poland) 3,000 ybp
5% J



Also (check Maciamo maps) - Vinca had a majrity E-V13 following by others at 6,000 ybp



Your source might also correlate with Maciamo maps - Tuscan, South Italy, Greek Albanian share the same groups

do you have the link of this study?

noUseForAname
Why you put Illyirans in this thread. What Illyrians have with Pelasgians? They have nothing, two completely different populations, different origin, in different times, in different locations.

Here is one opinion about Pelasgians, Calvin Evans, American author and historian:

The Pelasgians: The Black Original inhabitants of Ancient Greece


https://saggigga.wordpress.com/2014...black-original-inhabitants-of-ancient-greece/

...
What do you think about it?

This is for discussion. Lets all we members try to strictly hold thread.
 
Agree with Garrick..........pelasgians are not Illyrians, nothing to do with each other
 
The issue of the Pelasgians is a separate one. I don't often quote Wiki, but this happens to comport with what I have read before about the Pelasgians.

"The name Pelasgians (/pəˈlæzdʒiənz, -dʒənz, -ɡiənz/; Greek: Πελασγοί, Pelasgoí; singular: Πελασγός, Pelasgós) was used by some ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that either were the ancestors of the Greeks or preceded the Greeks in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".[1]In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of the Aegean Sea region and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.[2] This is not an exclusive meaning, but other senses require identification when meant. During the classical period, enclaves under that name survived in several locations of mainland Greece, Crete, and other regions of the Aegean. Populations identified as "Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as "barbaric", even though some ancient writers described the Pelasgians as Greeks. A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized. These parts generally fell within the ethnic domain that by the 5th century BC was attributed to those speakers of ancient Greek who were identified as Ionians."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

I'm the last one to say the ancient authors should be slavishly followed as to ethnography and geography, but in this case, they all seem to be in agreement as to the general area:

View attachment 7343

Is this proof that the "Pelasgians" were E-V13 pre Greeks? No it doesn't. We will have to wait for ancient Greek samples from before the time of the steppe migrations, but even then, I don't know if the issue can be settled, because we don't have specific cultural artifacts, burials, etc. that we can definitely label as "Pelasgian". We will get an idea, however, as to whether E-V13 was already in Greece and the areas north of it before the steppe people came.

My hunch based on all these studies is yes, it was, but regardless of whether it was there before the first steppe incursions or with Bronze Age migrations, it's crystal clear that it was there before the "Slavs" came anywhere near the Balkans.

Great summary Angela and it brings back the subject BANG to its tracks. Sometimes I wonder why so many hisotrians refer to the Pelasgians as mysterious or similar descriptions. There is lots of smoke but we dont know what kind of fire, but from the smoke we can often associate what kind of fire is burning.

We have lots of references and indications that the


  • Pelasgians were pre Hellenistic.
  • We also have have indications that they were associated with the Peloponnese (but separate to the Mycenaes) and spoke a barbaric language. What other language could be spoken in the area and what other cultures do we know to have close contact through except for a Semitic one. (Canaanite maybe? with Hebrew being its closest counterpart)
  • We have accounts that Pelasgians even settled in parts of Italy and made war with the Sicels.
  • We also know that Egypt is very often cited in Greek mythology
  • We also know that Greeks adopted to the most Phoenician alphabet
  • We also know that Europa (abducted by Zeus) was Phoenician (probably in relation to the Phoenician goddess Astarte)
  • We also know that Zeus has sometimes been referred to as Palasgian diety and king of all gods with Athena being his daughter.

Here is also something that seems to be common in all of these cultures, just to add a little more spice.


Egyptian temple

1.1260915379.temple-of-sobek-haroeris.jpg


Phoenician temple

Baalbek-Bacchus.jpg


Greek temple

temple-of-poseidon-c500.jpg



Roman temple

temple_of_augustus_and_livia.jpg


All similar temples in other areas were built as an influence of these 3 cultures (as Im considering Romans as a continuation of the Greek one)

In my opinion Greeks from the classic era are a mixture of tribes of different origins who eventually intermixed to be one people with common dieties, law and culture, like they are today pooling in different attributes. Yellow mixed with blue makes Green, but Yellow is not Green and Green is not Blue.


The whole thing does not look too mysterious to me.

Will we ever get results from Neolithic and classical times from these regions? :unsure:
 
Albania is not the only hotspot for E-V13 but also, Greece and Bulgaria amoungst others who all had very ancient populations and settlements. Populations were scarce around the Whole of Europe anyway with the earliest largest being those of the Vinca culture before those of classical Greece. Farming is still thought to have been spread from Greece upwards so there must have been some kind of settlements before the classical times. If current distribution has nothing to do with ancient history then of course that should apply to all haplogroups. No? We see when we have reliable ancient samples although it seems that we can also draw some rough conclusions from the age of current populations.

1. I am talking exclusively about Kosovo. The fact that it is a current hotspot it is being used for deriving wild theories about ancient times, while we all know it is utter nonsense.
2. No. I am talking about a specific region, which AD history we know about.
 
^^I am getting beyond tired of this Serb/Albanian war. Didn't you guys have enough of this twenty-five years ago?

There was no war. Just some mild terrorist and anti-terrorist clashes, and it's still pretty much on. I guess as soon as UN (or whatever international police is there) steps out of region.
 
There was no war. Just some mild terrorist and anti-terrorist clashes, and it's still pretty much on. I guess as soon as UN (or whatever international police is there) steps out of region.

You're right. War is too clean a word for it. It was butchery and mass rape and ethnic cleansing. There should be thousands spending the rest of their lives in prison. Maybe I'd even bring back the death penalty.
 
There's now confirmed E1b1b1a1(2) in Neolithic Europe, so that part of the debate is over. There's also J2.

Anna Szcsenyi-Nagy
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf


Ed. Sorry, I didn't add that one is M78, and one may already be E-V13.

The cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC.

The rest are G2a, F*, I2a1, J2, and C.

R1b and I2a2 don't show up until the Bronze Age.

Kudos to Maciamo for always holding out for J2 having made it into Europe by the Neolithic. Do I get any points for saying it might have made it by the Late Neolithic? :)

Here is a map so you know where they are:

European_Middle_Neolithic.gif
 
Last edited:
Great summary Angela and it brings back the subject BANG to its tracks. Sometimes I wonder why so many hisotrians refer to the Pelasgians as mysterious or similar descriptions. There is lots of smoke but we dont know what kind of fire, but from the smoke we can often associate what kind of fire is burning.

We have lots of references and indications that the


  • Pelasgians were pre Hellenistic.
  • We also have have indications that they were associated with the Peloponnese (but separate to the Mycenaes) and spoke a barbaric language. What other language could be spoken in the area and what other cultures do we know to have close contact through except for a Semitic one. (Canaanite maybe? with Hebrew being its closest counterpart)
  • We have accounts that Pelasgians even settled in parts of Italy and made war with the Sicels.
  • We also know that Egypt is very often cited in Greek mythology
  • We also know that Greeks adopted to the most Phoenician alphabet
  • We also know that Europa (abducted by Zeus) was Phoenician (probably in relation to the Phoenician goddess Astarte)
  • We also know that Zeus has sometimes been referred to as Palasgian diety and king of all gods with Athena being his daughter.

All similar temples in other areas were built as an influence of these 3 cultures (as Im considering Romans as a continuation of the Greek one)

In my opinion Greeks from the classic era are a mixture of tribes of different origins who eventually intermixed to be one people with common dieties, law and culture, like they are today pooling in different attributes. Yellow mixed with blue makes Green, but Yellow is not Green and Green is not Blue.

The whole thing does not look too mysterious to me.


Not Mysterious at all, i think the Greek early Gods were surreally not Hellenized yet, as you mention Zeus has been also referred as Pelasgian.

Maleth check his foot....we know your E-V13 and we already know your foot LOL...

display-407.jpg




Asius of Samos (Ancient Greek: Ἄσιος ὁ Σάμιος) describes Pelasgus as the first man, born of the earth.[20]

Maybe this might be another link, maybe those first man born in Africa?....maybe another link that they might be M78 (north east Africa) than mutated in Europe E-V13?


i have sourced before that they lived around Pindus Mountains, they were barbaric and probably not people from the sea

Plain of Thessaly, to the west of classical Pelasgiotis, but in the original range of the Pelasgians. The Pindus Mountains are visible in the background. The river is the Peneus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians


pindus-mountains-mixed-forests.png
 
You're right. War is too clean a word for it. It was butchery and mass rape and ethnic cleansing. There should be thousands spending the rest of their lives in prison. Maybe I'd even bring back the death penalty.


Mild clashes as IKE said LOL, so mild that if you see the list i sourced you'll understand, all the highest level state officials found guilty by International Tribunal for ethnic cleansing (genocide) in Bosnia Croatia Kosovo, and now imagine what paramilitary had done, you are right there should be much much more in prison for that....

These atrocities should be condemned no matter the nationalities, this is what i still don't understand that a lot of people still don't even after 20 years...
 
Agree with Garrick..........pelasgians are not Illyrians, nothing to do with each other


That is Maciamo arguing, we are not talking here by specific names, it said that Terramare Culture (Italiy, Sicily, Sardinia) and Illyria at 4,000 ybp had a majority E-V13
if this is correct that Illyria area was majority E-V13 then surely they have came from either South Greece or even Terramare Culture, however Maciamo placed the roots of E-V13 8,000 in south Greece.
if E-V13 have came from Terramare Culture to South Greece then it might mean that Illyria is pre Mycenean and pre Pelazgoi, but these seems not to be the case....


Now call them Pelazgian or whatever it is clear that there is a genetic link....E-V13 traveled around and it was a majority 4,000 in South Greece Illyria and Terramare Culture. as per Maciamo is was a majority even at Vinca Culture 6,000 ybp....
 
That is Maciamo arguing, we are not talking here by specific names, it said that Terramare Culture (Italiy, Sicily, Sardinia) and Illyria at 4,000 ybp had a majority E-V13
if this is correct that Illyria area was majority E-V13 then surely they have came from either South Greece or even Terramare Culture, however Maciamo placed the roots of E-V13 8,000 in south Greece.
if E-V13 have came from Terramare Culture to South Greece then it might mean that Illyria is pre Mycenean and pre Pelazgoi, but these seems not to be the case....


Now call them Pelazgian or whatever it is clear that there is a genetic link....E-V13 traveled around and it was a majority 4,000 in South Greece Illyria and Terramare Culture. as per Maciamo is was a majority even at Vinca Culture 6,000 ybp....

Do you actually know where Illyria is on the map?...............the bulk of it ( 80% ) is only in modern Croatia and Bosnia
 
Not Mysterious at all, i think the Greek early Gods were surreally not Hellenized yet, as you mention Zeus has been also referred as Pelasgian.

Maleth check his foot....we know your E-V13 and we already know your foot LOL...

display-407.jpg




Asius of Samos (Ancient Greek: Ἄσιος ὁ Σάμιος) describes Pelasgus as the first man, born of the earth.[20]

Maybe this might be another link, maybe those first man born in Africa?....maybe another link that they might be M78 (north east Africa) than mutated in Europe E-V13?


i have sourced before that they lived around Pindus Mountains, they were barbaric and probably not people from the sea

Plain of Thessaly, to the west of classical Pelasgiotis, but in the original range of the Pelasgians. The Pindus Mountains are visible in the background. The river is the Peneus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians


pindus-mountains-mixed-forests.png

Pindus mountains, home of the Molossians, one of the 14 tribes that make up the Epirote people
 
Do you actually know where Illyria is on the map?...............the bulk of it ( 80% ) is only in modern Croatia and Bosnia


Of course i know, check the Maciamo map i sourced....i doesn't matter if its a bit far because as I noted E-V13 traveled around and spread, they didn't get stuck in one place.

It would make sense that Terramare Culture (Italiy, Sicily, Sardinia) and Illyria at 4,000 ybp had a majority E-V13 following by other groups...
 
Pindus mountains, home of the Molossians, one of the 14 tribes that make up the Epirote people


Yes however we are arguing about pre Molossians pre Mycenaean, probably around 4,500 ybp, and not labeling it with any names, it's just E-V13.....Molossians might have descend from E-V13 though (we don't know), we know that E-V13 is pretty high in those areas....
 
1. I am talking exclusively about Kosovo. The fact that it is a current hotspot it is being used for deriving wild theories about ancient times, while we all know it is utter nonsense.
2. No. I am talking about a specific region, which AD history we know about.

Do not worry too much about e-v13 of Kosovo, it only has just under 2 million population compared to the just under 3 million of Albania, 11 million of Greece, and just over 7 million of Bulgaria.....other E-V13 hotspots
 
There's now confirmed E1b1b1a1(2) in Neolithic Europe, so that part of the debate is over. There's also J2.

Anna Szcsenyi-Nagy
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf


Ed. Sorry, I didn't add that one is M78, and one may already be E-V13.

The cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC.

The rest are G2a, F*, I2a1, J2, and C.

R1b and I2a2 don't show up until the Bronze Age.

Kudos to Maciamo for always holding out for J2 having made it into Europe by the Neolithic. Do I get any points for saying it might have made it by the Late Neolithic? :)

Here is a map so you know where they are:

European_Middle_Neolithic.gif

For a moment I thought you were referring to the one of Marie La Can et al. So these are pretty recent ones, one from Sopot other from Lengyal. Very interesting indeed. Thanks for posting
 

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