Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

markoz2 said:

No, Aegean swords and chariots are for all intents and purposes carbon-copies of their Anatolian predecessors. This is one of the many reasons the results of the paper shouldn't come as a surprise.

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Interesting. Do you know what culture and what part of Anatolia is most similar to Mycenaeans technology?

Angela said:

Is this the "newest" PCA to which you're referring? If not, whose PCA are we discussing?

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This one, the latest produced by Lazaridis (Lazaridis et al 2017)


To compare with these ones

Lazaridis et al 2016 (Genomic insights into the origin of farming in the ancient Near East)
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v536/n7617/fig_tab/nature19310_SF1.html





Lazaridis et al 2014 (Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans)
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/fig_tab/nature13673_F2.html

How about Hittites?

LeBrok said:

Interesting. Do you know what culture and what part of Anatolia is most similar to Mycenaeans technology?

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Fire Haired Prediction!!!

Etruscans DNA will show no or little Steppe ancestry. Ancient IE Italians will show a significant dose of Steppe. Ancient DNA from Italy and India will confirm Steppe people spread some IE languages. But only Hittite DNA can confirm PIE originated in the Steppe.

Does anyone really think it's a coincidence Myceneans look like Minoans with a tiny dose of Yamnaya?

Pax Augusta said:

This one, the latest produced by Lazaridis (Lazaridis et al 2017)

To compare with these ones

Lazaridis et al 2016 (Genomic insights into the origin of farming in the ancient Near East)
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v536/n7617/fig_tab/nature19310_SF1.html

Lazaridis et al 2014 (Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans)
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/fig_tab/nature13673_F2.html

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Thanks, Pax. I goofed on that one by not reading the legend carefully and assuming it was still the same. Like Baby's father in "Dirty Dancing"(played by the great Jerry Orbach), "When I'm wrong, I say I was wrong."

It's almost as if the Reich group heard our complaints about not knowing the source of those Greek samples.

Interesting how close some of the Mycenaeans are to Anatolia Kumtepe.

I wonder if that could possibly mean that the Trojans and the Mycenaeans weren't actually very different from one another? Put this down to a burst of highly speculative license. On a personal note, going solely on the personalities drawn by Homer, I'm still team Troy, excepting, of course, for that twit Paris.

The Minoans are exactly where they should be, south but not appreciably "east" of the Mycenaeans. The "Levantine" in Crete so beloved of certain agenda obsessed amateurs could partly date from this period, as the 3 way model for Minoans is Anatolian Neolithic (which of course also includes Levant Neolithic) plus "eastern" farmer/Iran Neo like, plus some percent additional "Levantine" admix, which makes sense looking at the geography and archaeology.

My point about modern Crete still stands.

Well Trojans are supposed to be relevant to Romans (see Aeneas). Actually, it took so many years for Troy to fall. They should have done the jerb in two years max.

Angela said:

On a personal note, going solely on the personalities drawn by Homer, I'm still team Troy, excepting, of course, that twit Paris.

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Diomedes said:

Well Trojans are supposed to be relevant to Romans (see Aeneas). Actually, it took so many years for Troy to fall. They should have done the jerb in two years max.

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As I said, I base my preference on the personalities and culture as depicted by Homer. I can't stand Agamemnon what with his sacrificing his daughter, or his brother who can't control his flighty wife and so starts a terrible war because he's a cornuto. Not my idea of heroes. Nor the glory obsessed Achilles either. My favorite ancient Greeks are those from the classical period in, say, Athens.

I'm not shallow enough to base my preferences on some mythical tie to my own heritage. For example, even if some of the Sea Peoples came from Sardinia or other parts of ancient Italy, I would be on team Egypt or Canaan. I'm always on the side of the civilized core. So, likewise, team Crete, not team Mycenaean. No big fan of gladiatorial fights either, and slavery, and on and on, even if we should avoid judging ancient people by modern standards.

Pax Augusta said:

This one, the latest produced by Lazaridis (Lazaridis et al 2017)

To compare with these ones

Lazaridis et al 2016 (Genomic insights into the origin of farming in the ancient Near East)
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v536/n7617/fig_tab/nature19310_SF1.html

Lazaridis et al 2014 (Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans)
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/fig_tab/nature13673_F2.html

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Thanks for posting this! This is interesting...two Mycenaens are overlapping Ashkenazim and a Sicilian, another two seem to be very Maltese like. The Minoans overlap various non-Ashkenazim Jewish samples, guess its that extra Iran or east Neolithic.

1. Anatolian Neolithic base
2. Minoan result of east/Iran/Caucus movement
3. Mycenean result of something else bringing in Steppe
4. Modern Greeks have even more Steppe

In #3, could this be caused by further movement from the East/caucus which by that time had more steppe due to IE expansion? Rather than over land, a Black Sea route could be plausible.

If the Myceneans were part of a conglomeration of sea peoples as depicted by Egyptians, they could have picked up steppe from contact with other Sea Peoples such as from the Black Sea through trade.

What do we know of people living on the Georgia coast and Crimea at the time?

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Maciamo said:

I also disagree with Lazaridis and al. when they say that "Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry". Mycenaeans are much closer to the Minoans than to Modern Greeks. Modern Greeks have 3x more EHG (about 20%) than Mycenaeans (7%), but they also have WHG (3% according to D-stat). This suggests that numerous waves of European invaders (Dorians, Celts, Romans, Goths, Slavs) contributed to a large share of modern Greek DNA. Since obviously no invader to Greece were pure EHG, and none had more than 50% of EHG in average (30-35% might be more realistic as the Romans had comparatively low EHG), to increase from 7% to 20% of EHG, the percentage of post-Mycenaean DNA from European invaders must be comprised between 25% and 40%. Most of it will be blue ENF and pink CHG that won't be identifiable using these relatively simple admixtures. What we see is only the clear increase in EHG, which is only one third to half of the new invaders' DNA.

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How do we know that the Myceneans did not arrive with Minoan-like DNA as well?

In other words modern Greeks are nothing like Mycenaean Greeks, and even less Minoan Greeks. Modern Greeks have much more European ancestry. Y-DNA alone suggests 40 to 45% of European lineages (as opposed to Near Eastern), and over 60% if we included E-V13 (E1b1b came from the Near East but E-V13 clearly emerged in Europe). Greeks possess lineages that are clearly Germanic (3.5% of I1, so about 10% of Germanic overall with I2a2-L801, R1b-U106 and R1a-L664), Slavic (11% of R1a, which is overwhelmingly M458 and CTS1211) and Italo-Celtic (about 7% of R1b-U152 and 1% of G2a-L497).

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So some of the new invaders, like the Dorians and the Romans may have arrived with Mycenean-like DNA as well as you suggest. How does make the modern Greeks nothing like Myceneans? I would argue that Dorians and Romans were Mycenean-like as well. Or the Myceneans where Roman or Dorian like (take your pick). Just like South-Italians are Greek-like, but certainly not only because of Greek migrations. Assuming ofcourse that what you suggest is the case, which I have no objection to. It doesn't change the fact that modern Greeks are relatively close to Myceneans either way. But "nothing like the Myceneans" seems to me a bit of a stretch. In fact, the modern Greeks are very Mycenean-like and largely descentants of Myceneans. Also, still, in this research we compare the Myceneans with modern Greeks as a whole. But we have no sufficient information on Mycenean Greeks living in areas further North. I am going very deep down the rabbit whole right now, but how do we know that all Myceneans were the same. Perhaps proto-Greeks absorbed different peoples, and the Mycenean era Greeks were mostly represented by those Minoan type Greeks in the South, while further North there may have been Greek speaking tribes in the Mycenean era with a slightly different DNA make up. This however is of not much relevance at this point. Point of this paper however is that the people around the Aegean are essentially of the same melting pot for the last 5000 years or so.

On a side note, what do you suppose the Dorians' genetic make up may have been? Could they have carried R1a as well?

No war starts for a woman. This is just the romanticism in the whole story of Iliad. A war always starts for resources and space. If there were a Trojan war, this was because Achaeans wanted to expand.

In fact Menelaus had adopted primal forms of feminism, that he did not have his wife living in a room all day long. Kudos to the Spartan king for being such a nice man.

Angela said:

I can't stand Agamemnon what with his sacrificing his daughter, or his brother who can't control his flighty wife and so starts a terrible war because he's a cornuto. Not my idea of heroes.

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Diomedes said:

No war starts for a woman. This is just the romanticism in the whole story of Iliad. A war always starts for resources and space. If there were a Trojan war, this was because Achaeans wanted to expand.

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I agree, but, once again, my whole point was based on the personalities and cultures depicted in the Iliad and the Odyssey. (In this particular case it seems to have been control of the trade routes.)

It also would indeed by ironic if these two groups of people were genetically pretty similar, but then look at the Albanians and Greeks, at least some of them who post on this board. They're genetically similar too.

It must be something in the water around there.

Don't go far. How often have principalities in Italy fought against each other?

Angela said:

I agree, but, once again, my whole point was based on the personalities and cultures depicted in the Iliad and the Odyssey. (In this particular case it seems to have been control of the trade routes.)

It also would indeed by ironic if these two groups of people were genetically pretty similar, but then look at the Albanians and Greeks, at least some of them who post on this board. They're genetically similar too.

It must be something in the water around there.

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MOESAN said:

kind of digest:
8-10% of a warriors elite not organized like Romans has hard work to pass their language to autochtonous pops, I think. But at the time we suppose Mycenians arrived in Greece, I-E whatever its first geographic origin, was spoken in Central Europe by mixed pops; if as I BELIEVE (not KNOW) they arrived through Romania then Central Balkans from the Steppes, they surely had not more than a 40-45% steppic say 25-30% EHG roughly said, rather less. So "Mycenian" # first "Steppic". To complicate things they surely brought with them auDNA already present in Greece and Creta. IBD could help; but EHG were already present there. Finally I think I can guess the Mycenians weighted around 20% or 25% of the total pop.
at the mergin, I have the impression in South, in lands far from the steppes and from the social organization linked to them, the clannic males system didn't function so totally and that the Y-haplos were sometimes mixed, as if there had been passed partnership accords (!) with (well adapted and skilful?) predecessors (this South the Caucasus, Anatolia, or in Southern Europe where pops seemed having stayed more dense and numerous and less easily controlled by steppes newcomers. Just a feeling.

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I stay to the bold,

and consider this as came from nearby of Armenian higlands,
that is madness, except if J2 already knew IE, or IE homeland is among Armenia Syria Iran Black sea and kappadokia

Troyans had to be pretty similar genetically; Homer does not even mention any differences in language and of course they had been worshiping the same Gods. Half of them were actually backing up the Troyans.

Fire Haired14 said:

Etruscans DNA will show no or little Steppe ancestry. Ancient IE Italians will show a significant dose of Steppe. Ancient DNA from Italy and India will confirm Steppe people spread some IE languages. But only Hittite DNA can confirm PIE originated in the Steppe.

Does anyone really think it's a coincidence Myceneans look like Minoans with a tiny dose of Yamnaya?

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let me doupt,

in fact I believe that the Linguistic change of equus Ικκος to Hephew Ιππος is a clear mark that Umbria which is connected with Crete and Latio might have same with Myceneans or even less closer to Minoans, % of Steppe.

Ygorbr
Hi, Angela! I'm writing here for the first time, but have been reading the discussions here (and above all your posts) with interest for several months. I decided to write here now because I got really excited with the results of this study.

However, as just an amateur with an interest in history, linguistics and population genetics, I'm really in doubt about the likeliness of a scenario I've figured out here, which is the following.

Well, if: 1) the ancient Mycenaeans had 13% "steppe ancestry"; 2) they don't seem to have been established in Greece much before 2,000 BC, i.e. many centuries after the initial dispersal of Yamna-related peoples; and 3) that 13% percentage looks suspiciously low for such a stunning linguistic and cultural change (even though the Turkish precedent in Turkey is very suggestive here); then can we assume that Proto-Greek introgression possibly had a lot more impact than the EHG/"Steppe" numbers indicate, and that in fact they came directly from the mixed EEF+Steppe and a lot nearer Balkans or Carpathians?

Considering the very large populations of SE European cultures like Cucuteni-Tripolye by 4,000-3,000 BC, I wouldn't be surprised if later and probably Indo-European cultures (e.g. Cernavoda, Vucedol) nearby were only half steppe-like or even less, and certainly much less than half EHG. If that's the case, then the demographic impact of Mycenaeans could've been reasonably high, at 25%-30%.

What do you think? Your answer would be very appreciated.

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I'll give you the answer from the authors, which is what is really important, how about that?

""The amount of steppe ancestry is about ~13% when the Early/Middle Bronze Age group(“Yamnya/Afnasievo/Poltavka-related”) is used as a source (Steppe_EMBA), which is in harmony with our finding of ~7% EHG ancestry in Mycenaeans, as this group has about half of its ancestry from the EHG1,8,16.

The proportion is slightly higher when the Middle/Late Bronze Age(Steppe_MLBA) group (“Srubnaya/Andronovo/Sintashta-related”) is used as a source, and higher still when the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age populations from mainland Europe (Europe_LNBA) are used as a source, reflecting the fact that these have substantial European/Anatolian Neolithic-related ancestry1,8,20 which dilutes their EHG-related ancestry further.

We cannot distinguish which of these populations was a source for Mycenaeans (whether there was a migration directly from the steppe, from populations related to the Early, Middle/Late Bronze Age steppe, or an indirect migration from central Europe from steppe-influenced populations that were formed there during the Late/NeolithicBronze Age)."

(Of course, there's also the "Armenian" hypothesis, which they couldn't exclude statistically.)

Furthermore...

""However, we do notice that the model79%Minoan_Lasithi+21%Europe_LNBA tends to share more drift with Mycenaeans (at the |Z|>2level). Europe_LNBA is a diverse group of steppe-admixed Late Neolithic/Bronze Age individuals from mainland Europe, and we think that the further study of areas to the north of Greece might identify a surrogate for this admixture event – if, indeed, the Minoan_Lasithi+Europe_LNBA model represents the true history."

Notice, please, all the qualifiers...these are scientists. They either don't yet have or are at present unwilling to tell us of a good proximate source in the Balkans.

So, the amount of actual "admixture", and not, to emphasize, from any simplistic admixture like calculator, but from very sophisticated statistical modeling techniques by people who understand how they work because they created them would probably be around 20% from such a "proximate" source, which would be enough to effectuate linguistic change. I mean, if the "Hungarians" could do it in Hungary with even less genetic input, it could happen in Greece. We have to also keep in mind that like the "Hungarians", this intrusive group adopted much of the culture of the pre-existing population, as well as bringing in some additional elements of their own. Perhaps the effect of the "Turkish" migration to Anatolia might be a reasonably good example as well.

The confusion over this shows why precise definitions are so important, and people need to know them. When the authors wrote about Mycenaeans having 4-16% "steppe", they meant as in actual Yamnaya ancestry.

As to all the n-monte calculations floating around the internet, I take them with a big dose of salt. They're not precise because n-monte is not, imo, a very reliable tool given how dependent it is on the precise mix of populations used. Moreover, we may not have the adna for the "proximate" population, if there indeed was one.

Yetos said:

let me doupt,
in fact I believe that the Linguistic change of equus Ικκος to Hephew Ιππος is a clear mark that Umbria which is connected with Crete and Latio might have same with Myceneans or even less closer to Minoans, % of Steppe.

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Equus is Latin, not ancient Umbrian. And Latin Equus is thought to derive from proto-Italic *ekwos, that derives from Proto-Indo-European *h₁éḱwos (“horse”). It's a word connected to all the Indo-European languages. I don't think it can prove a specific connection.

Diomedes said:

Don't go far. How often have principalities in Italy fought against each other?

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How much bigger are the genetic differences between Sicilians/far Southern Italians and Lombards/Venetians/Piemontese, etc. than between most of the countries in the Balkans including Greece? How many Balkan style wars have there been between Northern Italy and Southern Italy in the last hundred years? That was a rhetorical question, of course; the answer is none.

Even six to seven hundred years ago in the Middle Ages we weren't trying to exterminate or ethnically cleanse each other.

Sorry, this is a particularly Balkan mess. You guys have to own it.

Now, this is off-topic, my fault for starting it, so if you wish to discuss it further, pm me. It doesn't belong on this thread.

well Lazarides is used to make us upset every time he publish.
Last year many were upset by his "Genomic insights into the origin of farming in the ancient Near East".
and this year with this one,

I must admit that his work ''took my pants'' and the soil under my ground,

I was used with the idea of yamnaa steppe IE
but considering his scenario that IE speakers Myceneans came from nearby Armenia highlands with so little Steppe,
I think it is time to reconsider many,
I do not know how even I can change some of my posts,
I feel an idiot,

cause if his scenario is Correct
then this is the map of IE langauges



and not only we might speak of J2 IE speakers,
and the model may expand to Italy to Latio Umbria even maybe Villabruna,
consider the P-Q change in Greek and Celto-Latin then I expect that same 'time' with Myceneans Latio, Umbria and i dare to say Villanova Villabruna might have same % and origin of origin admixture,
than Yamnaa or other Europe

I must admit
I always expected the minor Asia and back and back again,
But I never expected that the steppe % of Myceneans would be so little, and especially their origin

off the record
to push my secret inner thoughts
in fact we might have even a difference among J2a centum West part and J2b satem East part from that area and time.