DuPidh
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Dinarid
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I see the opposite of what you described. Men with Haplogroup IJ seem to have longer, more prominent facial features. Have you seen the noses of the stereotypical inhabitant of any country with a high frequency of I or J? I would associate Haplogroup R with youthful features. In reality though I highly doubt this has anything to do with haplogroups. I do still see a connection with above-average height and Haplogroup I.
It may not have any scientific basis, but I have also always visualized these silly physical and mental stereotypes for people of different haplogroups
R1b: smallish body frame, a bit hairy, usually dark haired, quick witted, creative, restless, shows emotions
R1a: blonde hair, pale skin, cold eyes, cold personality, never flinches from a fight
I1, I2: very tall, big boned, big nosed, vigorous, resilient, dutiful, unimaginative, a bit boring
J2, G2a: wavy hair, very dense beard, short or average height, easy going, enjoys life
E1b1b: squat, sly, hot temper
I probably just base these ideas off observations of nationalities/ethnicities where haplogroups X, Y or Z have a high incidence
R1b: smallish body frame, a bit hairy, usually dark haired, quick witted, creative, restless, shows emotions
R1a: blonde hair, pale skin, cold eyes, cold personality, never flinches from a fight
I1, I2: very tall, big boned, big nosed, vigorous, resilient, dutiful, unimaginative, a bit boring
J2, G2a: wavy hair, very dense beard, short or average height, easy going, enjoys life
E1b1b: squat, sly, hot temper
I probably just base these ideas off observations of nationalities/ethnicities where haplogroups X, Y or Z have a high incidence
You are describing your image of people in countries with high percentage of a particular haplogroup. This is not at all what I had in mind. You should first consider what the Y-chromosome can influence. It is linked to male sexual traits that develop at puberty. Therefore it is not going to affect skin colour, hair curliness, or the like. It could play a role in how quickly blond hair darkens, as it has been proven that women stay blond longer and that the testosterone surge at puberty quickly darkens the hair of blond children, but oddly enough not equally in all men. One hypothesis is that some haplogroups (like I1 or N1c) have a less darkening effect and these haplogroups were positively selected by natural selection in northern Europe to increase UV ray absorption and vitamin D production.
I also considered the possibility that Y-DNA could affect the way a man's jaw develop. I am not the only one who has observed that people belonging to some haplogroups, such as I1, J1 and J2, tend to have longer faces. But obviously autosomal genes are the prime determinant, as women can also have short or long faces. It just seems to be more pronounced in some men, so Y-DNA could just amplify the role of autosomal genes in that regard.
Body height is one of the most complex genetic traits, determined by dozens of autosomal genes. Some Y-DNA may also amplify it, but I doubt it is substantial.
João Soares
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I agree with this sentence. If Ydna Haplogroups determine certain behaviours/looks, what would determine them in women?
I think that Y-DNA can amplify some autosomal traits. Both men and women have hair and muscles, so it's obvious that these things are coded in autosomal DNA. Yet men are hairier and more muscular, especially from puberty when the Y chromosome becomes truly active. It's not just the effect of testosterone, as women who get testosterone injections, even if they become extreme body builders, will never have the same body shape as men, including wide shoulders, stronger jaws and nose and other different facial features. Likewise I have never heard or women getting body hair everywhere like men after using testosterone for years. Once again, not all men develop body hair at the same place. Some only have hair on the arms and legs, while others have hairy chests and even backs. The beard line varies a lot between individuals as well, but, like with receding hairlines, it probably has more to do with androgen receptors on the X chromosome.
Ultimately, because the X and Y chromosomes evolved together and in competition with one another (with genes occasionally shifting from one to the other), I think that a lot of sexual features depend on the fine interactions between the gene set on both the X and Y chromosome. Consequently, changing genes on the X chromosome will alter masculine traits just as much (if not more) than substituting one Y chromosome for another. It's very complex. That's why the best way to confirm the exact phenotypic effect of the Y chromosome alone would be to create near clones that have only different Y chromosomes. We can't do that in humans for ethical reasons, but nothing prevent us to try on other animals. Dogs, who have facial features that humans are especially familiar with, would seem like good candidates. I wonder if canine Y-DNA varies with breeds, or if they all have mixed Y-DNA? What would happen if we replaced a dog's Y-DNA by a that of wolf or a fox or a jackal ? Would they look and behave differently? Probably since male liger and male tigon are very different despite being each half-lion and half-tiger. Only their X and Y chromosomes differ.
João Soares
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Here's a thought: Take 2 Haplogroups: F and E, 45 000 years BP. Since there were no subclades of these two, there were no E1b1b, I, J, R1a, R1b, etc. Would this mean that every men carying haplogroup F would have the same behaviour and looks, in comparison with men carying haplogroup E, and every men carying haplogroup E would have the same behaviour and looks in comparison with men carying haplogroup F? The diversification would have been close to none, both in behaviour and looks, because, according to this theory, there would be no trait amplifications provided by E1b1b, I, J, R1b, etc. and all the men would have been absolutely (or almost absolutely) the same.
But the Y chromosome did mutate in time, and I think the main question here is – why? Environment? The intrinsic nature of the self (?!) . Is there any men alive carying haplogroup F - without any subclades? Does that man have a personality? Or is he the most average person on the planet?(I must say, however, that I'm no expert on genetics)
Actually the defining mutations of major haplogroups are not all that arbitrary. Most top level haplogroups suffered major bottlenecks during the Last Glacial Maximum. If you look at the phylogenetic tree (either on Yfull.com or Isogg.org), you will see that haplogroups are defined by a lot of mutations, often over 100, while subclades have just a few or even just one. For example (the mutation in brackets is just one of the defining mutations, usually the first identified or the most well known):
E1b1b (M125) : 148 defining mutations
- E1b1b1a (M78) :: 77 defining mutations
G : over 300 defining mutations
-G2a (P15) : 50 defining mutations
I1 : 301 defining mutations
I2 : 64 defining mutations
-I2a1 (M436) 55 defining mutations
-I2a2 (P37) : 28 defining mutations
J1 : 185 defining mutations
J2 : 30 defining mutations
-J2a (M410) : 117 defining mutations
R1a : 102 defining mutations
R1b (M343) : 28 defining mutations
-R1b-V88 : 75 defining mutations
-R1b-P297 : 33 defining mutations
--R1b-M269 : 100 defining mutations
These are of course cumulative and I skipped some intermediary subclades.
Additionally, as I mentioned before, some haplogroups carry mutations in the coding section of important genes, and therefore are much more likely to cause visible changes in looks or behaviour. This is the case for haplogroups BT, DE, E*, J*, R*, R1a1, R1b-SRY2627, R1b-M222, and T*. I don't think it is a coincidence that these mutations happen to fall right in the node of major historical expansion and define top level haplogroups or very major subclades (R1a1, which means nearly 100% of all R1a people alive today). Even R1b-M222, which is a very young subclade (TMRCA 1900 years before present) now makes up a very considering part of paternal lineages in the British Isles and in the English-speaking world. What exactly is the evolutionary advantage of M222 men, I don't know, but there seems to be one, otherwise this subclade among dozens of L21 subclades would not have become so successful.
The number of mutations between R1b1b (P297) and R1b1b2 (M269) is absolutely stunning. Only about 3500 years elapsed between the two, but M269 acquired 100 new mutations, about 10 per generation ! I cannot think of any other haplogroup that developed such large number of mutations in such a short time. Now is it a coincidence that that very lineage suddenly expanded from a minor Caucasian or Steppe cow herder lineage to a world dominant lineage found on all continents in just a few thousands years? I don't think so. Some of these mutations must have had an effect on the behaviour of these R1b men. We are talking about 100 mutations here, three times more than Paleolithic I* got to become I2a2 over 20,000 years later ! That's not a minor change.
The Y chromosome is the fastest evolving chromosome. Despite the fact that we share 98% of our genome with chimpanzees, our Y chromosomes have already become 30% different. It has been suggested that this is because of the competitive nature of reproduction and that the most advantageous Y chromosomes get selected. However if reproductive fitness was the only role of Y-DNA, we should expect little change over time. If the machinery works properly, why change it? Mutations are actually more likely to damage a fertility tried and tested over millions of years. Surely Y-DNA has other evolutionary implications. One of the biggest differences between the chimpanzees, the gorillas and humans is their respective sexual behaviours. Chimps are extremely promiscuous and use sex as a entertainment and as a bargaining tool, while gorillas are very faithful but live in harems around a dominant male. Humans are somewhere in between, but human behaviour also varies considerably by region and by historical culture. Did Y-DNA influence male behaviour before religions, cultures and laws started regulating sexual behaviour? I think it's an idea worth exploring.
arvistro
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Are you sure math adds up?
100 mutations per 3,500 years, that would be 1 mutation per 35 years. 10 per generation would make generation 350 years long?
And I still stick to it being arbitrary.
R1b - M269 has 100 mutations as per you
R1b - only 28. Why are we looking for commonalities at R1b/R1a level, when in fact, R1b - M269 is 100 mutations different from R1b?
Sorry, of course it is 1 per generation.
When I am referring to haplogroup R1b, I always mean modern subclades of R1b unless otherwise specified. For Europeans that is almost always subclades downstream of R1b-M269. Anyway, if you understood anything about what I intended to say about cumulative mutations you wouldn't be asking such questions. You can spend your time counting all the mutations from R1b* to say R1b-M222, or a deep clade under R1b-U106 like L180, to get an idea of the hundreds of mutations that distinguish an R1b* man from 20,000 years ago to a modern R1b person. I don't have any time to waste on this. Anyway, not all mutations are equal, and a mutation in the coding section of a gene carries far more evolutionary weight than any other random mutation. Do you sincerely believe that it is a coincidence that such important mutations came to define the three most successful male lineages in human history: namely haplogroups E (covering most of Africa), J (from the Mediterranean to South Asia), and R (present at high frequencies in most of western Eurasia and South Asia)? Other haplogroups didn't get these super-mutations and they all waned as a result.
If we only considering super-mutations in the coding section of Y-chromosomal genes to define haplogroups, there would only be these haplogroups.
A
- BT (including haplogroups C, DxD2, F, G, H, I, K, L, M, N, OxO2b, P, Q, S)
-- DE
--- D2
--- E* (including E1a, E1b1a, E1b1b, etc.)
-- J* (including J1 and J2)
-- O2b
-- R*
--- R1a1
--- R1b-SRY2627
--- R1b-M222
-- T*
Note that these supermutations are extremely rare events. Out of the billions of men who were born in the course history, each with a few mutations on their Y chromosome, only these few were positive enough to be selected and spread. The mutations for D2 and J are identical (12f2.1), so they must be doing something right. Oddly, the R1a1 SRY mutation is a back mutation from haplogroup BT, so R1a1 men are like those of haplogroup A but with the supermutation of R*.
It's interesting that the two main Y-DNA lineages among the Japanese happen to be D2 (40%) and O2b (31%), although nine other top level Y-haplogroups are present in the country. Why is it exactly those carrying super-mutations that came to replace all others? It's not because the most recent invader replaced older lineages. Japan was only invaded once, by the Yayoi people from Korea/China from 500 BCE. Yet D2 is descended from the aboriginal Mesolithic inhabitants (alongside C1 and D1), while O2b came with the Yayoi (alongside C3, NO, N, O1, O2a, O3 and Q). Not a coincidence. Evolution at work.
Here is another one. Ireland and western Scotland have about 80% of R1b. With Norheast Spain (Basque country and Catalonia), this is the highest percentage of R1b in Europe. What are the most common deep clades in each region (under L21 and DF27 respectively) ? R1b-M222 in Ireland and western Scotland, and R1b-SRY2627 in Catalonia. Another coincidence? Even though L21 and DF27 have dozens of branches, M222 managed to seize up 28% of Irish lineages (35% of all R1b and 40% of R1b-L21) and SRY2627 25% of Catalan ones (38% of all R1b). I'd bet that their frequency has been gradually increasing over time.
So, N and Q is not on the list.
Q spread over both Americas, N replaced half of supermutated R1a in Baltics...
Chinese are O3 right? Also doomed to vane?
Or belonging to BT or even A is enough?
Haplogroup Q colonised an uninhabited continent. What's your point? No competition there.
N1c is older than R1a. It started in the Manchurian Neolithic (see Yinqiu Cui et al. (2013)) and reached Northeast European with the Comb Ceramic culture from 4200 BCE, long before the Corded Ware culture. It's R1a1a that replaced N1c, not the other way round (although there were surely R1b* and R1a* in Northeast Europe, in addition to other lineages like I and Q1a, before the Comb Ceramic, as attested by the Karelian Mesolithic genomes).
O2b is found essentially in Japan and Korea, where it started replacing the other C3, N1 and O3 lineages that were predominant in North Chinese Neolithic cultures tested so far. O3 makes up nearly 60% of Han Chinese lineages and often much more (up to 100%) in other ethnic groups from China. Three deep clades of haplogroup O (O2a1c1a-F11, O2a2b1a2a1-F46, O3a2c1a-M117 in the ISOGG 2016 nomenclature) were recognised by Shi Yan et al. (2014) as being markers of the Chinese Neolithic expansion, and these three subclades account for 40% of modern Han lineages. If O2b had originated in China, the Chinese genetic landscape might be very different now.
Then don't misunderstand me, the evolutionary advantage might simply be a higher fertility or slightly higher ratio of boys to girls. The Chinese have a long tradition of killing baby girls as boys are seen as more useful among the peasants (and less costly as they don't need a dowry). That kind of tradition of courses messes with the natural selection of Y chromosomes.
arvistro
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I specifically mentioned Baltic N (M2783) which has tmrca of 600 bce, expanded to 40% in Balts way after Comb Ceramic or CW.
Also I am ready to bet there were expansion of I1 or I2 subclades too. Anyway I would be surprised if say at 0 AD, there were Significant higher proportion of I1 or I2 vs R1s than today. would be curious to see stats.
Also I am ready to bet there were expansion of I1 or I2 subclades too. Anyway I would be surprised if say at 0 AD, there were Significant higher proportion of I1 or I2 vs R1s than today. would be curious to see stats.
Obviously good genes or advantageous mutations are not the whole story. N1c1 could have been spread in the Baltic through royal or noble lineages, like the Gediminid dynasty and its offshoots.
I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the Y-DNA replacements among the Iron Age or medieval Finns or Saami as they had tiny populations or only a few thousands members each. It is easy for a "politically" dominant male lineage (think local chieftain or owner of a herd of reindeer) to spread his Y-DNA quickly in such tiny populations. Then when populations quickly grow to reach a few millions thanks to the industrial revolution (as was the case in Finland), we end up with the last dominant tribal Y-DNA covering a big part of a country's population. That is a very special case that defies 'normal' historical developments in more populous regions.
arvistro
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But were not R1a and R1b lines spread by politically dominant male lineages of bronze age (and later by politically dominant local grand...grand..sons of earlier politically dominant fathers)? Would R* descendants be so populous today, if not for Yamna?
I actually have nothing against idea of for example, some mutations having more boys than girls or some mutations being less or more fertile or perhaps aggressive.
Just don't think there is enough data to support it, we would need to find an example of isolated, socialist community with 50/50 say R1a and I2a and give it time to see if R1a becomes dominant.
To some extent yes. But R1b-V88 spread to many parts of Africa (Sahel region especially) long before the Indo-Europeans and without conquering armies. And it achieved it in competition with other haplogroups with supermutations, like E, J and T. Not bad.
R1b subclades kept spreading around western Europe long after the Bronze Age. Just look at the Basques. The most recent common ancestor of the Basque R1b-M153 only lived 2500 years ago, and most Basques belong to newer subclades further down. Besides, the Basques retained their ancestral non-IE language. This means that R1b-M153 spread naturally and gradually, without conquest or political constraint.
Only in regions where there was a lot of competition from other haplogroups with supermutations, like in the Balkans and the Middle East with all its E1b1b, J1, J2 and T1a, did R1a and R1b have a harder time to become dominant, despite the numerous military conquests and millennia or political dominance of Indo-European civilisations in the region (Hittites, Luwians, Lydians, Lycians, Armenians, Mitani, Medes, Persians, Achaemenids, Parthians).
arvistro
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Not sure how is this different from Balts and N-M2783 vs supermutated R1a. Same age, same retain of ancestral (this time IE) language. Without conquest. Not even a single loanword from Finnish that would mean King, rule, chief, etc, etc. Without conquest or political constraint.
Although I suspect some smiths (transition to iron working perhaps?) doing their work in both Basques and Balts. At least in Balts.
Did not V88 spread with cattle? That would explain its popularity better than supermutation.
How I2 could spread so well in Balkans having a lot of competition from other haplogroups with supermutations? Is not I2 the main haplo of Balkans?
Hauteville
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Yes like one R1b from Camerun and one from Ireland.
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