The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

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Their 'Dark-Black' category doesn't seem to have anything to do with actual 'dark to black' skin.

You have a valid point here. When you read very dark to black you think automatically of this complexion.

black-skin-2-beauty-768x768.jpg

520px-Dress_(Klashorst)-cropped.jpg
 
Distribution of the SLC45A2 rs16891982 allele:

Absence of the SLC45A2 allele among some Europeans doesn't result in 'dark to black skin' or 'dark' skin.

And these Arab Bedouins despite tan and SSA admixture, are not really very dark to black.


851356c30de5f58dc9001b3ef12a81a0.png


middleeasternpeoples_header.jpg

a-portrait-of-an-arab-bedouin-man-from-the-town-of-al-azraq-in-the-CEXF5B.jpg

Abu-Khalid-Ammarin-Bedouin-from-Beidah-Jordan-2-e1362658589385.jpg
 
Keep in mind, however, that this is one snp, not the multiple snps used in the subject paper. OCA2, for example, which is not that common in Southern Europe, affects skin as well as eye color.

So, you think bottom line, that the prediction is correct, and that OCA2 is the reason why these Aegeans are even much darker than many modern Middle Easterners. Correct?
 
And these Arab Bedouins despite tan and SSA admixture, are not really very dark to black.


851356c30de5f58dc9001b3ef12a81a0.png


middleeasternpeoples_header.jpg

a-portrait-of-an-arab-bedouin-man-from-the-town-of-al-azraq-in-the-CEXF5B.jpg

Abu-Khalid-Ammarin-Bedouin-from-Beidah-Jordan-2-e1362658589385.jpg

Can we try to be precise? How do you know these are the Bedouin who are SSA admixed?
 
So, you think bottom line, that the prediction is correct, and that OCA2 is the reason why these Aegeans are even much darker than many modern Middle Easterners. Correct?

I never said anything like that. I think there is a possibility that there was an error in the determination of ancestral versus derived snps or in the inputting of the data into the algorithm.

The only way to find out is to ask.

Anyway, as the pictures from the Hirisplex site shows, dark is not very dark, and even if the prediction was "very dark" some gradations in the skin sample don't look that dark to me.
 
I never said anything like that. I think there is a possibility that there was an error in the determination of ancestral versus derived snps or in the inputting of the data into the algorithm.

The only way to find out is to ask.

Anyway, as the pictures from the Hirisplex site shows, dark is not very dark, and even if the prediction was "very dark" some gradations in the skin sample don't look that dark to me.

I'll try to contact the authors and hope they'll reply. But how likely is it, that professional genetics/researchers make a mistake in the determination of ancestral versus derived snps or in the inputting of the data into the algorithm? This paper was peer reviewed. The authors's claim though, that modern Greeks descend up to 90% from these steppe-admixed samples, is false. In addition to that, most people who read genetic studies don't look up the supplementary data, tables or the Hirisplex site, etc. Hence, what will stuck is that Ancient Greeks were very dark or black, and people will not think of Hirisplex very dark to black category, but they'll believe that Ancient Greeks looked like SSAs in terms of their complexion.
 
(…)
Finally, SNPs SLC24A5 rs1426654 and SLC45A2 rs16891982 were associated with fair skin, eyes, and hair and with melanoma. SLC24A5 rs1426654 (p.Thr111Ala) was first described in zebrafish as responsible for the golden phenotype due to a delay in melanin production during embryonic development [34]. In melanocyte cultures, homozygous GG leads to an increase in SLC24A5 gene transcripts and a consequent increase in tyrosinase activity and melanin production [35]. The decrease of G allele frequency is gradual from Africa to Europe, indicating that a selection pressure in favor of the A allele acted on the determination of fair skin in places where the intensity of UV radiation is lower [36, 37]. Evidence of natural selection makes this SNP a frequent component of ancestral and forensic informative panels [38]. In our study, we confirmed the association of the AA genotype with fair skin and light eyes. and we identified allelic frequencies consistent with those observed in European populations [3] and in previous studies of Brazilians from other regions [39]. Likewise, SNP SLC45A2 rs16891982 is also widely studied regarding its relationship with ***mentation in different populations. SLC45A2 encodes the membrane-associated transporter protein carrier involved in melanin synthesis, and experimental studies in zebrafish. Mice and yeast have clearly demonstrated that the presence of the missense variant rs16891982 (p.Phe374Leu) results in decreased protein activity [40]. This SNP is also considered an ancestry informative marker (AIM), since it is able to differentiate European populations due to G allele frequency. Which is similar to the rs1426654 A allele [41]. These findings are aligned with the theory of vitamin D synthesis. Which proposes that light skin is a feature selected to compensate for the lower solar incidence in populations living far from the Equator [42] and with increased ability of the skin to respond to ultra violet (UV) radiation [43].
(…)

This is an extract from these paper:


[h=1]Skin ***mentation polymorphisms associated with increased risk of melanoma in a case-control sample from southern Brazil[/h]
  • Larissa B. Reis,
  • Renato M. Bakos,
  • […]
  • Patricia Ashton-ProllaBMC Cancer volume 20, Article number: 1069 (2020)Cite this article

    [h=2]Abstract[/h][h=3]Background[/h]Melanoma is the most aggressive type of skin cancer and is associated with environmental and genetic risk factors. It originates in melanocytes, the ***ment-producing cells. Single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) in ***mentation genes have been described in melanoma risk modulation, but knowledge in the field is still limited.
    [h=3]Methods[/h]In a case-control approach (107 cases and 119 controls), we investigated the effect of four ***mentation gene SNPs (TYR rs1126809, HERC2 rs1129038, SLC24A5 rs1426654, and SLC45A2 rs16891982) on melanoma risk in individuals from southern Brazil using a multivariate logistic regression model and multifactor dimensionality reduction (MDR) analysis.
    [h=3]Results[/h]Two SNPs were associated with an increased risk of melanoma in a dominant model: rs1129038AA and rs1426654AA [OR = 2.094 (95% CI: 1.106–3.966), P = 2.3 10− 2 and OR = 7.126 (95% CI: 1.873–27.110), P = 4.0 10− 3, respectively]. SNP rs16891982CC was associated with a lower risk to melanoma development in a log-additive model when the allele C was inherited [OR = 0.081 (95% CI: 0.008–0.782), P = 3 10− 2]. In addition, MDR analysis showed that the combination of the rs1426654AA and rs16891982GG genotypes was associated with a higher risk for melanoma (P = 3 10− 3), with a redundant effect.
    [h=3]Conclusions[/h]These results contribute to the current knowledge and indicate that epistatic interaction of these SNPs, with an additive or correlational effect, may be involved in modulating the risk of melanoma in individuals from a geographic region with a high incidence of the disease.



PS:
I usually look white in the day-by-day of my homeland, but when I stay in Rio de Janeiro for about 2 weeks I return to my homeland in BH with the color of a Tuareg. My wife and son are unable to achieve this feat (stay tanned). They turn pink and have to use a daily sun blocker ‘protection factor 50+. The family dermatologist, Dr. Ana, always tells me that I should do the same, but my answer to her is always the same: Showing her my forearm, I tell her that there is no need because I am not white. This is the moment when she tells me to take my shirt off and She takes the chance to reprimand me in a short sermon. Than, I remember Mr. Michael Jackson. Black or White. In my case, none of the two cases, I think.

Me:

Gene SLC45A2
rs16891982CG
Gene SLC24A5
rs1426654AA
 
Are you all really so concerned about the skin color of the Mycenaeans? Is this the only interesting thing you have found in this latest paper on Greece?

Blacks, half-blacks, blacks tending to be dark, dark tending to be black, pale Italians like the Swedes, half-pale French like the English, half-blond Greeks like the Norwegians, Finns who look like Egyptians, white or black Egyptian mummies, Arabs not so dark, Belgians not so blond, dark Hispanics like American Indians, blond Argentines with Armenian blood, olive-skinned Spaniards, blond Basques, Sicilians who don't want to be Levantines, Englishmen who think that the more Yamnaya blood they have, the more white they are, Italians who don't want to be Levantines, Slavs who think they are part of the Aryan race, Greeks who want to be neither Turks nor Slavs, Poles who are horrified because Yamnaya riders have 50% Iranian or Caucasian blood, Calabrians who pretend to be descendants of the Goths, Americans who pretend to be 100% European, blond Bulgarians who think they are Nordic, dark-haired Walloons who look like Romanians, morons who think that the more steppe ancestry you have the blonder you will be, South Americans worried because they are not and do not look white, North Americans from Massachusetts who would commit suicide if they found out that they had a drop of Indian or black blood, Italian-Americans who would kill anyone who said they were not as white as the Poles, Jews who pretend to be 100% Levantine etc etc etc.

Come on guys, if you are really so worried, why don't you divide Europe and the rest of the world in blond countries with blue eyes, brown countries with brown eyes, black countries, half black countries, half blond countries, Indian countries, Hispanic countries, half Hispanic countries, Asian countries or half Asian countries, and then everybody will be clear about which race, people etc. belong to?

After reading hundreds of posts of this style in many internet forums, I have decided that we Basques are not white people, nor do we want to be, we have African, Levantine, Iranian, Phoenician, Roman, Gothic, Anatolian, and even Chinese blood, if the northwestern Europeans want to monopolize whiteness and belittle other Europeans for being more or less swarthy I think they should immediately go to a psychiatrist and should be accompanied by all those Europeans with complexes who try to discuss who is whiter or browner. I like wine, olive oil, bullfights, hunting, the festivities of San Fermin and beautiful women, and the most beautiful ones I have seen are in Cuba, a mixture of Spaniards, blacks and Indians so, in my opinion, the more mixed the people are the more interesting and attractive people you will find.

We have three half black Mycenaeans, who cares if they had one of the most advanced bronze age cultures in Europe when the Nordics were still in their balls trying to find some fish to eat?

By the way, does anyone still think that R1b-P312 is responsible for the spread of the IE language in mainland Europe, or that certain male markers were determinant in that process? Does anybody have any explanation for the absence of R1b-M269 in Greece (Neolithic, Chalcolithic or Bronze Age) and yet Greek is an Indo-European language?
 
Are you all really so concerned about the skin color of the Mycenaeans? Is this the only interesting thing you have found in this latest paper on Greece?

Blacks, half-blacks, blacks tending to be dark, dark tending to be black, pale Italians like the Swedes, half-pale French like the English, half-blond Greeks like the Norwegians, Finns who look like Egyptians, white or black Egyptian mummies, Arabs not so dark, Belgians not so blond, dark Hispanics like American Indians, blond Argentines with Armenian blood, olive-skinned Spaniards, blond Basques, Sicilians who don't want to be Levantines, Englishmen who think that the more Yamnaya blood they have, the more white they are, Italians who don't want to be Levantines, Slavs who think they are part of the Aryan race, Greeks who want to be neither Turks nor Slavs, Poles who are horrified because Yamnaya riders have 50% Iranian or Caucasian blood, Calabrians who pretend to be descendants of the Goths, Americans who pretend to be 100% European, blond Bulgarians who think they are Nordic, dark-haired Walloons who look like Romanians, morons who think that the more steppe ancestry you have the blonder you will be, South Americans worried because they are not and do not look white, North Americans from Massachusetts who would commit suicide if they found out that they had a drop of Indian or black blood, Italian-Americans who would kill anyone who said they were not as white as the Poles, Jews who pretend to be 100% Levantine etc etc etc.

Come on guys, if you are really so worried, why don't you divide Europe and the rest of the world in blond countries with blue eyes, brown countries with brown eyes, black countries, half black countries, half blond countries, Indian countries, Hispanic countries, half Hispanic countries, Asian countries or half Asian countries, and then everybody will be clear about which race, people etc. belong to?

After reading hundreds of posts of this style in many internet forums, I have decided that we Basques are not white people, nor do we want to be, we have African, Levantine, Iranian, Phoenician, Roman, Gothic, Anatolian, and even Chinese blood, if the northwestern Europeans want to monopolize whiteness and belittle other Europeans for being more or less swarthy I think they should immediately go to a psychiatrist and should be accompanied by all those Europeans with complexes who try to discuss who is whiter or browner. I like wine, olive oil, bullfights, hunting, the festivities of San Fermin and beautiful women, and the most beautiful ones I have seen are in Cuba, a mixture of Spaniards, blacks and Indians so, in my opinion, the more mixed the people are the more interesting and attractive people you will find.

We have three half black Mycenaeans, who cares if they had one of the most advanced bronze age cultures in Europe when the Nordics were still in their balls trying to find some fish to eat?

By the way, does anyone still think that R1b-P312 is responsible for the spread of the IE language in mainland Europe, or that certain male markers were determinant in that process? Does anybody have any explanation for the absence of R1b-M269 in Greece (Neolithic, Chalcolithic or Bronze Age) and yet Greek is an Indo-European language?

Not only is this post misguided, it is wrong on several points. Nevertheless, we are not here to discuss social issues or make inflammatory inferences. We are here to strictly discuss the paper.

Genetically, these samples have absolutely nothing to do with SSA, so the fact that they may be dark-skinned doesn't mean they are black. Just like how it doesn't mean Chedder man was SSA, because he was dark skinned. Black and White are nebulous outmoded constructs not based on genetics, which we have discussed on this site, ad nauseum. If you want to discuss that, please search for another thread dedicated to that topic.
 
Does anybody have any explanation for the absence of R1b-M269 in Greece (Neolithic, Chalcolithic or Bronze Age) and yet Greek is an Indo-European language?

Well both of the Middle Bronze Age samples were women, and we only have one male sample from the Mycenaean period. So that's not much to go on.
 
i am going to tell something
this is a leak .....
r1b was found in early bronze age north albania (i saw it in serbian dna forum )
i don't know the details when i will know more i will post it ...
2 samples from bronze age north albania :
early bronze age r1b
middle bronze age j2b


Добио сам прелиминарне резултате једног истраживања старе ДНК на простору Албаније. Немам детаљнијих информација (лабораторија, датум објављивања студије и сл). Зна се само да је прва тура са севера Албаније, док ће друга бити са југа.

Неки од резултата

Северна Албанија, Рано бронзано доба: R1b-PF7563

Северна Албанија, Средње бронзано доба/Касно бронзано доба: J2b2-M241



I received preliminary results from an old DNA study in Albania. I do not have more detailed information (laboratory, date of publication of the study, etc.). It is only known that the first tour is from the north of Albania, while the second will be from the south.


Some of the results


Northern Albania, Early Bronze Age: R1b-PF7563


Northern Albania, Middle Bronze Age / Late Bronze Age: J2b2-M241
 
Are you all really so concerned about the skin color of the Mycenaeans? Is this the only interesting thing you have found in this latest paper on Greece?

Blacks, half-blacks, blacks tending to be dark, dark tending to be black, pale Italians like the Swedes, half-pale French like the English, half-blond Greeks like the Norwegians, Finns who look like Egyptians, white or black Egyptian mummies, Arabs not so dark, Belgians not so blond, dark Hispanics like American Indians, blond Argentines with Armenian blood, olive-skinned Spaniards, blond Basques, Sicilians who don't want to be Levantines, Englishmen who think that the more Yamnaya blood they have, the more white they are, Italians who don't want to be Levantines, Slavs who think they are part of the Aryan race, Greeks who want to be neither Turks nor Slavs, Poles who are horrified because Yamnaya riders have 50% Iranian or Caucasian blood, Calabrians who pretend to be descendants of the Goths, Americans who pretend to be 100% European, blond Bulgarians who think they are Nordic, dark-haired Walloons who look like Romanians, morons who think that the more steppe ancestry you have the blonder you will be, South Americans worried because they are not and do not look white, North Americans from Massachusetts who would commit suicide if they found out that they had a drop of Indian or black blood, Italian-Americans who would kill anyone who said they were not as white as the Poles, Jews who pretend to be 100% Levantine etc etc etc.

Come on guys, if you are really so worried, why don't you divide Europe and the rest of the world in blond countries with blue eyes, brown countries with brown eyes, black countries, half black countries, half blond countries, Indian countries, Hispanic countries, half Hispanic countries, Asian countries or half Asian countries, and then everybody will be clear about which race, people etc. belong to?

After reading hundreds of posts of this style in many internet forums, I have decided that we Basques are not white people, nor do we want to be, we have African, Levantine, Iranian, Phoenician, Roman, Gothic, Anatolian, and even Chinese blood, if the northwestern Europeans want to monopolize whiteness and belittle other Europeans for being more or less swarthy I think they should immediately go to a psychiatrist and should be accompanied by all those Europeans with complexes who try to discuss who is whiter or browner. I like wine, olive oil, bullfights, hunting, the festivities of San Fermin and beautiful women, and the most beautiful ones I have seen are in Cuba, a mixture of Spaniards, blacks and Indians so, in my opinion, the more mixed the people are the more interesting and attractive people you will find.

We have three half black Mycenaeans, who cares if they had one of the most advanced bronze age cultures in Europe when the Nordics were still in their balls trying to find some fish to eat?

By the way, does anyone still think that R1b-P312 is responsible for the spread of the IE language in mainland Europe, or that certain male markers were determinant in that process? Does anybody have any explanation for the absence of R1b-M269 in Greece (Neolithic, Chalcolithic or Bronze Age) and yet Greek is an Indo-European language?

Gaska, seriously? I hope you didn't join the SJW bandwagon, and woke folks who always use shaming tactics to tell people that they are committing a heinous sin by being interested in skin color or phenotype. And please stop bringing up Nordicism that nobody here is promoting. Besides, I was open to your criticism concerning geneticists and their flawed studies concerning the Steppe theory, and the origin of R1b. In spite not entirely agreeing with your arguments, I didn't outright dismiss your assertion, that R1b originated in Western Europe instead of the Steppe. Plus, I didn't get personal by accusing you of being anti-Eastern European or a Yamanya- hater. Be more charitable, and let people be interested in whatever they want. We don’t need thought police and a PC brigade on a forum about human genetics and anthropology. Besides, I explained in depth why I find the result a bit odd. I never expected the Mycenaeans, BA Greeks to be blond Northern European or lily-white, but I did expect them to be how they described themselves to be- "intermediate". Anyway, you don’t need to be disrespectful to blond people and their ancestors. And all Europeans whether light or dark share more or less the same distant ancestors. Hence, to me Europeaness is not define by being ghostly white and lacking "color". What do you mean by half black Mycenaeans, there are none in this paper?
 
i am going to tell something
this is a leak .....
r1b was found in early bronze age north albania (i saw it in serbian dna forum )
i don't know the details when i will know more i will post it ...
2 samples from bronze age north albania :
early bronze age r1b
middle bronze age j2b


Добио сам прелиминарне резултате једног истраживања старе ДНК на простору Албаније. Немам детаљнијих информација (лабораторија, датум објављивања студије и сл). Зна се само да је прва тура са севера Албаније, док ће друга бити са југа.

Неки од резултата

Северна Албанија, Рано бронзано доба: R1b-PF7563

Северна Албанија, Средње бронзано доба/Касно бронзано доба: J2b2-M241



I received preliminary results from an old DNA study in Albania. I do not have more detailed information (laboratory, date of publication of the study, etc.). It is only known that the first tour is from the north of Albania, while the second will be from the south.


Some of the results


Northern Albania, Early Bronze Age: R1b-PF7563


Northern Albania, Middle Bronze Age / Late Bronze Age: J2b2-M241


Thanks for sharing.

R1b-PF7563 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7563/


J2b2-M241 https://yfull.com/tree/J-M241/
 
Well both of the Middle Bronze Age samples were women, and we only have one male sample from the Mycenaean period. So that's not much to go on.

We already have many samples from the Greek Neolithic and at the moment R1b-M269 (both R1b-Z2103 and L51 are missing). Regarding the chalcolithic and the bronze age we have some samples and there is no R1b-M269.

Pta08 (2.735 BC)-Petras, Crete-Minoan Culture-EBA-HapY-G2a2b-L30-Mit-H
Kou01 (2.407 BC)-Koufonisi, Greece, Cycladic-EBA-HapY-J2a1a-L26-Mit-K1a2/c
I9130 (2.400 BC)-Moni Odigitria, Heraklion, Crete-HapY-G2a2b/2-Mit-U3b3
I0070 (1.850 BC)-Hagios Charambolos Cave, Lasithi, Crete-HapY-J2a1d-Mit-H13a1
I0073 (1.850 BC)-Hagios Charambolos Cave, Lasithi, Crete- HapY-J2a1-Mit-H
I9041 (1.450 BC)-Galatas Apatheia, Mycenean Culture-HapY-J2a1a-Z6057-Mit-X2-

Anatolia,

MA2212 (2.500 BC)- Ovaören-Topakhöyük HapY-J2a-M410-Mit-W5
MA2205 (1.875 BC)- Kaman-Kalehöyük-HapY-J2a1-L26-Mit-J2b1
MA2208-09 (1.875 BC)- Kaman-Kalehöyük-HapY-G2a2b/1-G-M406-Mit-H6a1/b2e
MA2200-01 (1.625 BC)- Kaman-Kalehöyük-HapY-J2a1-L26-Mit-K1a@150

It is true that we do not have many samples, but they could be enough to give us an idea of ​​what is happening because we have the two regions where the first written IE languages ​​(Greek and Hittite) have been found linked to a J2a and not r1b-M269. Perhaps the steppe theory as explained by Harvard is wrong? Maybe some other male marker participated? Maybe the origin of IE is not in the steppes?

Of course I do not have the solution and since my mother tongue is not Indo-European It is not a matter that worries me much, but while those prestigious researchers could not prove the link of R1b-M269 (whatever the subclade involved) with the different IE languages, I I will always think that at the moment it is only a fairy tale.
 
I have no idea why you are fixated on two rare mummies compared to all the others, and not to the way the Egyptians depicted themselves. It's illogical. You don't make judgments about an entire population based on 5%, if even that, of the samples.

If you want to make a big deal of it, it's your prerogative. Imo it is completely illogical and I will not discuss it further.

As for the skin tone of Italians, I have every skin de***mentation allele in the book, and as a result am predicted to be very fair. It's true; can't tan, burn, get sun poisoning, have to wear the lightest skin foundation on the market.

THAT is NOT common even in my part of Italy, far less so in the south. Southern Italians very, very rarely have "pink" undertones. A large percentage have olive undertones, as I showed above, even if they're much "fairer" in the winter.

ONE factor, among others, is that there hasn't been a total sweep for derived SLC45A2 yet.
I
1kLElNh.png


ktUe5fx.png


This all bears out my experience of these people. I've seen some quite dark Portuguese for example.

Keep in mind, however, that this is one snp, not the multiple snps used in the subject paper. OCA2, for example, which is not that common in Southern Europe, affects skin as well as eye color.

Thracians were not Greeks. Period. The ***mentation of one is not the ***mentation of others.
Actually it is the first time I reply in this thread, and because I had the impression that there is some mistaken, vague idea about southern Europeans' ***mentation from the part of a user from Germany, which is comprehensible because I've noticed online that the "seasonability" of our skin tone can confuse some people that usually don't experience such variability. I've seen it even from scholars from America that interpreted some characters, Odysseus himself and Eurybates, from the Odissey as "black" because the word used to describe their skin is "μελανόχροος", which in my Italian version is translated as "bruno", an adjective meaning "brown" but when used to refer to persons' skin means "leathery tanned", presumably because those scholars had in mind their social realities, that is attaching "fair-skinned" to northwest Europeans and "dark-skinned" to afro-americans, while both adjectives attached to Greeks would mean more something close "on the lighter type of spectrum" and "tanned" in most cases, at least if referred to men. Also, call it a reason by analogy, but I hold that the evidence so far makes it the most plausible opinion to hold that Thracians' ***mentation would have been the same as that of the Greeks.

Unfortunately, the thing with talking about skin tone is that the terms are very vague, so here it is how I use them: by "pinkish" I refer to a skin that is naturally, when untanned, like that of Federica Lazzara's, miss Sicilia, and virtually it is the same skin I've seen in all the women I've seen in my life, and given I've always lived in Sicily, I think I am in a good position to make the statement. The undertone is something different from the tone or ***mentation, which is what I referred to (in the chart it would be between "pale" and "intermediate", as the majority of Sardinians themselves resulted[P.S. "as the majority of Sardinians..." refers to "intermediate"]), and I would mean by "olive skin" a tone that is brown/light-brown untanned
.
iu

Returning to the point of discussion, I agree that it is pointless to talk about it because the two plausible options are that either the analysis is wrong or if genuine it would mean that light skin was being under selection during that period, and there's no way one could add anything of meaning to settle the question.
 
i am going to tell something
this is a leak .....
r1b was found in early bronze age north albania (i saw it in serbian dna forum )
i don't know the details when i will know more i will post it ...
2 samples from bronze age north albania :
early bronze age r1b
middle bronze age j2b


Добио сам прелиминарне резултате једног истраживања старе ДНК на простору Албаније. Немам детаљнијих информација (лабораторија, датум објављивања студије и сл). Зна се само да је прва тура са севера Албаније, док ће друга бити са југа.

Неки од резултата

Северна Албанија, Рано бронзано доба: R1b-PF7563

Северна Албанија, Средње бронзано доба/Касно бронзано доба: J2b2-M241



I received preliminary results from an old DNA study in Albania. I do not have more detailed information (laboratory, date of publication of the study, etc.). It is only known that the first tour is from the north of Albania, while the second will be from the south.


Some of the results


Northern Albania, Early Bronze Age: R1b-PF7563


Northern Albania, Middle Bronze Age / Late Bronze Age: J2b2-M241

The Rrenjet Project in fact has over 1,100 results thus far :) and around 800 of them are exclusively members only at Rrenjet and processed in companies FTDNA, YSEQ and Dantelabs. A similar database is also being put together of Mitochondrial lines in Albania, its only around 150 results thus far.
It seems that people are giving opinion on the origin of Albanians without basing their arguments on actual data.
Albanians have very good diversity of both E-v13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563. It is clear based on the data that there is a continuation of bronze and IA male lines despite the fact that there is a strong genetic bottleneck that fits with the fall of the roman empire and slavic migration to the balkans.
There are now two projects from the Albanian archeologists in partnership with western counterparts on testing ancient remains from archeological sites in Albania. Preliminary results from one of these projects confirm this bronze age continuity for PF7563 and J2b2. Later this year or next year they will publish results.

Bit unfair you attributing this leak to a Serbian forum when Gjergj posted this 1-2 weeks ago in a thread that you commented yourself.
 
@Real expert said-Gaska, seriously? I hope you didn't join the SJW bandwagon, and woke folks who always use shaming tactics to tell people that they are committing a heinous sin by being interested in skin color or phenotype. And please stop bringing up Nordicism that nobody here is promoting.

I don`t know what is the SJW bandwagon, and of course I'm a long way from being a leftist. I don't like the globalists who think that Europe should become a multiracial continent, but I also don't like the debates about who is more blond, taller, more handsome or in which country there are more people with blue eyes. People should travel more and put aside stereotypes and prejudices. The matter of the darkness of the Mycenaeans seems of little importance to me although I recognize that there may be people interested in finding out the phenotype of our European ancestors, but I think that these topics are handled in a polite and respectful way. That's why I joke about the amount of people who say stupid things on the Internet, and how they project their complexes on people who approach these forums in a naive way.

@Real expert said-Besides, I was open to your criticism concerning geneticists and their flawed studies concerning the Steppe theory, and the origin of R1b. In spite not entirely agreeing with your arguments, I didn't outright dismiss your assertion, that R1b originated in Western Europe instead of the Steppe. Plus, I didn't get personal by accusing you of being anti-Eastern European or a Yamanya- hater.

My ideas about the origin of R1b and more specifically R1b-L51> P312 are publicly known, I like to discuss them with people who truly understand genetics and I will have no problem admitting that I have been wrong if someone is able to prove it.

Yamnaya hater? Not especially, but it bothers me the way the Nordicists use this culture to try to impose an absurd and senseless supremacism


@Real expert said-Be more charitable, and let people be interested in whatever they want. We don’t need thought police and a PC brigade on a forum about human genetics and anthropology. Besides, I explained in depth why I find the result a bit odd. I never expected the Mycenaeans, BA Greeks to be blond Northern European or lily-white, but I did expect them to be how they described themselves to be- "intermediate". Anyway, you don’t need to be disrespectful to blond people and their ancestors. And all Europeans whether light or dark share more or less the same distant ancestors. Hence, to me Europeaness is not define by being ghostly white and lacking "color". What do you mean by half black Mycenaeans, there are none in this paper?

Autosomically some Mycenaeans from Lazaridis paper can be modeled with some African blood, and this study has shown that there could be migrants or slaves of African origin in the Balkans BA (hence they have reported a case of Mit-L3). Therefore it does not surprise me that some of them cannot be classified as fair skinned, although I believe that other samples will be, because in the Bronze Age the phenotypes in Europe were as varied as they are today. (I have given the example of two cases from the Bronze Age in Iberia, one blonde in Asturias and other with brown hair in Argar culture)- Then we have people with blue eyes or brown eyes all over Europe both in prehistory and today. That is why I have not given too much importance to swarthy Mycenaeans
 
@Real expert said-Gaska, seriously? I hope you didn't join the SJW bandwagon, and woke folks who always use shaming tactics to tell people that they are committing a heinous sin by being interested in skin color or phenotype. And please stop bringing up Nordicism that nobody here is promoting.

I don`t know what is the SJW bandwagon, and of course I'm a long way from being a leftist. I don't like the globalists who think that Europe should become a multiracial continent, but I also don't like the debates about who is more blond, taller, more handsome or in which country there are more people with blue eyes. People should travel more and put aside stereotypes and prejudices. The matter of the darkness of the Mycenaeans seems of little importance to me although I recognize that there may be people interested in finding out the phenotype of our European ancestors, but I think that these topics are handled in a polite and respectful way. That's why I joke about the amount of people who say stupid things on the Internet, and how they project their complexes on people who approach these forums in a naive way.

@Real expert said-Besides, I was open to your criticism concerning geneticists and their flawed studies concerning the Steppe theory, and the origin of R1b. In spite not entirely agreeing with your arguments, I didn't outright dismiss your assertion, that R1b originated in Western Europe instead of the Steppe. Plus, I didn't get personal by accusing you of being anti-Eastern European or a Yamanya- hater.

My ideas about the origin of R1b and more specifically R1b-L51> P312 are publicly known, I like to discuss them with people who truly understand genetics and I will have no problem admitting that I have been wrong if someone is able to prove it.

Yamnaya hater? Not especially, but it bothers me the way the Nordicists use this culture to try to impose an absurd and senseless supremacism


@Real expert said-Be more charitable, and let people be interested in whatever they want. We don’t need thought police and a PC brigade on a forum about human genetics and anthropology. Besides, I explained in depth why I find the result a bit odd. I never expected the Mycenaeans, BA Greeks to be blond Northern European or lily-white, but I did expect them to be how they described themselves to be- "intermediate". Anyway, you don’t need to be disrespectful to blond people and their ancestors. And all Europeans whether light or dark share more or less the same distant ancestors. Hence, to me Europeaness is not define by being ghostly white and lacking "color". What do you mean by half black Mycenaeans, there are none in this paper?

Autosomically some Mycenaeans from Lazaridis paper can be modeled with some African blood, and this study has shown that there could be migrants or slaves of African origin in the Balkans BA (hence they have reported a case of Mit-L3). Therefore it does not surprise me that some of them cannot be classified as fair skinned, although I believe that other samples will be, because in the Bronze Age the phenotypes in Europe were as varied as they are today. (I have given the example of two cases from the Bronze Age in Iberia, one blonde in Asturias and other with brown hair in Argar culture)- Then we have people with blue eyes or brown eyes all over Europe both in prehistory and today. That is why I have not given too much importance to swarthy Mycenaeans


Wait... Did I miss something? Which one of the samples is African :O ?
 
We already have many samples from the Greek Neolithic and at the moment R1b-M269 (both R1b-Z2103 and L51 are missing). Regarding the chalcolithic and the bronze age we have some samples and there is no R1b-M269.

Pta08 (2.735 BC)-Petras, Crete-Minoan Culture-EBA-HapY-G2a2b-L30-Mit-H
Kou01 (2.407 BC)-Koufonisi, Greece, Cycladic-EBA-HapY-J2a1a-L26-Mit-K1a2/c
I9130 (2.400 BC)-Moni Odigitria, Heraklion, Crete-HapY-G2a2b/2-Mit-U3b3
I0070 (1.850 BC)-Hagios Charambolos Cave, Lasithi, Crete-HapY-J2a1d-Mit-H13a1
I0073 (1.850 BC)-Hagios Charambolos Cave, Lasithi, Crete- HapY-J2a1-Mit-H
I9041 (1.450 BC)-Galatas Apatheia, Mycenean Culture-HapY-J2a1a-Z6057-Mit-X2-


I don't know anyone who's arguing that Greek speakers arrived in the Neolithic with R1b-M269, or that the Minoans were R1b-M269-carrying Indo-Europeans, so what you posted isn't really relevant.

The main theories as far as I'm aware are that Greek speakers arrived c.2200-2000 BC or c.1700 BC.
 
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