The genetic origin of Daunians

23andme assign Ashkenazy / Jewish population, … I don’t get any in my 23andme results, the chromos. position I share with ORD010 according to 23andme is totally Italian :)

I never said you have jewish segments
On dna ;)
Just posted his g25 values closest results
You can see calabria in the list this dude was southern european autosomally speaking ...
The italian jews, and romanioes are just close
Because they have southern european admixture
They aquired in italy or greece thats all:)
 
I never said you have jewish segments
On dna ;)
Just posted his g25 values closest results
You can see calabria in the list this dude was southern european autosomally speaking ...
The italian jews, and romanioes are just close
Because they have southern european admixture
They aquired in italy or greece thats all:)

… Knish, a stuffed Ashkenazi dish contained by dough, sounds similar to my dialect “Caniscia”, it means container,
… the pronunciation of Knish and Caniscia are very similar, … maybe there’s an ancient connection.
… as perspective, in Italian I would call “Knish / Caniscia” “un Farcito di …” or “in Camicia”.

In Salento we have a Christmas dish similar to fried Knish: Le Pittule, though I’ve seen restaurants that serve it year round as an appetizer :)
 
23andme are too slap-hazed on giving Ashkenazi
I think it is because a lot of Jewish people are very interested in genealogy. Also, the founder (sister of the owner of YouTube), is Jewish, so she's probably keen on that aspect.

It is kind of like the way some companies are very liberal about claiming they can tell you so much about ancient ancestors like mta.
 
Usually 23andme is very reliable in assigning Ashkenazi Jewish segments, its never 100 percent, especially for more rare segments. Then 23andme works with smoothing for Ashkenazi too, which means these segments being assigned by context, Ashkenazi if that's the context, Italian or German or whatever if that's it.
 
Usually 23andme is very reliable in assigning Ashkenazi Jewish segments, its never 100 percent, especially for more rare segments. Then 23andme works with smoothing for Ashkenazi too, which means these segments being assigned by context, Ashkenazi if that's the context, Italian or German or whatever if that's it.

agree but they are not special
almost all the companies out there are great in finding aschenazi ancestery
for example :
my % is the same in ftdna and my heritage ( which was ftdna upload )
because aschenazi experinced a (bottlneck + endogomy) it is very easy to find aschenazi ancestery
if it is there;)

p.s
personally speaking my granny is aschenazi with roots in ukraine
 
agree but they are not special
almost all the companies out there are great in finding aschenazi ancestery
for example :
my % is the same in ftdna and my heritage ( which was ftdna upload )
because aschenazi experinced a (bottlneck + endogomy) it is very easy to find aschenazi ancestery
if it is there;)

p.s
personally speaking my granny is aschenazi with roots in ukraine

No, they are not as good. FTDNA and MyHeritage in particular are by far not as reliable, giving people AJ which don't have it and vice versa.
 
No, they are not as good. FTDNA and MyHeritage in particular are by far not as reliable, giving people AJ which don't have it and vice versa.

i know of cases in my heritage of what you say
but in ftdna not so much it is pretty a spot on
specially in the my origins 3.0 version ...:unsure:


p.s
i am 1/4 aschenazi by geneology
and ftdna gave me 26% aschenazi pretty good if you ask
me ;)
 
i know of cases in my heritage of what you say
but in ftdna not so much it is pretty a spot on
specially in the my origins 3.0 version ...:unsure:


p.s
i am 1/4 aschenazi by geneology
and ftdna gave me 26% aschenazi pretty good if you ask
me ;)

FTDNA and sometimes even My Heritage do get it right, sometimes even better than the others, but not consistently so. Like they gave some of my Central European matches, which are practically close 100 percent from one region and ethnicity, very good looking results, but others get complete nonsense, even if they are from the same place, village and even family. They might be siblings and it goes way off. I'm not just judging by my own results, but those from thousands of matches and those of administered samples and from other reports.
But I do agree that FTDNA might be somewhat better than MH, but still behind AncestryDNA and 23andme which are currently still setting the gold standard, because there is simply no better ethnicity estimate out there.
 
any of your austrian matches get aschenazi % ?
i know among non- jews there are some cases mainly in hungary and russia
maybe austrians from vienna will have some
who knows:unsure:
johann strauss ii famous austrian composer was 1/8 aschenazi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Strauss_II

if he would take a dna test today ( i mean if he was alive)
he would score 6% or 12% aschenazi


p.s
but i know usually jews lived seperate from non-jews where ever they lived
so chance for mixing was low
 
There are of course people with Ashkenazi ancestry in Vienna, even some prominent families. In the 19th century a lot of Jews did convert and some assimilated more than others.
There are records of those leaving the Israelite community and there were some peaks of this, already in the 19th century.
It did actually happen in both directions of proselytes and converts at different times, but from Jewish to Christian there was a peak in the 19th century already.
You rather have to consider that the urban German populations have rather low birth rates, most of the time. That's one of the reasons for the replacement over time.
Both rural Catholic Austrians and religious Jews tended to have more offspring than the more urban and bourgeois population to which most converts belonged.
In parts of Hungary the conversions and mixed couples became more widespread even beyond Budapest, though I would be very careful to extrapolate any numbers from testers mostly from this big cosmopolitan city to the rest of the country.
The high numbers for Hungary come definitely from a specific urban and social context, they are not representative for the country as a whole.
 
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No, they are not as good. FTDNA and MyHeritage in particular are by far not as reliable, giving people AJ which don't have it and vice versa.

neither of the above has given my family members (6) any ashkenazi percentage.

23andme is the only site which gave my father about 2% .....................but also gave him Lower Saxony link with East-Frisian jew ...............a person with the impossible surname to trace, which is Tax

it could come from ...............The German surname Tax is derived from the Old German word "dachs" or "dahs," meaning "badger."
 
Any news whether we're going to get deep subclades on these samples? I'm super curious to see whether those J2B2-L283 are related to northern Illyrians or southern Illyrians/Z638.

They've done lots of comparisons of Messapian and Albanian as languages, and assumed a larger Illyro-Messapic, or Messapo-Illyrian group (Eric Hamp and others), taking Albanian as a modern descendant of Illyrian, but it could just be that Messapic = Northern Illyrian!! We don't have to abandon the theory of Messapian being Illyrian migrants to Italy. They could just be from Croatia/Slovenian parts of Illyria.
 
Any news whether we're going to get deep subclades on these samples? I'm super curious to see whether those J2B2-L283 are related to northern Illyrians or southern Illyrians/Z638.
They've done lots of comparisons of Messapian and Albanian as languages, and assumed a larger Illyro-Messapic, or Messapo-Illyrian group (Eric Hamp and others), taking Albanian as a modern descendant of Illyrian, but it could just be that Messapic = Northern Illyrian!! We don't have to abandon the theory of Messapian being Illyrian migrants to Italy. They could just be from Croatia/Slovenian parts of Illyria.

They have only been in Puglia since the LBA, so I think it is still possible they could have come from Illyria.
 
Any news whether we're going to get deep subclades on these samples? I'm super curious to see whether those J2B2-L283 are related to northern Illyrians or southern Illyrians/Z638.

They've done lots of comparisons of Messapian and Albanian as languages, and assumed a larger Illyro-Messapic, or Messapo-Illyrian group (Eric Hamp and others), taking Albanian as a modern descendant of Illyrian, but it could just be that Messapic = Northern Illyrian!! We don't have to abandon the theory of Messapian being Illyrian migrants to Italy. They could just be from Croatia/Slovenian parts of Illyria.

Well, there is a view, but not totally conclusive that Peucetian tumuli resemble Istrian tumuli, on the other hand, Histria was dominated by Castellieri Culture which in turn was related to Posusje/Dinaric Culture where J2b2-L283 was found.
 
ORD009 & ORD010 ... Dod. K12b ... Least-squares method vs Gaussian method

ORD009:
Least-squares methodGaussian method

1 Italian_Liguria @ 2.001298
2 Italian_Lombardy @ 2.673237
3 Italian_Emilia @ 3.229977
4 Italian_Piedmont @ 3.581089
5 Italian_Tuscany @ 4.438362
6 Italian_Veneto @ 4.612169
7 Swiss_Italian @ 5.902585
8 Italian_Friuli_VG @ 6.853336
9 Italian_Trentino @ 7.025113
10 Italian_Romagna @ 7.078929

1 Italian_Lombardy @ 2.374203
2 Italian_Tuscany @ 2.746119
3 Italian_Veneto @ 2.771867
4 Italian_Piedmont @ 2.800869
5 Italian_Trentino @ 2.802866
6 Italian_Liguria @ 2.910394
7 Swiss_Italian @ 3.143305
8 Italian_Friuli_VG @ 3.22007
9 Italian_Emilia @ 3.293109
10 Italian_Romagna @ 3.433222

ORD010:
Least-squares methodGaussian method
1 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 4.073816
2 Moldovan_Jewish @ 4.893942
3 Italian_Jew @ 5.151244
4 Italian_Calabria @ 5.340065
5 Italian_Campania @ 6.831305
6 Greek_Fournoi @ 7.092064
7 Italian_Sicily @ 7.121437
8 Greek_Crete @ 7.777078
9 Greek_Icaria @ 7.848497
10 Sephardic_Jew @ 7.945274
1 Italian_Campania @ 4.172999
2 Italian_Calabria @ 4.475073
3 Greek_Izmir @ 4.78169
4 Greek_Crete @ 4.79933
5 Italian_Jew @ 4.927132
6 Moldovan_Jewish @ 5.055584
7 Greek_Rhodes @ 5.066042
8 Greek_Kos @ 5.156257
9 Italian_Abruzzo @ 5.214077
10 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 5.285824
 
… Gaussian found a better fit for ORD010 than Least-squares, I think :)
 
QxXzuTU.png


There's something about the ORD010 sample that makes it too exotic to be a typical Southern Italian. Both I and ORD009 are very good fits for the modeling I have put together.

As we know, the Italian_Apulia sample (and other "Updated Dodecad K12b modern samples) comes from dubious sources, so we cannot verify if it is representative, or where it actually comes from.

But relatively speaking, this modeling is a bad fit for ORD010:

WNKkTzA.png


Normally, this modeling works well for Modern and Ancient Italians.

Idl3THN.png


zV0kYKy.png
 
QxXzuTU.png


There's something about the ORD010 sample that makes it too exotic to be a typical Southern Italian. Both I and ORD009 are very good fits for the modeling I have put together.

As we know, the Italian_Apulia sample (and other "Updated Dodecad K12b modern samples) comes from dubious sources, so we cannot verify if it is representative, or where it actually comes from.

But relatively speaking, this modeling is a bad fit for ORD010:

WNKkTzA.png


Normally, this modeling works well for Modern and Ancient Italians.

Idl3THN.png


zV0kYKy.png


the T1a ydna of R850 is very very close to ORD010 in regards to the numbers you presented

we know that R850 came from the Etruscan Rutuli tribe in Lazio province
 
the T1a ydna of R850 is very very close to ORD010 in regards to the numbers you presented

we know that R850 came from the Etruscan Rutuli tribe in Lazio province

That's true, but the distance is very large compared to the majority of the others.

8.6+ for R850

5.7+ for ORD010

There's something else that should be included in the modeling, that would make their fit better.

Modern Northern and Southern Italians, along with Latins, and Etruscans fit really well with the modeling, around 1 distances or below 0.

The Daunians look very heterogenous, with mostly bad fits, though if the modeling is anything to go by, I would suggest ORD009 was a "native" to Italy.
 

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