So what's your point![]()
The preservation of pre-Indo-European languages in Europe was something more ordinary than many people think.
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So what's your point![]()
The preservation of pre-Indo-European languages in Europe was something more ordinary than many people think.
What do you think about this language and its likelihood of being related to Hittite?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elymian_language
Disagree on what? Where would I have written that Etruscan civilization was less advanced than the Latin civilization of the same time period? The Etruscans were obviously the most advanced civilization of the early Iron Age of Italy. I don't think anyone can argue otherwise. Without the cultural influence of the Etruscans, the Latins would never have grown so quickly. The influence of the Etruscans reached as far as the Celts of central Europe. The Etruscans expanded from northern Italy (at the border with the populations of the Alps) to southern Italy in Campania. Etruscans were very receptive and were the first Pre-Roman era civilization to have such a wide range of interlocutors.
The commonplace is that only the Etruscans developed in the Italian Iron age. There were also differences in development between the various pre-Roman civilizations. Not all of them remained as isolated as the Ligurians. Other civilizations developed, even in northern Italy not only in southern Italy.
Certainly the Etruscans developed rapidly thanks also to the influences from the East. The important role of the Greeks in southern Italy, who did not profoundly influence the same Etruscans only, who had some settlement in Campania, but also the Latins and later Romans and other Italic populations. Just as important was the role of the Phoenicians who had settled in Pithekoussai, especially in the orientalizing phase.
The Etruscans influenced the Italic populations but in turn they were influenced by the Italic populations. It is precisely this continuous mutual influence that creates that ferment that will bring Rome from a small settlement to become first the capital of a Republic and then of an empire within a few centuries.
I must say I don't appreciate your tone, especially as I've never treated you with anything but the utmost respect, and defended you vociferously against claims you were some Nordicist from Italicroots. I also have lauded you for standing your ground in the face of attack here and elsewhere for insisting it was highly unlikely that the Etruscans were just transplanted West Asians. It's almost as if some of my analysis of these leaks has set you off. If you disagree, we can certainly debate it in a civil manner.
You compared the following civilizations to the Etruscans.
There is absolutely no comparison in terms of the sophistication of their civilizations.
What is the difference? Earlier exposure to and absorption of advancements from the east. That's just a fact. They "did not" come from central Europe.
Your specific quote was the following:
@Pax Augusta: good post.
I regreat I've not red your last post before to write my one to Ygorcs; I was not aware of this old IE substrata in Etruscan. (spite I'm surprised of so a precise statement for a supposed badly known language).
Golasecchian Celts? Really?
In questa chiave di lettura ci si sofferma su due momenti specifici: in primo luogo quello in cui nell’area della cosiddetta ‘cultura di Golasecca’ (ormai unanimemente riconosciuta come celtica)
In this interpretation, two specific moments are discussed: first, the one in which, in the area of the so-called 'Golasecca culture' (now unanimously recognized as Celtic).
Lemnos was inhabited by the Thracian tribe of Sintians, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintians, among other Greeks who probably settled in the Archaic Age.
An advantage they had over other Mediterranean cultures was their control of transalpine trade. The Hallstatt chiefs were the richest men in Europe at the time, and they bought Etruscan iron, textiles and other crafted goods.
The literal meaning of Samothrace/Samothraki is "tall Thrace". This is a synthetic word. Samothrace happens to have the tallest mountain in all of the Aegean, excluding Euboea and Crete. The same is true with the island of Samos, which also translates as "tall" which happens to have the second tallest mountain in all of the Aegean, excluding Euboea and Crete. Supposedly the word "samos" is a Phoenician loanword, originating from Phoenician "sama" meaning "high", although it could also be a Greek original.Yes, indeed. In fact, the name of the island north of Lemnos is precisely Samothrace (Samothraki). Can you find any sources in Greek to explain the name of this island?
There are a lot of similarities, and the Greek culture is also originated in West Asia.
The Etruscan alphabet, the Greek Alphabet and the Phoenician alphabet are all descended from the Sumerian alphabet.
Also Sumerians didn't have an alphabet, but a logographic and syllabic script. Phoenicians also didn't have what we would today consider a real alphabet, but an abjad/consonant script.you mean euobean alphabet
Euboean
The Euboean alphabet was used in the cities of Eretria and Chalkis and in related colonies in southern Italy, notably in Cumae and in Pithekoussai. It was through this variant that the Greek alphabet was transmitted to Italy, where it gave rise to the Old Italic alphabets, including Etruscan and ultimately the Latin alphabet. Some of the distinctive features of the Latin as compared to the standard Greek script are already present in the Euboean model.[34]
The Euboean alphabet belonged to the "western" ("red") type. It had Χ representing /ks/ and Ψ for /kʰ/. Like most early variants it also lacked Ω, and used Η for the consonant /h/ rather than for the vowel /ɛː/. It also kept the archaic letters digamma (Ϝ) for /w/ and qoppa (Ϙ) for /k/. San (Ϻ) for /s/ was not normally used in writing, but apparently still transmitted as part of the alphabet, because it occurs in abecedaria found in Italy and was later adopted by Etruscan.[34]
Like Athens, Euboea had a form of Λ that resembled a Latin L and a form of Σ that resembled a Latin S. Other elements foreshadowing the Latin forms include Γ shaped like a pointed C (), Δ shaped like a pointed D (
), and Ρ shaped like R (
).[34]
The classicist Barry B. Powell has proposed that Euboea may have been where the Greek alphabet was first employed in the late 9th century BC, and that it may have been invented specifically for the purpose of recording epic poetry.[35]
never heard of etruscan iron
noric steel , made by illyrian celts in noricum was the best iron weapons made ...........
The proverbial hardness of Noric steel is expressed by Ovid: "...durior [...] ferro quod noricus excoquit ignis..." which roughly translates to "...harder than iron tempered by Noric fire [was Anaxarete towards the advances of Iphis]..."[1] and it was widely used for the weapons of the Roman military after Noricum joined the empire in 16 BC.[2]
Agree
I dont think local is the right term to use. So, if the proto Etruscans and their language were the Early European Farmers, then it means their initial migration to Italy was from West Asia(through Turkey and Greece) after all, only it happened in the Neolithic.
Also, considering the fact that the Proto Iberian Bell Beakers were a mix of EEF and WHG, the leaked ancestry component of Bell Beakers could be related to the EEF people participating in the formation of the Bell Beaker culture in Iberia.
But what I think is that when the Steppe people and their Indo European language(coming from Central/North-Western Europe) replaced the populations in a lot of European areas in the Bronze Age, it could have been possible that these Early European Farmers from Italy migrated back towards the Aegean region (remaining unmixed in there, retaining their neolithic EEF autosomal ancestry component) when they met the expansions of the Corded Ware culture. And then during the Early Iron Age, a back migration happened from the Aegean region to Central Italy, mixing with the Italic people who were there since the Late Bronze Age.
There have been many university studies in the last 30 years on this association. In particular, the subject has been dealt with by Raffaele De Marinis who teaches archeology at the University of Milan.
https://www.iipp.it/wp-content/CurriculumdeMarinisnovembre2008.pdf
It is now accepted by many scholars that from Golasecca Celtic type ethnic groups emerge. Also because the language of the inscriptions associated with the Culture of Golasecca is Lepontic language that is considered a Celtic language to all intents and purposes. There is now a great consensus on this. Golasecca is the final result of a fusion of Ligurian-like elements (pre-Indo-European elements) with migrants who arrive from Urnfield culture and are proto-Celtic. It is the same kind of fusion that is also found in the late Bronze Age in non-Celtic cultures in Italy.
These are all texts adopted in university courses.
- Raffaele C. De Marinis, "I Celti golasecchiani", in "I Celti", Catalogo della Mostra di Palazzo Grassi a Venezia, Milano 1991, pp. 93-102.
- Raffaele C. De Marinis, "La civiltà di Golasecca: i più antichi Celti d'Italia", 2007
- Raffaele C. De Marinis, ''L’abitato protostorico di Como'', in "Como fra Etruschi e Celti. La città preromana e il suo ruolo commerciale", Catalogo della Mostra, Como, pp. 25-38.
- Studi sulla cultura celtica di Golasecca, Roma 2017
https://www.lerma1896.com/preview/zixu-1.pdf
This from the University of Padua:
La Civiltà di Golasecca gli Insubri, primi Celti d'Italia
https://www.beniculturali.unipd.it/...di-golasecca-gli-insubri-primi-celti-ditalia/
From the University of Venice - Ca' Foscari.
- Sull’alfabeto del celtico d’Italia, Patrizia Solinas (Università Ca’ Foscari Venezia, Italia)
English translation:
https://edizionicafoscari.unive.it/media/pdf/books/978-88-6969-062-4/978-88-6969-062-4-ch-04.pdf
Thracians in Lemnos? ok, but just read some interesting info here:
https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/6155.1-greek-speakers
well, I know to sum, 1 + 1 = 2, Etruscan and Lemnian are related, and Lemnos was inhabited by Pelasgians. Italian posters can deny the evidences, no matter.
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