The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

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@Real expert said-Gaska, seriously? I hope you didn't join the SJW bandwagon, and woke folks who always use shaming tactics to tell people that they are committing a heinous sin by being interested in skin color or phenotype. And please stop bringing up Nordicism that nobody here is promoting.

I don`t know what is the SJW bandwagon, and of course I'm a long way from being a leftist. I don't like the globalists who think that Europe should become a multiracial continent, but I also don't like the debates about who is more blond, taller, more handsome or in which country there are more people with blue eyes. People should travel more and put aside stereotypes and prejudices. The matter of the darkness of the Mycenaeans seems of little importance to me although I recognize that there may be people interested in finding out the phenotype of our European ancestors, but I think that these topics are handled in a polite and respectful way. That's why I joke about the amount of people who say stupid things on the Internet, and how they project their complexes on people who approach these forums in a naive way.

@Real expert said-Besides, I was open to your criticism concerning geneticists and their flawed studies concerning the Steppe theory, and the origin of R1b. In spite not entirely agreeing with your arguments, I didn't outright dismiss your assertion, that R1b originated in Western Europe instead of the Steppe. Plus, I didn't get personal by accusing you of being anti-Eastern European or a Yamanya- hater.

My ideas about the origin of R1b and more specifically R1b-L51> P312 are publicly known, I like to discuss them with people who truly understand genetics and I will have no problem admitting that I have been wrong if someone is able to prove it.

Yamnaya hater? Not especially, but it bothers me the way the Nordicists use this culture to try to impose an absurd and senseless supremacism


@Real expert said-Be more charitable, and let people be interested in whatever they want. We don’t need thought police and a PC brigade on a forum about human genetics and anthropology. Besides, I explained in depth why I find the result a bit odd. I never expected the Mycenaeans, BA Greeks to be blond Northern European or lily-white, but I did expect them to be how they described themselves to be- "intermediate". Anyway, you don’t need to be disrespectful to blond people and their ancestors. And all Europeans whether light or dark share more or less the same distant ancestors. Hence, to me Europeaness is not define by being ghostly white and lacking "color". What do you mean by half black Mycenaeans, there are none in this paper?

Autosomically some Mycenaeans from Lazaridis paper can be modeled with some African blood, and this study has shown that there could be migrants or slaves of African origin in the Balkans BA (hence they have reported a case of Mit-L3). Therefore it does not surprise me that some of them cannot be classified as fair skinned, although I believe that other samples will be, because in the Bronze Age the phenotypes in Europe were as varied as they are today. (I have given the example of two cases from the Bronze Age in Iberia, one blonde in Asturias and other with brown hair in Argar culture)- Then we have people with blue eyes or brown eyes all over Europe both in prehistory and today. That is why I have not given too much importance to swarthy Mycenaeans




Actually, the geneticists asserted, that the Minoans and Mycenaeans lack Levantine or North African/SSA admixture. Some models do show SSA input in Mycenaeans that is not real. On anthrogenica and on Quora people who are versed in genetics and algorithms set this record straight. However, even if there was SSA mix in BA Greeks it would be too small for having a meaningful impact on their complexion.There are plenty of Middle Easterners and North Africans with noticeable SSA admixture that are still intermediate or whitish. Keep in mind, that post-mortem damage causes ancient folks, even Icelandic, Anglo-Saxon samples to score SSA that is actually not real. Furthermore, we know now, that haplogroups alone don't tell the whole story. You can have a typical Eurasian hp, and be basically entirely SSA or vise versa. I'd like to point out that we all should be more tolerant, and understand that people are different, thus with different interests. Some folks are haplogroup enthusiasts, others are more interested in autosomal DNA while others are fascinated by the diverse phenotype of humans. It's all legitimate interest. Asking questions, being curious, examining, and exploring ideas are what make a society advanced. Taboos, and the restriction of interests and thoughts are what keep and kept many cultures backward. Anyway, you can’t dismiss Nordicism that is becoming more and more irrelevant on one hand, but on the other hand overlook how Afrocentrism is on the rise and being pushed. Besides, it's ridiculous to attribute the achievements of BA Greeks to a possible tiny SSA admixture.
 
Bit unfair you attributing this leak to a Serbian forum when Gjergj posted this 1-2 weeks ago in a thread that you commented yourself.


Sorry do you forgive me .
....
I guess i didnt thought they are the same results
That 2 different persons from 2 different forums talk about ( albanian and a serb )


P.s
Do you think e-v13 will be found in bronze age south albania ?
 
Sorry do you forgive me .
....
I guess i didnt thought they are the same results
That 2 different persons from 2 different forums talk about ( albanian and a serb )
P.s
Do you think e-v13 will be found in bronze age south albania ?

No need for apology. I just found it confusing cause I remembered you were in that thread :LOL::embarassed:.

I do not know to be honest about V13. For one, Gjergj did not mention it along the R1b and J2b2 in the comment I quoted, so who knows(?). But also Gjergj mentioned two sites, so maybe even if it is not found in this one, there is a chance it is found in the other.

Either way, it would be really surprising if V-13 is not found in Albania in that period. Considering how widely present it was in Bulgaria based on the leak from the Bulgaria paper, the timing, and how widely spread it is across the whole Balkans.
 
No need for apology. I just found it confusing cause I remembered you were in that thread :LOL::embarassed:.

I do not know to be honest about V13. For one, Gjergj did not mention it along the R1b and J2b2 in the comment I quoted, so who knows(?). But also Gjergj mentioned two sites, so maybe even if it is not found in this one, there is a chance it is found in the other.

Either way, it would be really surprising if V-13 is not found in Albania in that period. Considering how widely present it was in Bulgaria based on the leak from the Bulgaria paper, the timing, and how widely spread it is across the whole Balkans.

Yes you are correct, so far E-V13 has not been found in Albania during BA


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Yes you are correct, so far E-V13 has not been found in Albania during BA


Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum

Is it known or public what is the number of individuals analyzed/being analyzed?
 
Is it known or public what is the number of individuals analyzed/being analyzed?

I have no clue how many, I asked Gjergj a week ago, and as far as I remember E-V13 has not been found so far. The bones came from prior escavations of the Albanian Institute of Archeology.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Autosomically some Mycenaeans from Lazaridis paper can be modeled with some African blood, and this study has shown that there could be migrants or slaves of African origin in the Balkans BA (hence they have reported a case of Mit-L3). Therefore it does not surprise me that some of them cannot be classified as fair skinned, although I believe that other samples will be, because in the Bronze Age the phenotypes in Europe were as varied as they are today. (I have given the example of two cases from the Bronze Age in Iberia, one blonde in Asturias and other with brown hair in Argar culture)- Then we have people with blue eyes or brown eyes all over Europe both in prehistory and today. That is why I have not given too much importance to swarthy Mycenaeans

Greeks seemed to have believed there was a movement from Egypt. Herodotus who is more extreme says even that the kings of the Dorians were ''Egyptians".

I had tried to understand how that would work. The most probable scenario is there was a real migration, these people became part of the elites but they where Hyksos related and not Egyptians proper. The trend today is to consider the Hyksos to have been Semetic, which is possible but not necessarily correct.

(If they were Hyksos related the date of potential movements should be around 1550BC, provided that the dates by Egyptologists are correct.)

Either way, in Avaris which was the "seat of the power" of the Hyksos, there have been found artifacts like this fragment of a ''Minoan'' fresco
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Minoan_fresko_avaris_2.png

So, it is also possible there was a back migration of a BA Greek related population and I think that is what Aeschylus in Suppliants implies.

So, any exotic admixture -if real, personally I don't really care- can be explainable that way even.

(I am not talking about earlier samples or any specific samples in particular. I am just stating what is possible based on what Greeks believed about themselves.)
 
Greeks seemed to have believed there was a movement from Egypt. Herodotus who is more extreme says even that the kings of the Dorians were ''Egyptians".

I had tried to understand how that would work. The most probable scenario is there was a real migration, these people became part of the elites but they where Hyksos related and not Egyptians proper. The trend today is to consider the Hyksos to have been Semetic, which is possible but not necessarily correct.

(If they were Hyksos related the date of potential movements should be around 1550BC, provided that the dates by Egyptologists are correct.)

Either way, in Avaris which was the "seat of the power" of the Hyksos, there have been found artifacts like this fragment of a ''Minoan'' fresco
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Minoan_fresko_avaris_2.png

So, it is also possible there was a back migration of a BA Greek related population and I think that is what Aeschylus in Suppliants implies.

So, any exotic admixture -if real, personally I don't really care- can be explainable that way even.

(I am not talking about earlier samples or any specific samples in particular. I am just stating what is possible based on what Greeks believed about themselves.)

We are not at Dorians yet, data comes before 1,200 BC. For Dorian times I would speculate plenty of E-V13


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
@Real expert said-Gaska, seriously? I hope you didn't join the SJW bandwagon, and woke folks who always use shaming tactics to tell people that they are committing a heinous sin by being interested in skin color or phenotype. And please stop bringing up Nordicism that nobody here is promoting.

I don`t know what is the SJW bandwagon, and of course I'm a long way from being a leftist. I don't like the globalists who think that Europe should become a multiracial continent, but I also don't like the debates about who is more blond, taller, more handsome or in which country there are more people with blue eyes. People should travel more and put aside stereotypes and prejudices. The matter of the darkness of the Mycenaeans seems of little importance to me although I recognize that there may be people interested in finding out the phenotype of our European ancestors, but I think that these topics are handled in a polite and respectful way. That's why I joke about the amount of people who say stupid things on the Internet, and how they project their complexes on people who approach these forums in a naive way.

@Real expert said-Besides, I was open to your criticism concerning geneticists and their flawed studies concerning the Steppe theory, and the origin of R1b. In spite not entirely agreeing with your arguments, I didn't outright dismiss your assertion, that R1b originated in Western Europe instead of the Steppe. Plus, I didn't get personal by accusing you of being anti-Eastern European or a Yamanya- hater.

My ideas about the origin of R1b and more specifically R1b-L51> P312 are publicly known, I like to discuss them with people who truly understand genetics and I will have no problem admitting that I have been wrong if someone is able to prove it.

Yamnaya hater? Not especially, but it bothers me the way the Nordicists use this culture to try to impose an absurd and senseless supremacism


@Real expert said-Be more charitable, and let people be interested in whatever they want. We don’t need thought police and a PC brigade on a forum about human genetics and anthropology. Besides, I explained in depth why I find the result a bit odd. I never expected the Mycenaeans, BA Greeks to be blond Northern European or lily-white, but I did expect them to be how they described themselves to be- "intermediate". Anyway, you don’t need to be disrespectful to blond people and their ancestors. And all Europeans whether light or dark share more or less the same distant ancestors. Hence, to me Europeaness is not define by being ghostly white and lacking "color". What do you mean by half black Mycenaeans, there are none in this paper?

Autosomically some Mycenaeans from Lazaridis paper can be modeled with some African blood, and this study has shown that there could be migrants or slaves of African origin in the Balkans BA (hence they have reported a case of Mit-L3). Therefore it does not surprise me that some of them cannot be classified as fair skinned, although I believe that other samples will be, because in the Bronze Age the phenotypes in Europe were as varied as they are today. (I have given the example of two cases from the Bronze Age in Iberia, one blonde in Asturias and other with brown hair in Argar culture)- Then we have people with blue eyes or brown eyes all over Europe both in prehistory and today. That is why I have not given too much importance to swarthy Mycenaeans

I think you need to go back and re-read the paper, because there is no where which suggest that.
 
Wait... Did I miss something? Which one of the samples is African :O ?

None of them do, I believe this person is t-rolling, and if he continues, I will be forced to do something about it.
 
[FONT=&quot]Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists22, are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Mycenaeans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions.

[/FONT]
Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans (harvard.edu)

@Gaska, STOP T-ROLLING
 
None of them do, I believe this person is t-rolling, and if he continues, I will be forced to do something about it.

I mean I have seen so much wild stuff in anthropology forums I would not be surprised if he isn't trolling. Probably a bit confused. He is putting a lot of efforts in his posts by looking at it, not sure about the output.

Either way. We can all agree that no one with genuine research mindset would care if these ancient individuals were dark skinned, or even Ethiopian. So no need to be defensive (edit: on his part).
The whole point is discussing the research. And so far we know the paper says they were of dark complexion, but we are not entirely certain how, or convinced, unless the author/s themselves verify what they meant. On the other hand, not sure I saw anything regarding Africa in this? Do not know what he meant by that... Maybe he thinks you need to be African or of that heritage to have dark skin.
 
I mean I have seen much wild stuff in anthropology forums I would not be surprised if he isn't trolling. Probably a bit confused. He is putting a lot of efforts in his posts by looking at it, not sure about the output.

Either way. We can all agree that no one with genuine research mindset would care if these ancient individuals were dark skinned, or even Ethiopian. So no need to be defensive.
The whole point is discussing the research. And so far we know the paper says they were of dark complexion, but we are not entirely certain how, or convinced, unless the author/s themselves verify what they meant. On the other hand, not sure I saw anything regarding Africa in this? So not sure what he meant... Maybe he think you need to be African or of that heritage to have dark skin.

Frankly, I don't care, we are not here to spread disinformation. Now, people are either going to read the papers, or they are going to not pontificate nonsense. Also, I don't appreciate you undermining moderation.
 
Frankly, I don't care, we are not here to spread disinformation. Now, people are either going to read the papers, or they are going to not pontificate nonsense. Also, I don't appreciate you undermining moderation.

Not sure what gave you the impression I undermined anything you said? Just stated that people can get really confused, since I don't think anyone would spend that much energy to t-roll.

Either way... :13:
 
Not sure what gave you the impression I undermined anything you said? Just stated that people can get really confused, since I don't think anyone would spend that much energy to t-roll.

Either way... :13:

I've been a moderator on this website for several years now, you haven't seen what I have. You would be surprised the lengths some people go to. Nevertheless, no punitive actions have even been taken yet, unless he continues. At any rate, let us get back on topic.
 
I don't know anyone who's arguing that Greek speakers arrived in the Neolithic with R1b-M269, or that the Minoans were R1b-M269-carrying Indo-Europeans, so what you posted isn't really relevant.

The main theories as far as I'm aware are that Greek speakers arrived c.2200-2000 BC or c.1700 BC.


Anyway you don't have R1b-M269>L23 in the Bronze Age in Greece either, so either find it, or look for another theory to explain the Indo-European languages in Greece and Anatolia.
 
Actually, the geneticists asserted, that the Minoans and Mycenaeans lack Levantine or North African/SSA admixture. Some models do show SSA input in Mycenaeans that is not real. On anthrogenica and on Quora people who are versed in genetics and algorithms set this record straight. However, even if there was SSA mix in BA Greeks it would be too small for having a meaningful impact on their complexion.There are plenty of Middle Easterners and North Africans with noticeable SSA admixture that are still intermediate or whitish. Keep in mind, that post-mortem damage causes ancient folks, even Icelandic, Anglo-Saxon samples to score SSA that is actually not real. Furthermore, we know now, that haplogroups alone don't tell the whole story. You can have a typical Eurasian hp, and be basically entirely SSA or vise versa. I'd like to point out that we all should be more tolerant, and understand that people are different, thus with different interests. Some folks are haplogroup enthusiasts, others are more interested in autosomal DNA while others are fascinated by the diverse phenotype of humans. It's all legitimate interest. Asking questions, being curious, examining, and exploring ideas are what make a society advanced. Taboos, and the restriction of interests and thoughts are what keep and kept many cultures backward. Anyway, you can’t dismiss Nordicism that is becoming more and more irrelevant on one hand, but on the other hand overlook how Afrocentrism is on the rise and being pushed. Besides, it's ridiculous to attribute the achievements of BA Greeks to a possible tiny SSA admixture.

All Europeans have a small portion of Levantine blood thanks to the Anatolian farmers and Yamnaya riders, the Minoans and Mycenaeans are no exception


Afrocentrists are just as boring as Nordicists.
 
The Minoans were a maritime society who traded as far as Egypt and the Near East, it is therefore not surprising that a mit-L3 has appeared in the Aegean islands because of the cultural, genetic and racial relations between the Minoans and the Greek peoples.

Various theories have been proposed to respond to the question of if, when and in what circumstances Greek speakers or their linguistic ancestors, speaking a language that later developed into Greek, entered the Aegean.

1-Origin of Greek speakers to the Balkans, from which waves of Indo-European speakers flowed into the north of Greece during the Bronze Age. These people came from the Eurasian steppe north of the Black and Caspian seas,] and they are referred to as the Proto Indo-Europeans. One problem with this theory is that the material culture relationship of Bronze Age populations of the Aegean with populations far to the north is very tenuous.
2-Origin of the Proto-Greeks further back in time, to approximately 3000 BCE at the start of the Early Bronze Age. It proposes that as migrants, they filled a largely depopulated landscape.
3-Origin of the Greeks goes even further back to the seventh millennium BCE and is associated with the view that the Greeks are descended from the first farmers who migrated into Europe from Anatolia.
4-A very late origin of Mycenaean elites, associated with chariot riding warriors from the Caucasus in approximately 1600 BCE and characterised by those buried in the Shaft Graves at Mycenae

Each one can choose the theory he/she likes the most, but all of them are subject to be confirmed by genetic studies, that is to say, first to discover definitively which were the uniparental markers of the Mycenaeans and then to trace the origin of these markers with the databases we have today. To date, only J2a and perhaps some marker related to early European farmers can be related to the ancient Greek.

Well, this is how Lazaridis modeled the Mycenaeans-Supplementary info, pag.34

*Table S2.10: N=3 modeling of Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik. Left=(Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik, Ref1, Ref2, Ref3). Right= All \ Left. Models with mixture proportions in [0, 1] interval and P-value for rank=2 ≥1 e-5 are shown.
Mixture proportions Standard errors
Ref1 Ref2 Ref3 P-value for rank=2 Ref1 Ref2 Ref3 Ref1 Ref2 Ref3
CHG Levant_N Anatolia_N- 2.37E-01 0.238 0.094 0.668 0.028 0.069 0.082
CHG Natufian Anatolia_N- 6.40E-02 0.191 0.246 0.563 0.025 0.099 0.115

Mycenaean- AGora3 Boncuklu Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik (1.17E-01)-0.170 0.181 0.650 / 0.020 0.127 0.133
Mycenaean- EHG Boncuklu Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik (8.82E-02)-0.089 0.007 0.904/ 0.014 0.152 0.150

Evidently the Mycenaeans have Levantine blood since they can be modeled with Anatolian-Tepecik-Ciftlik (65%), which in turn has 9.4% Levant-N or 24.6% Natufian, and even Anatolian-Tepecik-Ciftlik (90.4%) if EHG (8.9%) and Boncuklu (0.7%) are used

Against an Anatolian Neolithic baseline, Mycenaeans could not be modelled as having additional ancestry only from the Near East or continental Europe (Table S2.1), but could be modelled as having additional ancestry from both the Near East and eastern Europe/Siberia (Table S2.2). This suggests that at some time between the dispersal of early farmers into Europe and the mid-2nd millennium BCE, there was migration from both sources into continental Greece. While there might have been independent migrations from the north and east, the dynamics of this process are unclear and will be elucidated by further sampling. One possibility, suggested by our ability to model Mycenaeans as a mix of Minoans and steppe (and steppe-influenced) populations is that the eastern influence came first, creating a “Minoan-like” population in Crete and mainland Greece, while the northern influence came afterwards, adding extra ancestry on top of the Minoan-like substratum (Table S2.20). An alternative possibility is that the preMycenaean inhabitants of mainland Greece resembled the early Neolithic farmers and ~37-44% ancestry on top of the Anatolian Neolithic-like substratum was added from the east, from a population like those of Armenia
 
Wait... Did I miss something? Which one of the samples is African :O ?

Sorry but you should read the supplementary information

MIK08: haplogroup L-The MIK08 individual was associated with the African haplogroup L3d1b1. Haplogroup L3 sits at the root of the mtDNA phylogenetic tree of haplogroups found outside of Africa, and thus it is associated to the out of Africa expansion (Behar et al., 2008; Van Oven and Kayser, 2009). A HG individual with the haplogroup L was found in the African Mota Cave (Llorente et al., 2015) and in Iberia associated with the Bell Beaker culture (Olalde et al., 2018).
 
Manika is one of the first urban cities of the Early Helladic period (EH) (3,000-2,600 BCE) (Tab. i) in Greece and the Aegean. It is located 5 km to the north of Chalkis on the island of Euboea. The settlement extends to an area of at least 100 acres, though a large portion of this is now submerged under the sea. In 1955, surface reconnaissance in Euboea, Theocharis (1959) confirmed the existence of a small important prehistoric settlement (sector III). The enormous extent of the EH settlement remained unknown till 1982, thus the archaeological site continued to suffer destruction from cultivation

The Manika tombs belong to chamber-tombs consisting of a “dromos” (a corridor) and usually of one chamber, similar to the Mycenaean chamber-tombs
 
Anyway you don't have R1b-M269>L23 in the Bronze Age in Greece either, so either find it, or look for another theory to explain the Indo-European languages in Greece and Anatolia.

Concerning R1b-M269 and related (including lost) subclades they could have had some short of networks, so some subclades could have been expanding and rexpanding over them.
The prescence of L754 in Oman 5500 years ago likely shows that before the timeframe of IE migrations some R1b groups would have existed in Central Asia (the Kelteminar culture could have had R1b imho), or the Persian Golf etc. These groups did not make big demographic impact but that doesn't mean they did not exist. So if someone finds R1b e.g. in the Levant they should consider the possibility that it arrived from the east too (even though the ultimate origin is in Europe Villabruna, Iron Gates, Lepenski Vir etc.). I think, for example, the M269(xL51) sample in Askhelon (ASH 067) had more 'Iran Chalcolithic' related than non R1b samples in the same area. (?) That may point to an arrival from the east, even though in the relevant study they grouped ASH_IA1 samples together and modeled them as 43% ''Minoan".

philistines-admixture.png


So, even if someone finds R1b in Greece during the BA, they should also consider where it came from and where his ancestors were from. Was it Bulgaria, Armenia, Ukraine, Italy, the Levant, Albania? And does the place of origin work? Is it from a subclade that ever existed in the 'steppes' etc?
 
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