Northern European Union

albanopolis said:
Superiority is claimed by Northen Europeans. There was a law in 1900 by US Congress ( made up entirely of Northern folks) that restricted the Southerns from immigrating, on inferiority basis. So, Northerns have a history of superiority. Truth to be told, Northerns have been more succesful in modern times. But a Northern Union will not work, my friend. Southerns are a hard bone and vital. Golden age for North is over. Expensive labuor make Northerns uncompetitive. Anyway, you keep your views, I will keep mine. Southerns want a strong Union with North. We value everything good that Northerns bring, and we are capable of enriching civilisation. How, can one, not want a country like Italy in the Union?
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They are not my views as such, i was merely turning your own views on it's head to put you in the position i feel when reading your posts. I do not think that southern Europeans are inferior, and i do not want a northern European Union, although it seems that most of northern Europe and most of southern Europe would be more compatible with the rest of their group than with each other, economically at least.
 
kamani said:
you're right, go ahead then, cut lose all those lazy Southerners that you seem to be carrying around. But wait a minute, you can't, can you..!?
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No, i can't. I'm merely a poor maligned peasant who can't even do much to sort out the bad politics in his own country let alone others. :)
 
Jackson said:
They are not my views as such, i was merely turning your own views on it's head to put you in the position i feel when reading your posts. I do not think that southern Europeans are inferior, and i do not want a northern European Union, although it seems that most of northern Europe and most of southern Europe would be more compatible with the rest of their group than with each other, economically at least.
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O.k then, we are both for a strong European Union. My country is still not part of it, but I want to be. In my post I did not intend to express any Southern superiority, since there is not such, but I was stating an historical fact: Rome is largely responsible for the shape of todays map. Without them might have been different.
 
albanopolis said:
O.k then, we are both for a strong European Union. My country is still not part of it, but I want to be. In my post I did not intend to express any Southern superiority, since there is not such, but I was stating an historical fact: Rome is largely responsible for the shape of todays map. Without them might have been different.
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Ok, maybe i misunderstood. You are right about the Roman Empire. Personally i think the EU would have to change substantially before i'd accept it, although i never would in my own country just because i am fundamentally opposed to the basic principle of power being ceded out of the nation, but i think the most important thing is that if the EU is going to succeed, it needs to have strong support from the people, and they must also all (or most) want and support unification. The EU either needs to not exist or become fully federal to succeed in my opinion. I am against 'Europe' becoming effectively a national entity, but i am aware that it is heading in that direction whether i like it or not. My primary concern is for my own nation, but if the people in other nations in Europe feel the same as me i would support them. Last i heard about 1/3 of Germans are against it, or at least the Euro. It's probably gone up since then, though.

I honestly just see it as another attempt to unify Europe, only by non-violent/expansionistic means this time. I do not think we are ready for it now, although i don't know what it will be like in the future. I guess it depends on the ideology, whether people feel more with their national identity or European identity, and i know the EU is strongly pushing for people to start considering themselves as European first.

It could be a lot worse, that is true. But i am still not in favour of it. I'm not in favour of the EU because i am pro-European nation states. I'm very much in favour of cooperation with other European countries, i just think that political and monetary union is far too extreme, and may not be in the best interest of the European peoples.
 
albanopolis said:
O.k then, we are both for a strong European Union. My country is still not part of it, but I want to be. In my post I did not intend to express any Southern superiority, since there is not such, but I was stating an historical fact: Rome is largely responsible for the shape of todays map. Without them might have been different.
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Are you sure?

Name one modern successor state of the Roman Empire.:useless:

Please don't say Italy, which was divided from the year 568 (Langobard invasion) till 1861 (new Kingdom of Italy).
 
in ancient times we were them with the knowledge and you the underdevloped tribes
and since the renaissance its the other way around
the boot is on the other foot lol
 
Vallicanus said:
Are you sure?

Name one modern successor state of the Roman Empire.:useless:

Please don't say Italy, which was divided from the year 568 (Langobard invasion) till 1861 (new Kingdom of Italy).
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.......Israel
 
Is this really about the EU or is this about the Euro zone?

There are no problems with the idea of a united Europe; of open borders, and of Brussels regulating and norming everything to a common EU standard;

But the united Currency doesnt work;

Poland is in the EU but not in the Euro; and they are doing just fine and Business between Germany and Poland is booming, despite 2 diff. currencies; So the Euro being a must is a myth;

A Union of economies (within EU) that can sustain such a strong currency - not a bad idea
A Union of diverse economies, in which the smaller economies are not capable of carrying such a strong currency - bad idea
 
Jackson said:
Ok, maybe i misunderstood. You are right about the Roman Empire. Personally i think the EU would have to change substantially before i'd accept it, although i never would in my own country just because i am fundamentally opposed to the basic principle of power being ceded out of the nation, but i think the most important thing is that if the EU is going to succeed, it needs to have strong support from the people, and they must also all (or most) want and support unification. The EU either needs to not exist or become fully federal to succeed in my opinion. I am against 'Europe' becoming effectively a national entity, but i am aware that it is heading in that direction whether i like it or not. My primary concern is for my own nation, but if the people in other nations in Europe feel the same as me i would support them. Last i heard about 1/3 of Germans are against it, or at least the Euro. It's probably gone up since then, though.

I honestly just see it as another attempt to unify Europe, only by non-violent/expansionistic means this time. I do not think we are ready for it now, although i don't know what it will be like in the future. I guess it depends on the ideology, whether people feel more with their national identity or European identity, and i know the EU is strongly pushing for people to start considering themselves as European first.

It could be a lot worse, that is true. But i am still not in favour of it. I'm not in favour of the EU because i am pro-European nation states. I'm very much in favour of cooperation with other European countries, i just think that political and monetary union is far too extreme, and may not be in the best interest of the European peoples.
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I totaly agree with you! I, too am afraid that in current form EU is a big bazar. All talk little work. My ideal Union would be France, Germany, Italy, England and maybe Spain for population reasons having an enhanced status, all other lightweight countries treated fairly, but in other circle of decision making. Making sure that nations stay the way they are, am OK with that. But I too oppose EU being a federal state. EU does not need a president. It needs a Common Foreign minister though, to deal with other countries. If Turkey gets in the Union, I doubt it will be managable anymore. I am not against Turks as a nation, but their size will complicate a lot of things. They bring with them in the Union another undeclared nation of Kurdistan, with 25 milion souls that are 1000% middleeastern stock.
 
Boss said:
I am not sure which people are you referring to. I'm talking about polls. And what you hear from the Greeks is not opposition to the EU, it's opposition to particular measures within the EU. When I'm talking about Euroscepticism, I'm talking about full blown We-Don't-Want-To-Be-A-Part-of-This-Union. That is what it means, to my mind, to be anti-EU. Opposing a particular set of policies doesn't make you anti-EU. And in that sense, there is more of that in the North (again, England being the most extreme example) than in the South - even now in the midst of the crisis (or perhaps especially now).
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That's a good news.


But all this I think is irrelevant. For I don't doubt that the elites in many Northern countries are pro-EU. And it is they that conceived of a united Europe. Rather I thought we were talking about the public - *the* English, for example (I don't think the Germans btw are anti-EU and I wasn't really talking about them) whose views are not really represented by these people.
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I think the business elites are very pro-EU, especially if it comes to duty free big European market. Honestly this is what Europe needs to be on equal level in competing with US and China business.
 
Nobody1 said:
Are they really or are they more like Persians?
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When I am saying middleastern I refer to their geography not phenotype. EU is already a big mix of races and phenotypes. But geographicaly they are midleasterns. Such a big Union with countries with populations of 100 mil (Turkey will be in 20 yrs) is not managable. Current Union + Ballkans is the maximum capacity.
 
EU and Euro were created to compete with US and the USD. While caught up in this “battle”, EU and US disregarded the rise of China. I think EU have bigger problems. One is the demographic regress, another one are the Islamic emigrants who don’t integrate and slowly but surely are taking over,and the last one is Chinese expansionism.
While being too busy with what and who to cut loose from the Union, China is colonizing Africa, is “occupying” resources around the World and lately they removed the “one child per family policy”. It seems like the Chinese want to take over the World and if you didn’t like the US Empire, you have another thing coming, and it won’t be pretty. EU was eager to overtake US and both helped China become what it has become today, a huge threat.
I’m appalled by the last events in Sweden, the beating to death of the Dutch linesman by Middle Eastern adolescent players, antigay violence (by Middle Easterns) in France etc. The so called democracy, political correctness etc, is burying Europe and soon with it US. We’re bending over backwards to make the minorities happy, while nobody gives a sh.. about the majority. With their demographic boom and their goal on spreading Islam worldwide, not too far in the future we’ll have Eurasia.
Are the Europeans oblivious to what is going on around them?
 
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Illyricum Sacrum said:
EU and Euro were created to compete with US and the USD. While caught up in this “battle”, EU and US disregarded the rise of China. I think EU have bigger problems. One is the demographic regress, another one are the Islamic emigrants who don’t integrate and slowly but surely are taking over,and the last one is Chinese expansionism.
While being too busy with what and who to cut loose from the Union, China is colonizing Africa, is “occupying” resources around the World and lately they removed the “one child per family policy”. It seems like the Chines want to take over the World and if you didn’t like the US Empire, you have another thing coming, and it won’t be pretty. EU was eager to overtake US and both helped China become what it has become today, a huge threat.
I’m appalled by the last events in Sweden, the beating to death of the Dutch linesman by Middle Eastern adolescent players, antigay violence (by Middle Easterns) in France etc. The so called democracy, political correctness etc, is burying Europe and soon with it US. We’re bending over backwards to make the minorities happy, while nobody gives a sh.. about the majority. With their demographic boom and their goal on spreading Islam worldwide, not too far in the future we’ll have Eurasia.
Are the Europeans oblivious to what is going on around them?
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You make it seem like it is Muslim immigrants vs the West. But it is actually much more complex than that. For example, descendants of Afro Caribbean immigrants (who are most Christian Evangelicals) are far more violent in the UK than any Muslim immigrant group. Many Muslim immigrants assimilate and develop the host country quite well.

What the real problem is massive immigration of UNEDUCATED immigrants. No matter what their religion is, usually uneducated immigrants cause severe problems to the host country. Perhaps the only exception to this rule would be East Asians. I propose that illegal immigrants get deported, uneducated immigrants are restricted entry, and educated immigrants are encouraged.
 
Templar said:
You make it seem like it is Muslim immigrants vs the West. But it is actually much more complex than that. For example, descendants of Afro Caribbean immigrants (who are most Christian Evangelicals) are far more violent in the UK than any Muslim immigrant group. Many Muslim immigrants assimilate and develop the host country quite well.

What the real problem is massive immigration of UNEDUCATED immigrants. No matter what their religion is, usually uneducated immigrants cause severe problems to the host country. Perhaps the only exception to this rule would be East Asians. I propose that illegal immigrants get deported, uneducated immigrants are restricted entry, and educated immigrants are encouraged.
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Templar, What I said was based on the latest events and the failure of the immigrants, Middle Easterns especially, to integrate, and disregard the land of the law wanting to establish the Sharia Law. There are quarters in London and Paris that police won't go in. I also read a Danish study, regarding a group of Turkish immigrants, and three generations later, they could barely speak Danish, the majority bringing spouses from the original country of origin. Interesting to see was the charter of contributing vs taking from the welfare system. The Middle Easterns and North Africans were the least employed and relying heavily on the welfare system. I have don't have any problem with the immigrants that work, integrate, respect the law of the land. I do agree with your last statement.
 
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