David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

Hawk said:
So, Proto IE is from steppe, from Yamnaya. That's what the paper claims lol.
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Read more carefully.

The ancestry of Yamnaya was HALF West Asian, from both the Caucasus and the more southern Anatolian-Levantine continuum.
 
This Reich Southern Arch Paper is straight fire. Even Khan and the entire archaeogenetic community are

preparing for a showdown. Anyway, Friday’s showdown will decide whether Reich and team Anatolia will prevail over the Kurganists.
 
real expert said:
This Reich Southern Arch Paper is straight fire. Even Khan and the entire archaeogenetic community are

preparing for a showdown. Anyway, Friday’s showdown will decide whether Reich and team Anatolia will prevail over the Kurganists.
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It's science not a sports contest or Davidski v Reality.
 
Vallicanus said:
It's science not a sports contest or Davidski v Reality.
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Dude, chill and don‘t take everything so freaking seriously. And if you think that scientists are not competitive and thus want to be proven right and their theory validated, then you live in Lala land. Here is a quote from a scientist for a reality check.

"Science, I had come to learn, is as political, competitive, and fierce a career as you can find, full of the temptation to find easy paths." — Paul Kalanithi, neurosurgeon and writer (1977–2015)

Btw, stop pretending as if you won't react with utmost satisfaction when the Kurganists and Davidski get refuted by the Reich team.
 
Proto Indo-Anatolian (archaic PIE) --> Hittite (extint language).
Proto Indo-European (late PIE) --> preesent day IE languages.
Late PIE = creole language resulting from the junction of Indo-Anatolian (archaic PIE) and the language of the EHG population (Uralic? Siberian?).
In any case (according to the figure) the center of the Indo-Anatolian motherland is the Caucasus Mountains and not northern Iran (although the latter is also included), which means that a small part of Russia (Europe) also part of said territory (we have to be fair).
But in conclusion, I'll read the PDF and then say something, see you soon. ;)
 
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Just_a_Common_Guy said:
Proto Indo-Anatolian (archaic PIE) --> Hittite (extint language).
Proto Indo-European (late PIE) --> preesent day IE languages.
Late PIE = creole language resulting from the junction of Indo-Anatolian (archaic PIE) and the language of the EHG population (Uralic? Siberian?).
In any case (according to the figure) the center of the Indo-Anatolian motherland is the Caucasus Mountains and not northern Iran (although the latter is also included), which means that a small part of Russia (Europe) also part of said territory (we have to be fair). By the way: Slava Ukraini. Death to Putin! Free russia and Ukrain!
But in conclusion, I'll read the PDF and then say something, see you soon. ;)
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I'm not pro putin or anything, but is calling for the deaths of political figures really proper for this forum?
 
Please admins to keep this discussion out of the politics.
Science is not politically oriented.

Few weeks ago I was thinking about proto-IE, and I was at similar opinion as the latest publication of the teams of Reich. In my opinion D. Reich is a little bit late with this publication, because the genetic data is showing it clearly: the impact of the step on the genomic of Europe is not that much compared with the impact of India/Pakistan and Neolitic Anatolia. If the Steppe was the homeland of IE, and we see such huge expansion of IE towards Europe and South Asia - then why we don't see such expansion to the North of Yamnaya or to the East of it? There are still too many questions. In the last 3 publications from today I don't find my answers. I was expecting to see rejection of Kurgan hypothesis , but instead I see some complicated mixture with the existing theory.
 
Bgtrak said:
Please admins to keep this discussion out of the politics.
Science is not politically oriented.

Few weeks ago I was thinking about proto-IE, and I was at similar opinion as the latest publication of the teams of Reich. In my opinion D. Reich is a little bit late with this publication, because the genetic data is showing it clearly: the impact of the step on the genomic of Europe is not that much compared with the impact of India/Pakistan and Neolitic Anatolia. If the Steppe was the homeland of IE, and we see such huge expansion of IE towards Europe and South Asia - then why we don't see such expansion to the North of Yamnaya or to the East of it? There are still too many questions. In the last 3 publications from today I don't find my answers. I was expecting to see rejection of Kurgan hypothesis , but instead I see some complicated mixture with the existing theory.
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I think you are the only one who wants to tie this discussion to politics, "the impact of India/Pakistan and Neolithic Anatolia" but not "Iran"!!
 
Moja said:
I think you are the only one who wants to tie this discussion to politics, "the impact of India/Pakistan and Neolithic Anatolia" but not "Iran"!!
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There is nothing from me about politics, there are some geographical locations when mentioning India or Pakistan. I think the origin of the first PIE should be located somewhere in Pakistan, but it could be also Afganistan or Iran. Because Iran is the place for mixture with Neolitic farmers /afro-asiatic languages/.
 
Bgtrak said:
There is nothing from me about politics, there are some geographical locations when mentioning India or Pakistan. I think the origin of the first PIE should be located somewhere in Pakistan, but it could be also Afganistan or Iran. Because Iran is the place for mixture with Neolitic farmers /afro-asiatic languages/.
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Yeah, this is the theory I have and its very well developed and can answer most of the questions. Unfortunately, I dont have a blog or anything yet where it is written up in complete form.

Basically, the dispersal point of most recent (50K) Eurasian DNA is starting from the Gujarat region of Western India. This coastal region provided the Cattle to be domesticated for the PIE culture. These Cattle were taken Northwards via Sindh into the Indus and its tributaries. From there to KPK in Pak and from there into Central Asia mixing with Steppe peoples.

Ancient Steppe peoples have the most genetic affinity to Ong (ie ASI or whatever) compared to Iran_N, Anatolian, WHG and ANE. So there is more recent genetic contact between Steppe and South Asians than between South Asians and Iran_N, Anatolian, ANE etc. Check my earlier post for the fstats on this.

Iran_N Has separated from South Asians a very long time ago and geneflow between them ceased. Thus Iran_N has some greater affinity to more isolated Western South Asians such as Baloch and Pashtun. This separation may have happened in NW South Asia or Central Asia.

For Anatolians, Steppe and ANE the separation point is from the SE of the Steppe and Central Asia. Tajikistan_C_Sarazm looks very central in the Phylogeny and has greater affinity to South Asians and also Kostenki14 than other Steppe populations. This sample is usually modelled as Iran_N + ANE but this modelling hints at the older genesis of this sample, because Iran_N and ANE seem to have separated very early from the common dispersal point, before CHG and EHG developed into their own unique genetic profile. So because Iran_N and ANE developed earlier they have more affinity to the older and more genetically conservative Sarazm nomad.

The EHG profile develops in the NW part of the Steppe and thus it has some Anatolian (W) affinity and ANE (N) affinity. But EHG develops later after Iran_N and ANE have split off and there is still contact between South Asians and the Westen Steppe. It looks like Oxus and East Caspian region may have been an outlet for tribes leaving South Asia, as both the Steppe and South Asia had a common nomadic culture well after West Asia had transitioned to the Neolithic.
 
eurasiadna said:
I have another theory which is quite the opposite from the mainstream.

Firstly, there is little or no admixture going on. So, things like Yamnya being a mix of CHG/Iran_N and EHG is an incorrect way of looking at things. What is really happening is that there is divergence from a common dispersal point that gives rise to different groups like ANE (MA1, Botai etc), Anatolian, CHG, Iran_N etc. This dispersal point is either in Central Asia (Steppe DNA) or Northern South Asia.

If we look at Genetic Distance (F3) to South Asians for Steppe groups, we get


Code: 
1 ONG.SG Kazakhstan_Eneolithic_Botai Chimp.REF  217.   1.45   149. 62958
 2 ONG.SG Russia_Late_Sarmatian.SG    Chimp.REF  216.   1.34   162. 73724
 3 ONG.SG Russia_HG_Karelia.SG        Chimp.REF  215.   1.44   150. 63238
 4 ONG.SG Tajikistan_C_Sarazm         Chimp.REF  215.   1.46   147. 57720
 5 ONG.SG Russia_Andronovo.SG         Chimp.REF  214.   1.28   168. 77585
 6 ONG.SG Luxembourg_Loschbour        Chimp.REF  214.   1.58   135. 52164
 7 ONG.SG Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG      Chimp.REF  214.   1.44   148. 60555
 8 ONG.SG Russia_Afanasievo           Chimp.REF  214.   1.19   179. 86733
 9 ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta       Chimp.REF  214.   1.18   181. 87459
10 ONG.SG Turkmenistan_IA.SG          Chimp.REF  213.   1.51   141. 60093
11 ONG.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG           Chimp.REF  212.   1.42   149. 72021
12 ONG.SG Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1     Chimp.REF  212.   1.29   164. 68232
13 ONG.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N            Chimp.REF  212.   1.22   174. 74888
14 ONG.SG Anatolia_N                  Chimp.REF  212.   1.17   180. 88294
15 ONG.SG Iran_C_TepeHissar           Chimp.REF  211.   1.23   171. 73247


16 Ror    Russia_Late_Sarmatian.SG    Chimp.REF  226.   1.26   179. 74373
17 Ror    Kazakhstan_Eneolithic_Botai Chimp.REF  226.   1.35   167. 64085
18 Ror    Tajikistan_C_Sarazm         Chimp.REF  226.   1.44   157. 58663
19 Ror    Russia_HG_Karelia.SG        Chimp.REF  226.   1.41   160. 64542
20 Ror    Russia_MLBA_Sintashta       Chimp.REF  225.   1.14   198. 86678
21 Ror    Russia_Afanasievo           Chimp.REF  225.   1.15   195. 86057
22 Ror    Russia_Andronovo.SG         Chimp.REF  225.   1.24   182. 77848
23 Ror    Georgia_Kotias.SG           Chimp.REF  224.   1.41   159. 73410
24 Ror    Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG      Chimp.REF  224.   1.47   152. 61866
25 Ror    Turkmenistan_IA.SG          Chimp.REF  223.   1.47   152. 61317
26 Ror    Iran_GanjDareh_N            Chimp.REF  223.   1.19   188. 74948
27 Ror    Iran_C_TepeHissar           Chimp.REF  222.   1.23   181. 73033
28 Ror    Turkmenistan_Gonur_BA_1     Chimp.REF  222.   1.27   176. 68498
29 Ror    Anatolia_N                  Chimp.REF  222.   1.12   198. 87601
30 Ror    Luxembourg_Loschbour        Chimp.REF  222.   1.50   148. 53596

Below are the top 5 for ONG and Ror

1 ONG.SG Kazakhstan_Eneolithic_Botai Chimp.REF 217. 1.45 149. 62958
2 ONG.SG Russia_Late_Sarmatian.SG Chimp.REF 216. 1.34 162. 73724
3 ONG.SG Russia_HG_Karelia.SG Chimp.REF 215. 1.44 150. 63238
4 ONG.SG Tajikistan_C_Sarazm Chimp.REF 215. 1.46 147. 57720
5 ONG.SG Russia_Andronovo.SG Chimp.REF 214. 1.28 168. 77585

16 Ror Russia_Late_Sarmatian.SG Chimp.REF 226. 1.26 179. 74373
17 Ror Kazakhstan_Eneolithic_Botai Chimp.REF 226. 1.35 167. 64085
18 Ror Tajikistan_C_Sarazm Chimp.REF 226. 1.44 157. 58663
19 Ror Russia_HG_Karelia.SG Chimp.REF 226. 1.41 160. 64542
20 Ror Russia_MLBA_Sintashta Chimp.REF 225. 1.14 198. 86678

Checking for closeness to Ong is important because that rules out the possibility of Steppe Migrations mediating this genetic relationship. Its pretty obvious that the relationship between Steppe and South Asians is not mediated by supposed LBA Steppe Migration into South Asia, rather different groups are most close to South Asians (and ONG). This most likely reflects on-going South Asian genetic influence into Central Asia and the Steppe.

Also note that Steppe is much closer to South Asians than Iran_N or other farmers (Gonur, Hissar). This is interesting and is most likely due to the higher level of mixing between South Asians and Steppe (nomadic peoples moving around and mixing more) while the Iranian farmers had been isolated from this since much earlier times.

IE cannot easily be separated easily by any kind of genetic argument. Most likely alot of these peoples who are non-Indo European such as Semitic and Caucasian probably spoke an IE langauage at one time, but due to their earlier separation those languages have drifted sufficiently to be no longer grouped with the others, and losing all traces to their common IE origin. This makes sense because non-IE peoples like the Caucasians and Semites all originated via the same process (separating from the others via South-Central Asia) but they are just genetically more distant due to having separated earlier.

The known IE speakers, and the R1A lineages found outside India, all tend to me peoples who are closer to South Asians, but more importantly closer to Ong. Checking for closeness to Ong is important because that rules the possibility of Steppe Migrations mediating this genetic relationship. So, R1 and the most 'conservative' IE languages in Europe are those that have expanded last from Central Asia into Europe, hence their genetic and linguistic similarity to South Asians.

Lastly, MOST populations are being modelled as mixes ie Steppe and South Asians, are not actually mixes. Rather, those populations that these are supposedly mixed from actually originated from South Asians and Steppe. So, Steppe DNA has existed in some form for a long time, ANE is the Eastern drfit of Steppe, Anatolian is the Western drift, EHG North-Western, and Iran_N likely has something similar to Steppe DNA going into it from Central Asia.
Click to expand...
eurasiadna said:
Yeah, this is the theory I have and its very well developed and can answer most of the questions. Unfortunately, I dont have a blog or anything yet where it is written up in complete form.

Basically, the dispersal point of most recent (50K) Eurasian DNA is starting from the Gujarat region of Western India. This coastal region provided the Cattle to be domesticated for the PIE culture. These Cattle were taken Northwards via Sindh into the Indus and its tributaries. From there to KPK in Pak and from there into Central Asia mixing with Steppe peoples.

Ancient Steppe peoples have the most genetic affinity to Ong (ie ASI or whatever) compared to Iran_N, Anatolian, WHG and ANE. So there is more recent genetic contact between Steppe and South Asians than between South Asians and Iran_N, Anatolian, ANE etc. Check my earlier post for the fstats on this.

Iran_N Has separated from South Asians a very long time ago and geneflow between them ceased. Thus Iran_N has some greater affinity to more isolated Western South Asians such as Baloch and Pashtun. This separation may have happened in NW South Asia or Central Asia.

For Anatolians, Steppe and ANE the separation point is from the SE of the Steppe and Central Asia. Tajikistan_C_Sarazm looks very central in the Phylogeny and has greater affinity to South Asians and also Kostenki14 than other Steppe populations. This sample is usually modelled as Iran_N + ANE but this modelling hints at the older genesis of this sample, because Iran_N and ANE seem to have separated very early from the common dispersal point, before CHG and EHG developed into their own unique genetic profile. So because Iran_N and ANE developed earlier they have more affinity to the older and more genetically conservative Sarazm nomad.

The EHG profile develops in the NW part of the Steppe and thus it has some Anatolian (W) affinity and ANE (N) affinity. But EHG develops later after Iran_N and ANE have split off and there is still contact between South Asians and the Westen Steppe. It looks like Oxus and East Caspian region may have been an outlet for tribes leaving South Asia, as both the Steppe and South Asia had a common nomadic culture well after West Asia had transitioned to the Neolithic.
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What is this ROR population that you use to measure the distance ?
 
bicicleur 2 said:
I think predicting what will be in the paper is the same as wishfull thinking
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Its funny that while I would have agreed with your comment, I somehow got the main logical flow of the paper down to the T. Stuff like IE CHG link, and main evidence being the lack of evidence, namely IE unipaternals without the autosomal signature around Anatolia. ie. since Yamnaya is CHG-EHG mix that would show itself as a lack of EHG, since we already knew CHG pulses from previous papers and the abstract. To lazy to find the posts and quote myself, but I'm pretty sure I was not the only one in this camp, the thing is I still thought even with CHG association to IE, the steppe would have been the starting ground, which it seems I was wrong on.

Now although I am in the IE CHG camp, meaning on the same page as Lazaridis, I do think lack of evidence to the contrary does not constitute evidence in itself.

Overall, we suggest that a scenario in which Anatolian and Indo-European languages are descended from a common West Asian progenitor matches the evidence of population change provided by ancient DNA for four reasons. First, the genetic transformation of Anatolia after the Neolithic and before the Late Chalcolithic (Fig. 2) was a clear opportunity for linguistic spread resulting in the coexistence of Hattic and Anatolian languages. Second, the two transformations of steppe populations during the Eneolithic and before the Bronze Age, with their strong south-north directionality (Fig. 3), were opportunities for linguistic spread and match exactly the Anatolia/Indo-European split inferred by linguists. Third, steppe migrations into regions where Indo-European daughter languages were spoken, such as the Balkans (Fig. 4), Armenia (Fig. 5), Central/Northern Europe (4, 8, 36), and Central/South Asia (4, 34), were clear opportunities for the disintegration of Proto-Indo-European and the dispersal of its daughter languages across Eurasia. Fourth, the absence of such migrations into Anatolia (Fig. 2F), in contrast to both neighboring Armenia and Southeastern Europe [Figs. 4 and 5 and - (6)], makes Anatolia the only exception in the association of steppe ancestry with IndoAnatolian languages.
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Bgtrak said:
What is this ROR population that you use to measure the distance ?
Click to expand...
Ror is a population of Indo Aryans (Hindu Ksatriya caste I think) from Haryana. I use them in the calcs because they look like the best proxy for an ancient population based around the Indus river from which other Indo Aryans and NW Eurasians descend.

This is because most NW Eurasians ancient and modern are closest to Ror compared to other Indo Aryans. Also, other Indo Aryans are also closest to Ror compared to each other. So its like Ror is the central point of dispersal hence most many pops are closer to Ror than anyone else.

Although this population is currently found to the East of the Indus in Haryana, there are folk histories that tie them to the Sindh from where they originated.

From all the Indo Aryan groups that we have DNA from, the Ror seem closest to the central point in the expansion. It seems there may have been an ancient nomadic population based around Sindh which were the Rigvedic Aryans but they may have dispersed over time and settled in other regions due to pressure from the West and economic and political pressure to move into the Neolithic settled way of life.

Code: 
A                       B                       C            f3 stderr Zscore nsnps
1 Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Russia_Afanasievo       Chimp.REF  225.   1.47   153. 65284
2 Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Ror                     Chimp.REF  222.   1.49   149. 56898
3 Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Pathan                  Chimp.REF  221.   1.40   158. 71296
4 Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Jatt                    Chimp.REF  221.   1.62   137. 49023
5 Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Iran_GanjDareh_N        Chimp.REF  220.   1.47   150. 52014
6 Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Chimp.REF    0   -1        0     -1

7 Iran_GanjDareh_N        Russia_Afanasievo       Chimp.REF  224.   1.17   191. 81737
8 Iran_GanjDareh_N        Ror                     Chimp.REF  223.   1.19   188. 74948
9 Iran_GanjDareh_N        Pathan                  Chimp.REF  223.   1.12   199. 88389
10 Iran_GanjDareh_N        Jatt                    Chimp.REF  222.   1.30   170. 69167
11 Iran_GanjDareh_N        Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Chimp.REF  220.   1.47   150. 52014
12 Iran_GanjDareh_N        Iran_GanjDareh_N        Chimp.REF    0   -1        0     -1

13 Jatt                    Russia_Afanasievo       Chimp.REF  224.   1.24   181. 83899
14 Jatt                    Ror                     Chimp.REF  224.   1.25   178. 76100
15 Jatt                    Pathan                  Chimp.REF  223.   1.17   190. 92082
16 Jatt                    Iran_GanjDareh_N        Chimp.REF  222.   1.30   170. 69167
17 Jatt                    Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Chimp.REF  221.   1.62   137. 49023
18 Jatt                    Jatt                    Chimp.REF    0   -1        0     -1

19 Pathan                  Russia_Afanasievo       Chimp.REF  224.   1.08   207. 92681
20 Pathan                  Ror                     Chimp.REF  224.   1.09   206. 92463
21 Pathan                  Jatt                    Chimp.REF  223.   1.17   190. 92082
22 Pathan                  Iran_GanjDareh_N        Chimp.REF  223.   1.12   199. 88389
23 Pathan                  Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Chimp.REF  221.   1.40   158. 71296
24 Pathan                  Pathan                  Chimp.REF    0   -1        0     -1

25 Ror                     Russia_Afanasievo       Chimp.REF  225.   1.15   195. 86057
26 Ror                     Pathan                  Chimp.REF  224.   1.09   206. 92463
27 Ror                     Jatt                    Chimp.REF  224.   1.25   178. 76100
28 Ror                     Iran_GanjDareh_N        Chimp.REF  223.   1.19   188. 74948
29 Ror                     Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Chimp.REF  222.   1.49   149. 56898
30 Ror                     Ror                     Chimp.REF    0   -1        0     -1

31 Russia_Afanasievo       Ror                     Chimp.REF  225.   1.15   195. 86057
32 Russia_Afanasievo       Anatolia_Epipaleolithic Chimp.REF  225.   1.47   153. 65284
33 Russia_Afanasievo       Pathan                  Chimp.REF  224.   1.08   207. 92681
34 Russia_Afanasievo       Jatt                    Chimp.REF  224.   1.24   181. 83899
35 Russia_Afanasievo       Iran_GanjDareh_N        Chimp.REF  224.   1.17   191. 81737
36 Russia_Afanasievo       Russia_Afanasievo       Chimp.REF    0   -1        0     -1

The Ror and Jatt samples I use come from a study by Pathak where he looked at Rors, Jatts and Gujjars. He concluded that Rors were the closest to West Eurasians but I think that was already suspected prior to his study.
 
eurasiadna said:
The Ror and Jatt samples I use come from a study by Pathak where he looked at Rors, Jatts and Gujjars. He concluded that Rors were the closest to West Eurasians but I think that was already suspected prior to his study.
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I was checking for similar connections with Kusunda people.
Could you check what is the distance between Kusunda / Ror by using your system ?
I have several other populations in the center, however we must admit this "center" was aslo the starting point for all other populations outside of Africa. I am almost sure Kusunda stayed on their original place and did not mix much with Steppes or Anatolia. But more verifications will be needed.
 
Bgtrak said:
I was checking for similar connections with Kusunda people.
Could you check what is the distance between Kusunda / Ror by using your system ?
I have several other populations in the center, however we must admit this "center" was aslo the starting point for all other populations outside of Africa. I am almost sure Kusunda stayed on their original place and did not mix much with Steppes or Anatolia. But more verifications will be needed.
Click to expand...

I think that would be off-topic for this thread. I'm gonna try and publish this stuff on a blog somewhere and then we can have deeper discussions.
 
Bgtrak said:
There is nothing from me about politics, there are some geographical locations when mentioning India or Pakistan. I think the origin of the first PIE should be located somewhere in Pakistan, but it could be also Afganistan or Iran. Because Iran is the place for mixture with Neolitic farmers /afro-asiatic languages/.
Click to expand...

India and Pakistan were the land of Dravidian, Burushaski, Munda and other Non-Indo-European people, IE languages spread there too.
 
eurasiadna said:
I think that would be off-topic for this thread. I'm gonna try and publish this stuff on a blog somewhere and then we can have deeper discussions.
Click to expand...
Just a small correction. Forget about Kusunda people, it is about Kalasha. (My mistake, because I always mix them a little bit, however Kalasha are the IE, Kusunda are totally different language group).

See: [h=1]The Genetic Ancestry of Modern Indus Valley Populations from Northwest India[/h]Ajai K. Pathak
Figure S11. Maximum Likelihood tree of TreeMix relationship of NorthwestIndian groups with neighboring Pakistani and other Eurasians inferred by TreeMixshowing Ror and Kalash in the same clade.
Ror people and Kalasha are on the same branch, exactly in the middle, we can say at the root.
 
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