who were Slavic people?

The problem with slavs is that they don't even know their own ancient history.

one slav here says Serbians are the true slavs and migrated north and then east

another states , ukraines are the only slavs

while the slavs I know ( 2) both agree that west-slavic are the purest slavs, thenfollow east-slavic and last is south-slavic people ...............what is the truth here?

thats the good question :D
 
The problem with slavs is that they don't even know their own ancient history.

one slav here says Serbians are the true slavs and migrated north and then east

another states , ukraines are the only slavs

while the slavs I know ( 2) both agree that west-slavic are the purest slavs, thenfollow east-slavic and last is south-slavic people ...............what is the truth here?

In my researches. Poles are slavicised Balts, Sarmatians, Normans, Celto-Germans ad next Slavs. Slavs are I2a1b people. They moved to "Poland" in V century from "Ukraine" turn in VII go south. Byzantine Empire made slavic version of Bible and as a winner "given us" language, religion etc. to Poland, where for 200 years settled Slavs (Serbs and Croats: White). Later we (Balts and Sarmatian in majority) were at influence of Roman Emipre, so we erased glagolica and take Latinica.
If in Ireland Celtic people speak now german english language are they Germans or English? If in Mozambique speaks portuguese language - are they really Portuguese people?
And look - in Ukraine I2a1b is still about 20%, ex-Yugoslavia near 40- 50%
The differences between Balts, Sarmatians and Scythians is subclade under R1a1. Normans is I1, Celto-Germans R1b u-106 ...
 
vandlorm:"Slavs are I2a1b people."

Surefire:

More ancient Scandinavians (Skoglund, Malmström et al. 2014)

http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2014/04/...-skoglund.html

Mesolithic Swedish hunter gatherers
StoraFörvar11 aka SfF11(Male), 7,500-7,250 cal. B.P, Stora Karlso Sweden : mtDNA=U5a1

6,873 ± 119 BC, Stora Karlso Sweden : mtDNA=U4b1

Motala1(Female), 6,000BC Motala Sweden: mtDNA=U5a1

Motala2(Male), 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I* (I P38+, I PF3742+, I L41+, I1 S108-, I1 L845-, I1 M253-, I2a1b CT1293-, I2a2 L37-), mtDNA=U2e1

Motala3(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I2a1b*(I M258+, I PF3742+, I2 L68+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U5a1

Motala4(Female) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: mtDNA=U5a2d

Motala6(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=? (Q1 L232- Q1a2a L55+), mtDNA=U5a2d

Motala9(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I* (I P38+, I1 P40-), mtDNA=U5a2

Motala12(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=pre-I2a1b or brother lineage to I2a1b(I PF3742+, I M258+, I M170+, I2 L68+, I2a L460+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS5985+. I2a1b L178+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b CTS5375-, I2a1b CTS8486-, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U2e1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitted_Ware_culture

Neolithic Swedish hunter gatherers of the Pitted Ware culture

Ajv52A(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=V

Ajv59(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U

Ajv53(Female), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

Ajv58(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: Y DNA=I2a1-P37.2, mtDNA=U4d

Ajv70(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

Ire8(Male), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

Ajv13(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

Ajv52b(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

Ajv66(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

Ajv54(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5

Ajv36(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5

Ajv5(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5a

Ajv29a(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5a

Fir15(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U4

Fir22(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U4

Fir4(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U5

Fir27(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U5a

Ire6b(?), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=T2b

Ire9(?), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

Ire3(?), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4



Neolithic Swedish Farmers of the TRB culture, Frälsegården, Gokhem Sweden


Gökhem4(Male), 5,050-4,750 cal. years B.P.: mtDNA=H

Gökhem2(Female), 5,050-4,750 cal. years B.P.: mtDNA=H1c

Gökhem7(Female), 5,050-4,750 cal. years B.P.: mtDNA=H24

Gökhem5(Female), 5,280-4,890 cal. B.P.: mtDNA=K1e

Ste7(Female), 5,280-4,890 cal. B.P.: mtDNA=T2b

Ste7(Female), 5,280-4,890 cal. B.P.: mtDNA=J
 
Motala12(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=pre-I2a1b or brother lineage to I2a1b(I PF3742+, I M258+, I M170+, I2 L68+, I2a L460+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS5985+. I2a1b L178+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b CTS5375-, I2a1b CTS8486-, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U2e1

Motala12(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=pre-I2a1b or brother lineage to I2a1b!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
In my researches. Poles are slavicised Balts, Sarmatians, Normans, Celto-Germans ad next Slavs. Slavs are I2a1b people. They moved to "Poland" in V century from "Ukraine" turn in VII go south. Byzantine Empire made slavic version of Bible and as a winner "given us" language, religion etc. to Poland, where for 200 years settled Slavs (Serbs and Croats: White). Later we (Balts and Sarmatian in majority) were at influence of Roman Emipre, so we erased glagolica and take Latinica.
If in Ireland Celtic people speak now german english language are they Germans or English? If in Mozambique speaks portuguese language - are they really Portuguese people?
And look - in Ukraine I2a1b is still about 20%, ex-Yugoslavia near 40- 50%
The differences between Balts, Sarmatians and Scythians is subclade under R1a1. Normans is I1, Celto-Germans R1b u-106 ...
The weakest point of your hypothesis is low frequency of I2 in Poland. All I2 is at 6% level in Poland. From archeology we know that just before Slavic expansion central Europe was depopulated. It was a time of extremely cold weather, Justinian plague, many wars and invasions from the Steppe, and Germanic tribes leaving this area and going West. In this case Slavs who came to Poland were substantial majority over local populations. In this case we should see I2 at much higher level, same as in Balkans, but we don't. This is telling us that Slavs who came to Poland were didn't have high I2 to start with, but high R1a. If proto Slavic language came from I2 Dinaric group, it had spread to R1a population before they came to Poland.
Otherwise I do agree that current Polish folks contain elements from ancient Balts, Vikings, Celtic, Russian, Jewish, Tatar and a lot of Germanic.

PS Did you mean I2 Dinaric instead of I2a1b?
 
LeBrok:The weakest point of your hypothesis is low frequency of I2 in Poland."

Maybe,but you should understand-finally-that

modern distribution of haplogroups has nothing to do with hg. origins.Think about the Skandinavian example!
 
LeBrok:The weakest point of your hypothesis is low frequency of I2 in Poland."

Maybe,but you should understand-finally-that

modern distribution of haplogroups has nothing to do with hg. origins.Think about the Skandinavian example!
Are you saying that every haplogroup in today's Poland came from far away? That there is no continuity of haplogroups in poland from 5th century AD till now?
 
Are you saying that every haplogroup in today's Poland came from far away? That there is no continuity of haplogroups in poland from 5th century AD till now?

I am not talking about 5th cent.haplogroups!

Motala12(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=pre-I2a1b or brother lineage to I2a1b(I PF3742+, I M258+, I M170+, I2 L68+, I2a L460+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS5985+. I2a1b L178+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b CTS5375-, I2a1b CTS8486-, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U2e1
 
I don't know the solution to the puzzle but here is a few hints maybe:

-Slavs appeared in history right after the Huns disappeared (maybe a couple of hundred years difference), roughly on the same lands from which the Huns disappeared.
-The first Slavic kingdoms were Khaganates, a form of tribal kingdom common in Central Asia (turkic, mongolian etc).
-There is less than 5% turkic/mongolian y-dna in Southern Slavs, and that cannot be because of the Turks because even Turks themselves have less than 5%.
-Southern Slavs have about 15-20% Eastern European admixture on 23AndMe (compared to Kosovars who have 0%) and 35-50% I2a1b Dinaric y-dna, which means originally either I2a1b-Dinaric was not Slavic or East-European R1a was not slavic.
-Southern Slavs are closer genetically to Greeks, Albanians, Romanians, and Italians, than to Russians or Poles.
-Christianity and written Slavic were given to Slavs much after their first settlement, by the Byzantine Empire.
 
First off all, I have to learn english. I can't clearly explain. I should change territory of early Slavs - not only "Ukraine" but also Poland. of course with I2a1b (alone or with r1a1 people). And I2a1 people grows here, do not moved. With Huns invasion came R1a1 people with many subclades which make them Balts, some Sarmatians or Scythians. This resulted that Slavs started moved to south. Later more R1a1 people came to east Europe with Mongol invasion. In Poland we still have slavic language because of Bible (made by Cyryl & Methodius). If we can teach Africans to speak french or portuguese so it was possible to teach R1a1 people speak some kind of slavic language. I red a book from 1851 written by Karol Szajnocha "Lechicki początek Polski" Lechites began of Poland. Author explained that polish language (or more accurate slavic - serbian or croatian) grows from old norman language. Polish places like Złotów or Złotniki have nothing to do with Złoto - gold but much more with norman word slott - castle. He put quite a lot of examples. Now Swedes or Norwegians changed their language because of Celts etc.


and some add:




I used to be fascinated by the Slavs a year ago. I read and tried to understand Serbian and Croatian language. They have in their consciousness the migration from northern lands.
 
In my researches. Poles are slavicised Balts, Sarmatians, Normans, Celto-Germans ad next Slavs. Slavs are I2a1b people. They moved to "Poland" in V century from "Ukraine" turn in VII go south. Byzantine Empire made slavic version of Bible and as a winner "given us" language, religion etc. to Poland, where for 200 years settled Slavs (Serbs and Croats: White). Later we (Balts and Sarmatian in majority) were at influence of Roman Emipre, so we erased glagolica and take Latinica.
If in Ireland Celtic people speak now german english language are they Germans or English? If in Mozambique speaks portuguese language - are they really Portuguese people?
And look - in Ukraine I2a1b is still about 20%, ex-Yugoslavia near 40- 50%
The differences between Balts, Sarmatians and Scythians is subclade under R1a1. Normans is I1, Celto-Germans R1b u-106 ...

Nobody gave us "language", lol... Do you think that your ancestors remained Polish language because of some "Church"? No, they fought for this language and for your land! The claim that some religious (occult) group from Byzantium gave us language is idiotic. Do you think that Slavs did not have their own faith before Christianity? Christian cult is a fusion of Egyptian Osirianism & Sethism and other "pagan" faiths...(look at the "Horns of moses" & Flavius quoting Manetho about real name of "Moses", being an "Osiris's priest"). The Christian "festivals" did not come from any "Greeks" to us, but were perverted to the maximum degree and assimilated into the new cult called Christianity. This is why the "Dark middle ages" were called "Dark", because it was a time to purge Europe from the old world... It seems you are still living in some imaginary world. Old Slavs have had rich culture, language, every word is like a treasure to me. It contains a message, which is(was) part of mythology, poems. And understand the flow of your thoughts completelly. Everything you read from religious ABrahamic (Against Brahmanic; old Slavic and also Lithuanian, Latvian was part of it) sources about "non abrahamic faiths" is "satanic, primitive and does not exist"... Why do you think were Slavs in a war with Rome (ex Etruscan Ruma) and Byzantium (Božiant) if not because of this parasitical society called Christianity?
Sarmatia was only a Latin transliteration... , like was Galicia in current Ukraine or Halycia; which was never a "Celtic" territory; instead the names Galicia, Celt or Ghaul derives from "Glagoliti"; "Galeb, seaGull; Galus,...It was a territorial name.
 
Nobody gave us "language", lol... Do you think that your ancestors remained Polish language because of some "Church"? No, they fought for this language and for your land! The claim that some religious (occult) group from Byzantium gave us language is idiotic. Do you think that Slavs did not have their own faith before Christianity? Christian cult is a fusion of Egyptian Osirianism & Sethism and other "pagan" faiths...(look at the "Horns of moses" & Flavius quoting Manetho about real name of "Moses", being an "Osiris's priest"). The Christian "festivals" did not come from any "Greeks" to us, but were perverted to the maximum degree and assimilated into the new cult called Christianity. This is why the "Dark middle ages" were called "Dark", because it was a time to purge Europe from the old world... It seems you are still living in some imaginary world. Old Slavs have had rich culture, language, every word is like a treasure to me. It contains a message, which is(was) part of mythology, poems. And understand the flow of your thoughts completelly. Everything you read from religious ABrahamic (Against Brahmanic; old Slavic and also Lithuanian, Latvian was part of it) sources about "non abrahamic faiths" is "satanic, primitive and does not exist"... Why do you think were Slavs in a war with Rome (ex Etruscan Ruma) and Byzantium (Božiant) if not because of this parasitical society called Christianity?
Sarmatia was only a Latin transliteration... , like was Galicia in current Ukraine or Halycia; which was never a "Celtic" territory; instead the names Galicia, Celt or Ghaul derives from "Glagoliti"; "Galeb, seaGull; Galus,...It was a territorial name.

So look how looks Russians, how Poles, how ex-Yugoslavia people and how Bulgarians. Russians look... "russians", Poles on majority looking West Baltid, Bulgaria Pontid (in Poland about 15-20% looks North Pontid) Yugoslavia people in majority looks Dinarid. We are different people who are speaking something similar like nowadays esperanto. We Poles have word dużo = much, other Slavs have word "mnogo" but Latvians have "daudz", Lithuenians have "daug".
 
I2a is pre-slavic in the Southern Europe. Slavs were an almost exclusively R1a group.

[h=3]Abstract
[/h]Y chromosome variation in 457 Croatian samples was studied using 16 SNPs/indel and eight STR loci. High frequency of haplogroup I in Croatian populations and the phylogeographic pattern in its background STR diversity over Europe make Adriatic coast one likely source of the recolonization of Europe following the Last Glacial Maximum. The higher frequency of I in the southern island populations is contrasted with higher frequency of group R1a chromosomes in the northern island of Krk and in the mainland. R1a frequency, while low in Greeks and Albanians, is highest in Polish, Ukrainian and Russian populations and could be a sign of the Slavic impact in the Balkan region. Haplogroups J, G and E that can be related to the spread of farming characterize the minor part (12.5%) of the Croatian paternal lineages. In one of the southern island (Hvar) populations, we found a relatively high frequency (14%) of lineages belonging to P*(xM173) cluster, which is unusual for European populations. Interestingly, the same population also harbored mitochondrial haplogroup F that is virtually absent in European populations – indicating a connection with Central Asian populations, possibly the Avars.




http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v11/n7/full/5200992a.html
 
"We Poles have word dużo = much, other Slavs have word "mnogo" but Latvians have "daudz", Lithuenians have "daug"."

And we have dosti (dost in dialects) or mnogo, "duže" (dolgo); "long". Mnogo means Ma-Noge ("has legs") in your language. This is the 'difference' between us(you can name things as you wish - to describe it; and the word will sound totally different in some other Slavic or non Slavic language (it will transmute, mutate; my point here is that slavic languages are generally ignored in linguistics, already because of stereotypes which started long, long ago, by your "beloved Church")... Slavic tribes were separated into 3 major groups:
1) Veni ("Veneti")
2) Antes (Ukrainians, old Russians)
3) Sklavines (a mixture between Scythian (V)Antes and Vens; hence; Skla-Veni or Skolotoi (Sokoli, Skoti)+Venci...
And you do not 'look' any different from any Ukrainians and Russians.

You can notice this fact that your men carry Y patrimonial haplogroups: R1a: 57%, R1b: 13%, other haplogroups are in minority. N (Tatar / Turkish & Suomi) haplogroup is bellow 4%; Latvians have 38-42% of N haplogroups, 38-40% of the R1a haplogroup... Russians have bellow(!) 23% of the N haplogroup (which does not make them "finnic", they have Suomi ancestry only over their "mothers" ). They also have above 55% of the R1a haplogroup... Note, that the origin of this partimonial line came from Russia itself and nowhere else on this planet.

Do you think we "inherited" all these vast territories from some "Church"? Church with their beloved "chosen" Teutones would rather destroy us, with Greeks and Italians. Not to mention Ottomans who were treatened in our lands. Polish and Russian people destroyed their dreams to capture whole Europe, before they've ever reached Gothic territories!
 
So, are Pashtuns or Tajiks (r1a1) Slavs? Or maybe Latvian are Slavs? But why they speak non slavic languages?
 
"We Poles have word dużo = much, other Slavs have word "mnogo" but Latvians have "daudz", Lithuenians have "daug"."

And we have dosti (dost in dialects) or mnogo, "duže" (dolgo); "long". Mnogo means Ma-Noge ("has legs") in your language. This is the 'difference' between us... Slavic tribes were separated into 3 major groups:
1) Veni ("Veneti")
2) Antes (Ukrainians, old Russians)
3) Sklavines (a mixture between Scythian (V)Antes and Vens; hence; Skla-Veni or Skolotoi (Sokoli, Skoti)+Venci...
And you do not 'look' any different from any Ukrainians and Russians.

You can notice this fact that your men carry Y patrimonial haplogroups: R1a: 57%, R1b: 13%, other haplogroups are in minority. N (Tatar / Turkish & Suomi) haplogroup is bellow 4%; Latvians have 38-42% of N haplogroups, 38-40% of the R1a haplogroup... Russians have bellow(!) 23% of the N haplogroup (which does not make them "finnic", they have Suomi ancestry only over their "mothers" ).

Do you think we "inherited" all these vast territories from some "Church"? Church with their beloved "chosen" Teutones would rather destroy us, with Greeks and Italians. Not to mention Ottomans who were treatened in our lands. Polish and Russian people destroyed their dreams to capture whole Europe, before they've ever reached Gothic territories!

Dosti in polish is dość / dosyć not "dużo"
 
And. If we have something about 2 thousand samples. Is this enought to 38 milion (or with emigrants 60) citizenships of Poland? These test costs money - it promotes objectivity?
 
Russians have bellow(!) 23% of the N haplogroup (which does not make them "finnic", they have Suomi ancestry only over their "mothers" ).

I'll interject here to say there's a difference between Finnish (Suomi) and Finno-Ugric ancestry. Russians, specifically northern Russians, have little of the former and lot of the latter - and not just from their mothers. You won't find anything close to those percentages in West or South Slavs or Ukrainians.

Finnish mtDNA pool is quite distinctive due to, for example, certain prevalent U5 clades and does not resemble that of Russian slavs from any region. Whatever Meryans or Bjarmians or other finno-ugric speakers involved in Russian ethnogenesis were, they were not "like us".
 
Dosti in polish is dość / dosyć not "dużo"
Depends on context, it could mean "I have a lot (dostatek), therefore enough (dosc, nie potrzebuje wiecej).

We Poles have word dużo = much, other Slavs have word "mnogo" but Latvians have "daudz"
Poles also use "mnogo" as "duzo", old village people and perhaps more in easter Poland. We have also word "mnozyc", multiply, produce, many offspring.
 

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