Demetrios
Regular Member
- Messages
- 456
- Reaction score
- 118
- Points
- 0
- Location
- Ἀθῆναι
- Ethnic group
- Ἕλλην
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- I2a-Y18331 > A2512*
@tyuiopman
You write, "Very interesting stuff, Demetrios!".
Thanks.
You write, "A few other possible connections that I've read:
The Urartian god Khaldi (sometimes written Haldi) may have been related to Helios, the -di possibly being the Classical Armenian word for "god." It should be noted that Khaldi is presumed to be a loan into the Urartian pantheon, possibly from the Akkadians.".
I have read of this hypothesis which i find interesting but i have a different view when it comes to "Ἥλιος" (Hḗlios). The original proto-Greek was ᾱ̓ϝέλιος (hāwélios), which had actually survived in the ancient Cretan dialect. In the other Dorian dialects as well as the Aeolic and Arcadocypriot it had evolved as ᾱ̓έλιος (hāélios), while in Ionic, Attic, Koine, and Modern as "ἥλιος" (hḗlios). Etymologically it could be of either pre-Greek or IE origin, and both have been suggested.
Furthermore, i see the name of the Urartian god "Khaldi" as a cognate of the very interesting pre-IE Anatolian people known as "Khaldi/Haldi/Chaldoi/Chalybes". These people seem to have been related to pre-IE Hatti (of whom their name could be a cognate), Hayašans (of whom their name could be a cognate), and maybe Hurro-Urartians as well. Their name is certainly related to the Hattic word "ḫapalki" (in Hurrian "ḫabalgi") which means hard iron, namely "steel", hence the Greek word "χάλυψ/χάλυβας" (chalyps/chalybas) which translates as "steel". As a sidenote, a famous etymology of Hayašans is also related to metals through PIE áyos (metal). Could these roots be related as a result of a pre-proto-language, or because one influenced the other, i don't know but it is an interesting correlation. They (Chaldoi) played a central role in the initiation of the Iron Age, which in their case had began some 1000 years earlier than the official chronology. Interestingly enough, it's not accidental that iron/steel began spreading after the collapse of the Hittite Empire, which had subjugated the aforementioned people and valued their knowledge as a State secret. This is something very few people know or notice.
In any case, i also believe that "Khaldi" (God) could be related to Graeco-Armenian or broader Indo-European for that matter, since we also have Greek "Δίας" (Días - alternative name of Zeus) and Latin "Deus" (God or deity) among others. At least for the last syllable. Along the same lines, i also find interesting that the Mycenaean Linear B (adapted from Minoan Linear A) sign for the syllable "KA/KHA/CHA" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B#/media/File:Linear_B_Syllable_B077_KA.svg) is the famous solar symbol known as the "Sun cross" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_cross). Who knows, maybe "Khaldi" translates as "Sun God" or "Heavenly God" or "Heavenly Father" or "Divine Sun".
It is also of interest to note that the Mycenaean Linear B word for copper is "KA-KO", while in later Greek copper became "χαλκός" (chalkos). Μaybe the root is related to the etymology of the aforementioned metal folks. Could add more but my answer is too compacted, just providing ideas.
You write, "There is a theory that Artemis was of Hurrian origins. (https://pies.ucla.edu/IESV/1/VVI_Horse.pdf)".
You had proposed that in the past as well but i wasn't very fond of it back then. In any case, i just went through the aforementioned Ivanov paper and i found his arguments compelling. It can very well be the case, especially onomatologically.
You write, "There is a theory that Diana was a form of Anahid (perhaps the name was considered too holy and said backwards--Diana backwards is Anaid).".
I have a different view on this. "Diana" seems to be a cognate of the Indo-European root i mentioned above which pertains to "God, deity, or divine". There is also an interesting correlation to Greek "Διώνη" (Dione) which is viewed as the female side/counterpart of "Δίας" (Días - alternative name of Zeus). Both of them were actually venerated as patron/matron deities in the oldest Greek oracle and second in prestige after the one of Delphi, namely the one at Dodona. They represented a syzygy, namely a pair of opposites like Yin and Yang in Chinese philosophy. Syncretistically their case is similar to the Latin Janus and Jana, Jupiter (equivalent of Zeus) and Juno (equivalent of Hera - wife of Zeus), or the twins Apollo (same in Greek) and Diana (equivalent of Artemis) which are most probably an anachronistic archetype of the same story. It's not accidental that Apollo and Diana/Artemis are also Gods of the Sun and Moon respectively, and we all know of the symbolic duality attached to these astronomical objects.
Last, there were many characters with the name "Διώνη" (Dione) in Greek mythology as you can read here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dione_(mythology). I only mention the above version because it is so emphatically related to the aforementioned IE root for "God, deity, or divine", being the counterpart for the King of the Gods, namely "Δίας" (Días).
You write, "There is a somewhat popular, but far from universally accepted, theory that Hurro-Urartian was somehow connected to Etruscan. If they made it to Italy why couldn't some of them have stayed in the Greek islands along the way?".
The whole Etruscan story is very complicated, i cannot really comment on that now. I would wait until the upcoming Italian studies get published as it concerns their genetics. But personally i am more of the view that the majority of Etruscans were largely indigenous or broadly northern Italian, also taking into account the related Rhaetian language that was spoken in the eastern Alps. Now, that doesn't negate the possibility of being related to Hurro-Urartian, if we look at it from a Neolithic or Chalcolithic/Eneolithic context. But for now all these are far from universally accepted and certainly hypothetical.
You write, "Just saw the above Trialeti link. Researchers seem to be veering toward Trialeti-Vanadzor being Indo-European, or at least having an Indo-European element. I think it's very likely that they were the Proto-Armenians. They expanded throughout modern Armenian and about as far west as Erzerum, Turkey. Soon after they "disappeared" Hayasa-Azzi materialized in modern NE Turkey. I suspect that Trialeti-Vanadzor either transitioned into Hayasa (perhaps the tribes confederated to protect themselves from the Hittites and/or Assyrians) in the mid-2nd millennium BCE or were already called Hayasa, but the Hittite records from the mid-2nd millennium are merely the first (or first surviving) records of that name. Hayasa is presumably a Hittite rendering of Hayk'/Hayastan, both Armenian names for Armenia.".
It is a nice hypothesis. But is there any archaeological corroboration in order to associate Trialeti-Vanadzor to Hayasa-Azzi? Furthermore, i also consider the possibility that Hayk/Hayastan could be a pre-Armenian adoption by proto-Armenians, maybe i am wrong though. I am certainly not jumping to conclusions on this because the etymologies are mixed, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%B0%D5%A1%D5%B5#Old_Armenian. In any case, that doesn't mean they are relatively different people, i am only referring to the language here. Proto-Armenian could have been adopted by pre-Armenian people, while they kept their original pre-Armenian name. But again, this is just a hypothesis which also takes into account the Armenian autosomal profile.
You write, "The question is, did Trialeti-Vanadzor, if indeed Indo-European, come from the direct north or come from the west. The potentially Armenian-like DNA component in the Mycenaean genetic results suggests to me that it's possible that the Greco-Armenians came from the north. However, they could also have come from eastern Europe.
Have there been DNA analysis of Trialeti-Vanadzor specimen?".
Well. We do have two samples from Kaps in north-western Armenia dated earlier, at approximately 3000 BCE, if they help. They are designated as Kura-Araxes, and they are a male and a female. The male belongs to Y-DNA G2b and mtDNA K3, while the female to mtDNA R1a1. AtDNA shows that they were relatively indigenous and hadn't migrated from the North, belonging to a profile that the respective genetic study, namely "The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus" (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/05/16/322347.full.pdf), terms as "Caucasus cluster", differentiated by the northern profile which is termed as "Steppe cluster". Here is the figure that relates. In figure A you can distinguish between the two autosomal clusters that were initially formed in the Eneolithic (hence the respective sample designations). I also drew a black rectangle which pertains to the aforementioned samples from Kaps. As for the colors in relation to the presented components, we have Anatolian Neolithic (orange), CHG/Iran Neolithic (green), European Hunter-Gatherers - WHG/EHG (blue), and Ancient North Eurasians - ANE (red and light green). There are a few others but they are insignificant components. In figure B you can distinguish the approximate dates of each individual sample by matching the referenced colors (left of the components) shown in figure A, or simply looking parallel to the samples. Take note that the dates refer to BP (Before Present), not BCE.
The same study also included Armenian samples from other studies, belonging to a number of different regions and ancient periods. For reference of each individual sample please review the following excel file by searching their respective codes, https://www.biorxiv.org/highwire/filestream/98916/field_highwire_adjunct_files/4/322347-5.xlsx.
You write, "Very interesting stuff, Demetrios!".
Thanks.
You write, "A few other possible connections that I've read:
The Urartian god Khaldi (sometimes written Haldi) may have been related to Helios, the -di possibly being the Classical Armenian word for "god." It should be noted that Khaldi is presumed to be a loan into the Urartian pantheon, possibly from the Akkadians.".
I have read of this hypothesis which i find interesting but i have a different view when it comes to "Ἥλιος" (Hḗlios). The original proto-Greek was ᾱ̓ϝέλιος (hāwélios), which had actually survived in the ancient Cretan dialect. In the other Dorian dialects as well as the Aeolic and Arcadocypriot it had evolved as ᾱ̓έλιος (hāélios), while in Ionic, Attic, Koine, and Modern as "ἥλιος" (hḗlios). Etymologically it could be of either pre-Greek or IE origin, and both have been suggested.
Furthermore, i see the name of the Urartian god "Khaldi" as a cognate of the very interesting pre-IE Anatolian people known as "Khaldi/Haldi/Chaldoi/Chalybes". These people seem to have been related to pre-IE Hatti (of whom their name could be a cognate), Hayašans (of whom their name could be a cognate), and maybe Hurro-Urartians as well. Their name is certainly related to the Hattic word "ḫapalki" (in Hurrian "ḫabalgi") which means hard iron, namely "steel", hence the Greek word "χάλυψ/χάλυβας" (chalyps/chalybas) which translates as "steel". As a sidenote, a famous etymology of Hayašans is also related to metals through PIE áyos (metal). Could these roots be related as a result of a pre-proto-language, or because one influenced the other, i don't know but it is an interesting correlation. They (Chaldoi) played a central role in the initiation of the Iron Age, which in their case had began some 1000 years earlier than the official chronology. Interestingly enough, it's not accidental that iron/steel began spreading after the collapse of the Hittite Empire, which had subjugated the aforementioned people and valued their knowledge as a State secret. This is something very few people know or notice.
In any case, i also believe that "Khaldi" (God) could be related to Graeco-Armenian or broader Indo-European for that matter, since we also have Greek "Δίας" (Días - alternative name of Zeus) and Latin "Deus" (God or deity) among others. At least for the last syllable. Along the same lines, i also find interesting that the Mycenaean Linear B (adapted from Minoan Linear A) sign for the syllable "KA/KHA/CHA" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B#/media/File:Linear_B_Syllable_B077_KA.svg) is the famous solar symbol known as the "Sun cross" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_cross). Who knows, maybe "Khaldi" translates as "Sun God" or "Heavenly God" or "Heavenly Father" or "Divine Sun".
It is also of interest to note that the Mycenaean Linear B word for copper is "KA-KO", while in later Greek copper became "χαλκός" (chalkos). Μaybe the root is related to the etymology of the aforementioned metal folks. Could add more but my answer is too compacted, just providing ideas.
You write, "There is a theory that Artemis was of Hurrian origins. (https://pies.ucla.edu/IESV/1/VVI_Horse.pdf)".
You had proposed that in the past as well but i wasn't very fond of it back then. In any case, i just went through the aforementioned Ivanov paper and i found his arguments compelling. It can very well be the case, especially onomatologically.
You write, "There is a theory that Diana was a form of Anahid (perhaps the name was considered too holy and said backwards--Diana backwards is Anaid).".
I have a different view on this. "Diana" seems to be a cognate of the Indo-European root i mentioned above which pertains to "God, deity, or divine". There is also an interesting correlation to Greek "Διώνη" (Dione) which is viewed as the female side/counterpart of "Δίας" (Días - alternative name of Zeus). Both of them were actually venerated as patron/matron deities in the oldest Greek oracle and second in prestige after the one of Delphi, namely the one at Dodona. They represented a syzygy, namely a pair of opposites like Yin and Yang in Chinese philosophy. Syncretistically their case is similar to the Latin Janus and Jana, Jupiter (equivalent of Zeus) and Juno (equivalent of Hera - wife of Zeus), or the twins Apollo (same in Greek) and Diana (equivalent of Artemis) which are most probably an anachronistic archetype of the same story. It's not accidental that Apollo and Diana/Artemis are also Gods of the Sun and Moon respectively, and we all know of the symbolic duality attached to these astronomical objects.
Last, there were many characters with the name "Διώνη" (Dione) in Greek mythology as you can read here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dione_(mythology). I only mention the above version because it is so emphatically related to the aforementioned IE root for "God, deity, or divine", being the counterpart for the King of the Gods, namely "Δίας" (Días).
You write, "There is a somewhat popular, but far from universally accepted, theory that Hurro-Urartian was somehow connected to Etruscan. If they made it to Italy why couldn't some of them have stayed in the Greek islands along the way?".
The whole Etruscan story is very complicated, i cannot really comment on that now. I would wait until the upcoming Italian studies get published as it concerns their genetics. But personally i am more of the view that the majority of Etruscans were largely indigenous or broadly northern Italian, also taking into account the related Rhaetian language that was spoken in the eastern Alps. Now, that doesn't negate the possibility of being related to Hurro-Urartian, if we look at it from a Neolithic or Chalcolithic/Eneolithic context. But for now all these are far from universally accepted and certainly hypothetical.
You write, "Just saw the above Trialeti link. Researchers seem to be veering toward Trialeti-Vanadzor being Indo-European, or at least having an Indo-European element. I think it's very likely that they were the Proto-Armenians. They expanded throughout modern Armenian and about as far west as Erzerum, Turkey. Soon after they "disappeared" Hayasa-Azzi materialized in modern NE Turkey. I suspect that Trialeti-Vanadzor either transitioned into Hayasa (perhaps the tribes confederated to protect themselves from the Hittites and/or Assyrians) in the mid-2nd millennium BCE or were already called Hayasa, but the Hittite records from the mid-2nd millennium are merely the first (or first surviving) records of that name. Hayasa is presumably a Hittite rendering of Hayk'/Hayastan, both Armenian names for Armenia.".
It is a nice hypothesis. But is there any archaeological corroboration in order to associate Trialeti-Vanadzor to Hayasa-Azzi? Furthermore, i also consider the possibility that Hayk/Hayastan could be a pre-Armenian adoption by proto-Armenians, maybe i am wrong though. I am certainly not jumping to conclusions on this because the etymologies are mixed, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%B0%D5%A1%D5%B5#Old_Armenian. In any case, that doesn't mean they are relatively different people, i am only referring to the language here. Proto-Armenian could have been adopted by pre-Armenian people, while they kept their original pre-Armenian name. But again, this is just a hypothesis which also takes into account the Armenian autosomal profile.
You write, "The question is, did Trialeti-Vanadzor, if indeed Indo-European, come from the direct north or come from the west. The potentially Armenian-like DNA component in the Mycenaean genetic results suggests to me that it's possible that the Greco-Armenians came from the north. However, they could also have come from eastern Europe.
Have there been DNA analysis of Trialeti-Vanadzor specimen?".
Well. We do have two samples from Kaps in north-western Armenia dated earlier, at approximately 3000 BCE, if they help. They are designated as Kura-Araxes, and they are a male and a female. The male belongs to Y-DNA G2b and mtDNA K3, while the female to mtDNA R1a1. AtDNA shows that they were relatively indigenous and hadn't migrated from the North, belonging to a profile that the respective genetic study, namely "The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus" (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/05/16/322347.full.pdf), terms as "Caucasus cluster", differentiated by the northern profile which is termed as "Steppe cluster". Here is the figure that relates. In figure A you can distinguish between the two autosomal clusters that were initially formed in the Eneolithic (hence the respective sample designations). I also drew a black rectangle which pertains to the aforementioned samples from Kaps. As for the colors in relation to the presented components, we have Anatolian Neolithic (orange), CHG/Iran Neolithic (green), European Hunter-Gatherers - WHG/EHG (blue), and Ancient North Eurasians - ANE (red and light green). There are a few others but they are insignificant components. In figure B you can distinguish the approximate dates of each individual sample by matching the referenced colors (left of the components) shown in figure A, or simply looking parallel to the samples. Take note that the dates refer to BP (Before Present), not BCE.
The same study also included Armenian samples from other studies, belonging to a number of different regions and ancient periods. For reference of each individual sample please review the following excel file by searching their respective codes, https://www.biorxiv.org/highwire/filestream/98916/field_highwire_adjunct_files/4/322347-5.xlsx.