Were the Croatians originally Slavic?

Dorianfinder said:
Your Achilles heal is the 37% I2a found on the island of Sardinia. Not to mention that Sarmatia had very high R1a.

Conclusion:
The lack of R1a in Serbs makes the Sarmatian theory unlikely.

The diffusion of I2a was from the Balkans to the Danube and Wallachia-Moldova.

I2a is concentrated along the West coast of the Dinaric Alps and Sardinia. I2a spread out from this region. The 12a in ancient Sarmatia appears to have been insignificant or extremely low! let me explain ...

Early Byzantine-era migration from the Balkans is what formed the unique Wallachia-Moldovan Principality. Wallachia means foreigner and I2a is centered in the previous States of Wallachia where history is clear that Balkanic peoples settled here.

The Bulgarian Kingdom cut the Wallachia-Moldovan Principalities off from the south Balkans from as early as the 10th century. The Bulgarian influence spread Cyrillic but Wallachia-Moldova was predominantly under anti-Bulgarian Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople who made continuous efforts to settle Orthodox Greeks & Serbians to strengthen Orthodoxy in the Polish and Hungarian dominated region! The remnants of these Orthodox Balkanic settlers are the Vlachs or 'Foreigners' in Romania.

Today, political sampling and categorization allocates individuals sampled from this region to modern Romania but they were until recently Wallachia-Moldovans, this is why Romania has 26% I2a and the Vlachs have over 20%.

800px-Ukraine_topo_en.jpg
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I2a in Sardinia is diferent subclade then I2a2-Din , so they do not have to be conected at all . Aldo I believe southern mountains on Sardinia was place were Vandal and Alans from North Africa escaped after Justinian took they kingdom ( Sardinia is also part of Vandalo-Alanic kingdom ( After escape from Spain Vandals and Alans joined under one king and in one nation ) . I2a on Sardinia is same subclade like Basque , Aragon (both 9% ) and Lybian ( 1% ) and that all places were Alano-Vandals use to live.
Where did you get informations Sarmatian DNA was R1a ? What land do you call Sarmatia , because Sarmatians are moving westward since V century BC.
I2a2 in Moldavia and Romania was by my oppinion sign of Anti tribes and Iazigi that use to live there .And I2a2 in Vlachs is weaker than in Serbs - it is more possible they taked it from Serbs and Moldavians then other way around .Thanks for answering
 
Bodin said:
I2a in Sardinia is diferent subclade then I2a2-Din , so they do not have to be conected at all .
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I2a1 developed in Sardinia, STR analysis puts the TMRCA at approximately 8000 years ago.

I2a2 developed in the Dinaric Alps, STR analysis puts the TMRCA at approximately 7500 year ago.

I2a1 is the older sister clade of I2a2 suggesting the diffusion was from the West to the East along the Mediterranean.

Bodin said:
Where did you get informations Sarmatian DNA was R1a ? What land do you call Sarmatia , because Sarmatians are moving westward since V century BC.
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Sarmatia was originally located in modern South Russia, the Ukraine (43% R1a & 21% I2a) and the East Balkans (Romania, Moldova). This you can see in the map you posted of ancient Sarmatian territory, it is also found in numerous historical sources. R1a is by far the most common hg in these regions. Romania is the exception with its highest hg being I2a (26%) and R1a (18%) its second highest. This is because of settlement from the Dinaric populations in the Balkans as I've said.

Comparing R1a and I2a we find a West to East diffusion of I2a and an East to West diffusion of R1a:
Serbia has 15% R1a and 34.5% I2a
Romania has 18% R1a and 26% I2a
Ukraine has 43% R1a and 21% I2a

The Indo-Iranian invasion of South Asia was responsible for bringing more than 40% R1a to northern India.

Bodin said:
I2a2 in Vlachs is weaker than in Serbs - it is more possible they taked it from Serbs and Moldavians then other way around .Thanks for answering
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The Vlachs were composed of both Greeks and Serbian Orthodox settlers. There is less I2a (20.5% I2a) in Vlachs because the Greeks carried more R1b, E-V13 and J2. Modern Romania confirms that the Greeks infiltrated the region with 16% R1b, 13% J2 & 10% E-V13. Wallachia and Moldova were combined into a Principality which covers the modern populations of Romania and Moldova today. The Vlachs were concentrated in both Moldova and Wallachia as it was the same place, called Moldovlachia or the Principality of Wallachia-Moldova.
 
Dorianfinder said:
I2a1 developed in Sardinia, STR analysis puts the TMRCA at approximately 8000 years ago.

I2a2 developed in the Dinaric Alps, STR analysis puts the TMRCA at approximately 7500 year ago.

I2a1 is the older sister clade of I2a2 suggesting the diffusion was from the West to the East along the Mediterranean.



Sarmatia was originally located in modern South Russia, the Ukraine (43% R1a & 21% I2a) and the East Balkans (Romania, Moldova). This you can see in the map you posted of ancient Sarmatian territory, it is also found in numerous historical sources. R1a is by far the most common hg in these regions. Romania is the exception with its highest hg being I2a (26%) and R1a (18%) its second highest. This is because of settlement from the Dinaric populations in the Balkans as I've said.

Comparing R1a and I2a we find a West to East diffusion of I2a and an East to West diffusion of R1a:
Serbia has 15% R1a and 34.5% I2a
Romania has 18% R1a and 26% I2a
Ukraine has 43% R1a and 21% I2a

The Indo-Iranian invasion of South Asia was responsible for bringing more than 40% R1a to northern India.



The Vlachs were composed of both Greeks and Serbian Orthodox settlers. There is less I2a (20.5% I2a) in Vlachs because the Greeks carried more R1b, E-V13 and J2. Modern Romania confirms that the Greeks infiltrated the region with 16% R1b, 13% J2 & 10% E-V13. Wallachia and Moldova were combined into a Principality which covers the modern populations of Romania and Moldova today. The Vlachs were concentrated in both Moldova and Wallachia as it was the same place, called Moldovlachia or the Principality of Wallachia-Moldova.
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Exactly what I said sister from 8000 years ago , lot of things and moving hapen in 8000 years remember how many movings hapen in last 2000 .

Yes R1a is prevalent because before Saramatians in that land were Scythians ( R1a) , and after Slavics R1a again) , in Romania and Moldavia there is more I2a2 because of tribe of Ants -Saramatian ( Ptolemy) and Yaziges who conquered Dacia after Roman retreat .

Yes the Slavs are reletives with Aryans that conquered India not Saramatians.

What Greeks settlements in Romania ? Exept in cities on Black see there has no been Greeks . Dacians like cousins ( northern branch ) of Thraceans had J2 , some R1a , E1b1b1, G , some R1b from mixing with Celts , and some old I2*B
Vlachs were not composed of Serbs or Greeks they were separate group of Romanized Balkans , they only mixed with Serbs and Greeks , and parts of Serb and Greek peasants escaped from their feudal lows becoming more free Vlachs , most of Vlachs I2a2 is from Romania where from some of them come to Balkans. Thanks for replying
 
Bodin said:
What Greeks settlements in Romania ? Exept in cities on Black see there has no been Greeks . Dacians like cousins ( northern branch ) of Thraceans had J2 , some R1a , E1b1b1, G , some R1b from mixing with Celts , and some old I2*B
Vlachs were not composed of Serbs or Greeks they were separate group of Romanized Balkans , they only mixed with Serbs and Greeks , and parts of Serb and Greek peasants escaped from their feudal lows becoming more free Vlachs , most of Vlachs I2a2 is from Romania where from some of them come to Balkans. Thanks for replying
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The Greek cities on the Black Sea, Pontus and Nicaea only sent relatively small groups of settlers to live in Wallachia and Moldova during the 14th century. Larger groups fled the Ottoman pogrom of the Empire of Trapezunda in the 1360's. Greeks were active in the region before this with a substantial shipping infrastructure having been developed from families primarily from South Greece (Peloponnese) and Crete. Many Greeks were merchants from Constantinople and Epirus, others were Greek Orthodox/Romanian Orthodox priests. Many Epirote families related to them still call themselves Romani or Vlach.

The Dragomans and Ottoman diplomats, governors were Greeks originally from the Greek community of Wallachia-Moldovan Principality. Some of these families kept records from the Byzantine Empire. The Greek War of Liberation's secret society was started by the Greek community from Phanar in Constantinople who held family estates in Wallachia-Moldova. A large number of Greek peasant population had developed from earlier Byzantine-era settlement. Serbian Orthodox soldiers had also settled here with the Byzantine military. The Greek shipping community traded along the Danube with the large Greek Orthodox community in Poland and Hungary.

The Greeks formed a significant settlement in Cretatea-Alba on the Black Sea coast of Moldova. The castle of Cetatea-Alba was a Byzantine fort originally known as Asprocastro.
220px-Partitions_of_Moldavia.jpg

Territories of the medieval Principality of Moldavia are now split between Romania in blue, Moldova in green, and Ukraine in pink (Chernivtsi oblast and Budjak).
 
Dorianfinder said:
The Greek cities on the Black Sea, Pontus and Nicaea only sent relatively small groups of settlers to live in Wallachia and Moldova during the 14th century. Larger groups fled the Ottoman pogrom of the Empire of Trapezunda in the 1360's. Greeks were active in the region before this with a substantial shipping infrastructure having been developed from families primarily from South Greece (Peloponnese) and Crete. Many Greeks were merchants from Constantinople and Epirus, others were Greek Orthodox/Romanian Orthodox priests. Many Epirote families related to them still call themselves Romani or Vlach.

The Dragomans and Ottoman diplomats, governors were Greeks originally from the Greek community of Wallachia-Moldovan Principality. Some of these families kept records from the Byzantine Empire. The Greek War of Liberation's secret society was started by the Greek community from Phanar in Constantinople who held family estates in Wallachia-Moldova. A large number of Greek peasant population had developed from earlier Byzantine-era settlement. Serbian Orthodox soldiers had also settled here with the Byzantine military. The Greek shipping community traded along the Danube with the large Greek Orthodox community in Poland and Hungary.

The Greeks formed a significant settlement in Cretatea-Alba on the Black Sea coast of Moldova. The castle of Cetatea-Alba was a Byzantine fort originally known as Asprocastro.
220px-Partitions_of_Moldavia.jpg

Territories of the medieval Principality of Moldavia are now split between Romania in blue, Moldova in green, and Ukraine in pink (Chernivtsi oblast and Budjak).
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I remembered I have heard something about Greeks in Besarabia . Thanks for puting light on that part of Balkanic history . But all of Romanian and Moldavian R1b , J2 and E1b1b cannt be Greek , maybe small portion.
 
Bodin said:
I remembered I have heard something about Greeks in Besarabia . Thanks for puting light on that part of Balkanic history . But all of Romanian and Moldavian R1b , J2 and E1b1b cannt be Greek , maybe small portion.
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We should never try to fit haplogroups to specific populations. Only in rare cases such as Wallachia and Moldova do we have a unique example of recent gene flow events we can use to justify some of the J2, E-V13 and R1b-U152 within the Greek-speaking Vlach population. The Romanian J2, E-V13 and much less R1b-U152 could be from a local diffusion of Vlach peoples, however not enough data is available to substantiate this.

Most of the time subclades are introduced during prehistoric times, this can be evidenced by levels of G throughout many countries at very low levels. Only in rare cases such as Moldova where the surrounding genetic composition is strikingly different can we use the verifiable and recent population movements to build a tentative case for the introduction of those unique markers not otherwise found in the broader region in similar quantities or with the same structure (genetic correlations). An alternative scenario for the elevated J2 is that it may have been introduced separately by Tatars from the East. However this is less likely as the structure of the region's genetic data suggests that J2 is found in direct correlation with R1b and E-V13. The Tataric peoples did not carry any R1b-U152 and E-V13, the E-V13 being attributed to the Balkans and the R1b-U152 attributed to the Roman or Dorian 'proto-Celtic' Greeks. Another scenario for U152 is also that it could have arrived with the Genoese who colonized Caffa, however this is unlikely too as the Genoese and Venetians arrived long after the Greek Vlach community was well established in the 10th century. Only the Greek and Roman population had similar admixture (J2, U152, E-V13) however I will lean towards the Greeks as the Vlachs have always used Greek and exclusively write in Greek with most of their vocabulary coming from the Demotic Greek spoken during the Byzantine Empire.

Thus, to summarize, I make the case using the genetic structure not found in the surrounding/neighboring population. Their frequencies, the unique aspects of Moldova and Wallachia and why they have always preferred independence rather than unite with either Ukraine or Romania. Also the unique linguistic traits the Moldovan and Wallachian Vlachs carry. Then geographically I explain how they arrived, from where and for what purpose using historical documentation of population movements. To close I add a final paragraph stating that most Vlachs today reside in the Greek Pindos mountain range with an estimated figure of 700 000 traditional Vlach whi still speak the Vlach language spoken in and developed in Moldovlachia.

The theory can never be beyond criticism and needs to comply with statistical validity and reliability protocols.

attachment.php
 
Dorianfinder said:
We should never try to fit haplogroups to specific populations. Only in rare cases such as Wallachia and Moldova do we have a unique example of recent gene flow events we can use to justify some of the J2, E-V13 and R1b-U152 within the Greek-speaking Vlach population. The Romanian J2, E-V13 and much less R1b-U152 could be from a local diffusion of Vlach peoples, however not enough data is available to substantiate this.

Most of the time subclades are introduced during prehistoric times, this can be evidenced by levels of G throughout many countries at very low levels. Only in rare cases such as Moldova where the surrounding genetic composition is strikingly different can we use the verifiable and recent population movements to build a tentative case for the introduction of those unique markers not otherwise found in the broader region in similar quantities or with the same structure (genetic correlations). An alternative scenario for the elevated J2 is that it may have been introduced separately by Tatars from the East. However this is less likely as the structure of the region's genetic data suggests that J2 is found in direct correlation with R1b and E-V13. The Tataric peoples did not carry any R1b-U152 and E-V13, the E-V13 being attributed to the Balkans and the R1b-U152 attributed to the Roman or Dorian 'proto-Celtic' Greeks. Another scenario for U152 is also that it could have arrived with the Genoese who colonized Caffa, however this is unlikely too as the Genoese and Venetians arrived long after the Greek Vlach community was well established in the 10th century. Only the Greek and Roman population had similar admixture (J2, U152, E-V13) however I will lean towards the Greeks as the Vlachs have always used Greek and exclusively write in Greek with most of their vocabulary coming from the Demotic Greek spoken during the Byzantine Empire.

Thus, to summarize, I make the case using the genetic structure not found in the surrounding/neighboring population. Their frequencies, the unique aspects of Moldova and Wallachia and why they have always preferred independence rather than unite with either Ukraine or Romania. Also the unique linguistic traits the Moldovan and Wallachian Vlachs carry. Then geographically I explain how they arrived, from where and for what purpose using historical documentation of population movements. To close I add a final paragraph stating that most Vlachs today reside in the Greek Pindos mountain range with an estimated figure of 700 000 traditional Vlach whi still speak the Vlach language spoken in and developed in Moldovlachia.

The theory can never be beyond criticism and needs to comply with statistical validity and reliability protocols.

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I agre with everything you said. But if you to believe that "Most of the time subclades are introduced during prehistoric times, this can be evidenced by levels of G throughout many countries at very low levels. Only in rare cases such as Moldova where the surrounding genetic composition is strikingly different can we use the verifiable and recent population movements to build a tentative case for the introduction of those unique markers not otherwise found in the broader region in similar quantities or with the same structure (genetic correlations). " is true , why would you claim that I2a2-Din is Illyrian when Greeks and Albanians -old popultions have less I2a2 then Serbs and Croats-newcomers , also Mesapi population of southern Italy has no I2a2 and they are Illyrians that crossed Adriatic see. What we do know with some amount of confidence is that current I2a-Din is only about 2500 years old, that it has expanded a lot, and that it has a center of diversity that seems to be north of the Balkans ,its spread showing it is grouped wich indicate there was resettling in near future , while older haplogroups - E1b1b1 , G2a and mythohondrial are more evenly spreaded all over Europe..And also if I2a2 is Peleolitic old population would make more then 80% of today Serbs which is imposible - Hunic and Avaro-Slavic invasions , litle ice age and plague that killed 30% of empire population during Justinian rule. Do you atleast alow probability that I2a2 -Din settled with Croats ( and Serbs , but this tread is about Croats ).
 
Bodin said:
why would you claim that I2a2-Din is Illyrian when Greeks and Albanians -old popultions have less I2a2 then Serbs and Croats-newcomers
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I agree, I did not suggest that I2a is Illyrian, if anything Illyrian genetic structure would have an admixture of older Balkan haplogroups with possibly a little bit more E-V13.
 
Dorianfinder said:
I agree, I did not suggest that I2a is Illyrian, if anything Illyrian genetic structure would have an admixture of older Balkan haplogroups with possibly a little bit more E-V13.
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Than we agree . Thanks for answering
 
iapodos said:
Croats have high percent of I2a2 Dinaric haplogroup, but only in southern parts of Dalmatia and in Herzegovina region.
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I have to correct you in this, it's true that Dalmatia and Herzegovina have hight amount of I2a2 HG, the highest... but also latest research in croatian capital Zagreb showed that 60% of population in Zagreb have I2a2 as dominant. :)
 
iapodos said:
New people (mostly I2a2 Dinaric ) came from region of Herzegovina and Montenegro and settled in Dalmatia, and hose were not ethnically Croats, they adopted Croatian name later. They simply called themselves Slavs, like it was in Dubrovnik and very often Serbs.
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Unbeliveble propaganda... This is true that Dubrovnik people called themselfs only dubrovnik people and slavs, but this one of your propaganda's that people who migrated to Dalmatia during Ottoman occupation of Bosnia called themselfs only SLAVS is such a lie, they called themselfs as Croats those who were Catholics, due to a fact that in Bosnia before Ottoman occupation of Bosnia, Croats made same number of people and even higher than Serbians in Bosnia... I don't know have anyone noticed what are you trying to do here, you are trying to connect I2a2 HG in Balkan strictly to Serbians, and that my friend is not genetic, that's called propaganda and nationalism, even racism.

No matter what you say, the fact remains, today Croatia have higher percentage of I2a2 than Serbs, I'm not saying it's "our" HG, I'm saying only a fact... Your tryings to identify haplogroups with nationalism cannot have any place in serious genetic disccutions, because genetic is one thing and nations and ethnics are another.
 
Dale Cooper said:
Unbeliveble propaganda... This is true that Dubrovnik people called themselfs only dubrovnik people and slavs, but this one of your propaganda's that people who migrated to Dalmatia during Ottoman occupation of Bosnia called themselfs only SLAVS is such a lie, they called themselfs as Croats those who were Catholics, due to a fact that in Bosnia before Ottoman occupation of Bosnia, Croats made same number of people and even higher than Serbians in Bosnia... I don't know have anyone noticed what are you trying to do here, you are trying to connect I2a2 HG in Balkan strictly to Serbians, and that my friend is not genetic, that's called propaganda and nationalism, even racism.

No matter what you say, the fact remains, today Croatia have higher percentage of I2a2 than Serbs, I'm not saying it's "our" HG, I'm saying only a fact... Your tryings to identify haplogroups with nationalism cannot have any place in serious genetic disccutions, because genetic is one thing and nations and ethnics are another.
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Dubrovnik people ?...what is that...... do you know your history?.
it was called ragusa and the people where illyrians
Ragusa in those early medieval centuries had a population of Latinized Illyrians, who spoke their own romance Dalmatian language and was an island[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ragusa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubrovnik

IIRC, Ragusa was changed to dubrovik in 1918
 
zanipolo said:
Dubrovnik people ?...what is that...... do you know your history?.
it was called ragusa and the people where illyrians
Ragusa in those early medieval centuries had a population of Latinized Illyrians, who spoke their own romance Dalmatian language and was an island[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ragusa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubrovnik

IIRC, Ragusa was changed to dubrovik in 1918
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HAHAHA, "Latinized Illyrians", oh boy... you would be a good Roman if you only lived in their time, because by your terms, everyone is that in which roman province he lived (in some particular roman province, in this case Illyricum), means that everyone from Histria to Epirus were Illyrians only because there is a roman province Illyricum, Jesus Christ...

Yes I know my history, and yes I know Dubrovnik was called Ragusa, and yes dubrovnik people called themselfs as dubrovčani in times of dubrovnik republic, but as you know, you don't know croatian so you cannot translate "dubrovčani" in exact terms what it means, so I've wroted "dubrovnik people"... to make you analogy, "dubrovčani" would mean somethin like when you say for people living in today New York as: "new yorkers".

And plz, leave a wiki when it comes about Dalmatian-latin language, ofcourse that language is latin origin, died 1898 with last speaker Udaina on croatian island KRK, but first of all, you don't know about ethnology of people in Dalmatia in last 2000 years or terms for a lot of them, all you know is qoute some high school terms as: "Illyrians", "Latinized Illyrians" and maybe something about Dalmatian latin language evolved from Latin, that's all, but if I would ask you that you say somethin to me about term Vlachs in Dalmatia and what brought that term in the first place what would you say? You would search a google for Vlachs in Romanian Wallachia or in Serbia and you would come here with answers...

Jesus...
 
Next, why do you start history from the Roman period, did not ancient historians say the people where illyrians?
yes, illyrians where from epirus to the danube in the bronze age

Yes I know my history, and yes I know Dubrovnik was called Ragusa, and yes dubrovnik people called themselfs as dubrovčani in times of dubrovnik republic, but as you know, you don't know croatian so you cannot translate "dubrovčani" in exact terms what it means, so I've wroted "dubrovnik people"... to make you analogy, "dubrovčani" would mean somethin like when you say for people living in today New York as: "new yorkers".
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your using modern terminology and you are discussing medieval times. Do you see me call the etruscan italians or the Romans italians or cimbri danish people. Stop trying to confuse people and use the names of the people at the times in question.

And plz, leave a wiki when it comes about Dalmatian-latin language, ofcourse that language is latin origin, died 1898 with last speaker Udaina on croatian island KRK, but first of all, you don't know about ethnology of people in Dalmatia in last 2000 years or terms for a lot of them, all you know is qoute some high school terms as: "Illyrians", "Latinized Illyrians" and maybe something about Dalmatian latin language evolved from Latin, that's all, but if I would ask you that you say somethin to me about term Vlachs in Dalmatia and what brought that term in the first place what would you say? You would search a google for Vlachs in Romanian Wallachia or in Serbia and you would come here with answers...

Jesus...
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Yes that language died in 1898 so you answered your own question, so In the medieval times there where no dubroviks/ians

You do know about Desislava , in 1189 as the last ruler of Zeta sought refuge amongst the ragusans fleeing from Nemanja as he acquired Hum ( zuhumlje).
You do know that ragusa was a norman vassal state in 1186 and that the normans aided the ragusans against Nemanja. Nemanja signed the peace treaty on 27 September 1186. As Nemanja stated in the treaty, Ragusa, in the lands of Lord King William, the Norman ruler of Sicily ..........I do not follow wiki unless I can back it up with other non-wiki information

Enlighten me with some links. I will be waiting
 
@Zanipolo, I really don't want to continue this "debate" over "nothing", this was a subject about Croatians and still is, and I don't want to use term Illyrians for any autohtone pre-roman tribes northern of today Montenegro, and I'm not the only with this opinion when it comes about term "Illyrians". Term Illyrians is to general term and often use in general discussion and this is not thread about Illyrians...

When it comes about this thread, in simple terms of words, today Croatians are, by genetic, half slavs and half autohtone people of this area, that's it... slavs by HG R1a (because it's common in most of slavic nations) and autohtone by I2a2, and can you tell me, if we know, and we know, that I2a2 was on this area long time before Croats ever came here and mixed with people from whom we (croats) adopted this HG I2a2, so we can assume that "your Illyrians" northern from today Montenegro were carriers of that same I2a2 haplogroup, how can it be that today Albanians have less than 10% of that same HG? explain that to me?
 
Dale Cooper said:
@Zanipolo, I really don't want to continue this "debate" over "nothing", this was a subject about Croatians and still is, and I don't want to use term Illyrians for any autohtone pre-roman tribes northern of today Montenegro, and I'm not the only with this opinion when it comes about term "Illyrians". Term Illyrians is to general term and often use in general discussion and this is not thread about Illyrians...

When it comes about this thread, in simple terms of words, today Croatians are, by genetic, half slavs and half autohtone people of this area, that's it... slavs by HG R1a (because it's common in most of slavic nations) and autohtone by I2a2, and can you tell me, if we know, and we know, that I2a2 was on this area long time before Croats ever came here and mixed with people from whom we (croats) adopted this HG I2a2, so we can assume that "your Illyrians" northern from today Montenegro were carriers of that same I2a2 haplogroup, how can it be that today Albanians have less than 10% of that same HG? explain that to me?
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Because ancient historians say the "albanians" where Molossians or Epirotes and what you say are Albanians migrated into Epirote lands. In ancient times North of epirote lands where illyrians, be them dalmatian, liburnian, pannonian etc etc.
So, albanians today want to be classified illyrian , but they do not have the genetics to be illyrians.
I do agree that croatians have an illyrian mix, but tell me where craots are from ...............some croats say they are goths , some say they came from iranian tribes.

I just hope you do not believe that propaganda book ...Srbi..narod najstariji by Olga Lukovic-Pjanovic
 
zanipolo said:
Because ancient historians say the "albanians" where Molossians or Epirotes and what you say are Albanians migrated into Epirote lands. In ancient times North of epirote lands where illyrians, be them dalmatian, liburnian, pannonian etc etc.
So, albanians today want to be classified illyrian , but they do not have the genetics to be illyrians.
I do agree that croatians have an illyrian mix, but tell me where craots are from ...............some croats say they are goths , some say they came from iranian tribes.

I just hope you do not believe that propaganda book ...Srbi..narod najstariji by Olga Lukovic-Pjanovic
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I don't belive in propaganda's :) I just told to you about what Croats are by genetic, now I will tell you what are Croats by ethno origin... one theory is that Croats are just one of the slavic tribes migrating from eastern Europe trough central and finally coming to today Croatia where they mixing themselfs with autohtone people, romanized ex-roman empire citizens...This theory is most adopted today in almost every serious archeological or history universities in Europe.

Another theory is that Croats were one of the Sarmatian tribes, and that name Croat is deriving from term Sarmat, now... I'm speaking here about Sarmatians, not about some general Persian-Iranic people from Asia, but about Sarmatians as european "branch" of Scyhtians. Even if this second theory is true, Croats when they came to present day Croatia in 7th century were totally slavicized tribe, and Goth "theory" about Croats is nothin more but a lie and propaganda, Croats have nothing to do with Goths, maybe some slight genetical influence from Goths but nothin worth mentioning...

It's enough to say that when Goths were rulling present day Croatia from Italy (OstroGoths State) in 5th and early 6th century, were never a majority in area of today croatia, only a rulling cast, evidences from that we have in Archeology, from some sites like cemetaries from that period where we can see for example on cemetary knin-greblje in today Croatia (Dalmatia) from 5th and 6th century, that from 200 graves, only 3 are ostrogothic and 197 are autohtone dalmatian from romanized people.

"Gothic theory" about Croatians is rejected theory for a long time in any serious archeological or history circles..., the official thesis about Croats today adopted in majority of european universities is this: Croats were a slavic tribe who in 7th century came to present day Croatia and mixed themselfs with ex-roman citizens of this area, pre-croatian population, because of that, Croats have today dominant HG I2a2 and not R1a, even though R1a is second dominant HG in Croatians, so you can say that today Croats are in fact in majority of cases that autohtone people before original Croats even came to this area in 7th century, I hope you understand what I want to say... :)

About that books "srbi ... narod najstariji", well... I don't have anything to say about that except that I don't belive in science fiction :D
 
so my believes are correct when I say that Bosnians Croatians and Serbs are the same people-nation divided by religion and politics?

I exclude dalmatians and some Monte-Negrins
 
Yetos said:
so my believes are correct when I say that Bosnians Croatians and Serbs are the same people-nation divided by religion and politics?

I exclude dalmatians and some Monte-Negrins
Click to expand...

No, Croats and Serbs are different nations, pay attention to word nation, but Croats and Serbs are from same origin, but two different tribes, very similar...but today have different states, just like Norge and Swedish people :)

Anyway...I'm dalmatian Croatian :)
 
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