J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

TaktikatEMalet said:
Until we get samples from illyria proper we will keep going around in circles in regards to the lines they carried - we need samples from bosnia-albania region
The j2b l283 found in slovenia was heavily mixed with celtic - this is why a theory of j2b l283 being of italo celtic/tumulus spread still remains, it keeps getting found among that part of the world including etruscans and daunians (ancient italy)
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you do realise that the term Illyria proper refers to the modern country of Montenegro and the only tribe in modern Albania was wiped out and became non existance in 314BC by the macedonian invasion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyr..._Dicti_aka_Illyrians_Proper_aka_Docleatae.svg
 
torzio said:
Does not matter about "proper".... facts are facts............the fact is the celts entered Noricum 200 years earlier and it is known as the first phase .............clearly , this does not favour some scholars because it puts their "facts" in doubt.
I am amazed how the truth is bent by these scholars to suit their needs
maybe you should read, for the Noricum
THE ORIGIN OF THE CELTS IN THE LIGHT OF LINGUISTIC GEOGRAPHY*
H. Wagner
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Noricum is big, depends on the exact phase and region in question. Whether Fr?g and Kalenderberg were actually Celtic speaking is unknown, I just doubt they were Illyrians like the Unterkrainische Gruppe and stated that they had close ties to Basarabi/Daco-Thracians. The Sulmtal-Gruppe is harder to grasp for me atm, seems to have influences from both sides (Urnfield and Tumulus).
When and how exactly Noricum was Celticised is disputed.
 
Riverman said:
Noricum is big, depends on the exact phase and region in question. Whether Fr�g and Kalenderberg were actually Celtic speaking is unknown, I just doubt they were Illyrians like the Unterkrainische Gruppe and stated that they had close ties to Basarabi/Daco-Thracians. The Sulmtal-Gruppe is harder to grasp for me atm, seems to have influences from both sides (Urnfield and Tumulus).
When and how exactly Noricum was Celticised is disputed.
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If your phase 2 of 800BC is an indication of the full celtiinastion of Noricum then I cannot dispute this, this seems factual , especially knowing that the Celts tried the same thing to the Venetic people ......but failed, as the Venetic resisted and really only took on celtic dress and basically that is all.

BTW, Celts, seemed to also have also failed in celtinizing the Rhaetic
 
Riverman said:
At this point I think its more likely to find J-L283 in Cetina than E-V13, which I never thought of being that likely. Cetina being essentially "Bell Beakerised" Neolithics. That's a possible pathway into the networks of later Tumulus culture, which were of Southern Bell Beakers too.
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Cetina culture on the Dalmatian coast came out of modern Hungaria area .....most likely some type of Proto-Pannonian
 
Riverman said:
Noricum is big, depends on the exact phase and region in question. Whether Fr�g and Kalenderberg were actually Celtic speaking is unknown, I just doubt they were Illyrians like the Unterkrainische Gruppe and stated that they had close ties to Basarabi/Daco-Thracians. The Sulmtal-Gruppe is harder to grasp for me atm, seems to have influences from both sides (Urnfield and Tumulus).
When and how exactly Noricum was Celticised is disputed.
Click to expand...


Besarabi went like this map reference below

 
torzio said:
If your phase 2 of 800BC is an indication of the full celtiinastion of Noricum then I cannot dispute this, this seems factual , especially knowing that the Celts tried the same thing to the Venetic people ......but failed, as the Venetic resisted and really only took on celtic dress and basically that is all.
BTW, Celts, seemed to also have also failed in celtinizing the Rhaetic
Click to expand...

We don't know the status of what later became Noricum before La Tene. There are different groups of people, of which some could or could not be Celtic speaking, but culturally they are quite different, like Fr?g-Kalenderberg and Unterkrainische Gruppe respectively. I doubt they were all Celts during Hallstatt, but some say so, others disagree, nobody can really know. Ancient DNA might help in this respect too.

The case of the Ligurians is curious, because they being obviously connected to Eastern Urnfielders (have Channelled Ware related elements, in moderns high, but old E-V13) and Eastern Hallstatt, but speak another language. Unfortunately, like so often, the language being poorly attested. The Lepontic Celts might have been present earlier or later, again a matter of debate, having Eastern influences too. So it seems in any case that in the very Early Iron Age not all were Celts, but how far they reached at the height of Hallstatt being disputed. Simple as that.
 
torzio said:
you do realise that the term Illyria proper refers to the modern country of Montenegro and the only tribe in modern Albania was wiped out and became non existance in 314BC by the macedonian invasion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyr..._Dicti_aka_Illyrians_Proper_aka_Docleatae.svg
Click to expand...

I am not talking about illyria proper, i am talking about unmixed illyrians. Ancient croatia/slovenia is where celts pushed their culture

Yeah sure, illyrians were wiped out somehow in 314bc yet mentioned much later

"In 171 BC, the Illyrian king Gentius was allied with the Romans against the Macedonians. But in 169 BC he changed sides and allied himself with Perseus of Macedon. During the Third Illyrian War, in 168 BC, he arrested two Roman legati and destroyed the cities of Apollonia and Dyrrhachium, which were allied to Rome. He was defeated at Scodra by a Roman force under L. Anicius Gallus,[14] and in 167 BC he was brought to Rome as a captive to participate in Gallus' triumph, after which he was interned at Iguvium."
 
Riverman said:
Pure or not, we have direct evidence of Alpine-Danubian elements reaching as far as Albania. The material culture and intrusive character is obvious. However, I never claimed they were pure in any way, which is probably why they got from the Danube down more J-L283 in the first place, because these joined up in the North and expanded rapidly with their newly adopted cultural identity. The function of the Koszider horizon is imho mostly the intrusion of the Middle Danubian TC. Its the evidence for their expansion. What we see afterwards is an interconnected world of the Pannonian-Illyrians. After the expansion.
Gimbutas you quoted makes also absolutely clear that late Otomani-F�zesabony survived in the East and out of which developed Piliny, later Kyjatice and G�va too, with relations to the other Channelled Ware groups.
i) = Southern Bell Baker plus J-L283
ii) = Epi-Corded, Yamnaya and primarily Neolithic lineages, among which in any case E-V13 and J2a.
Even she wasn't sure about where to exaclty put them, she just noted their difference from the rest of the TC.
There are already too many Iron Age Illyrian finds to change that. In the upcoming samples from the British paper, R-Z2103 seems to be closer to the Pannonian group of Neolithics, especially E-V13 and J2a, more similar to late Otomani/F�zesabony, G�va-Kyjatice than the Illyrian J2b. Let's see whether they find some E-V13 and other Pannonian lineages in Mokrin-related EBA groups and how this relates to all the later layers. So far they are well-separated for the most part, which is very easy to demonstrate on PCA plots, some of which I posted already. Other related Neolithic lineages (to E-V13, R-Z2103 and J2a) seem to be H, G2 and I2 rather. No J2b was in these clusters. Not even close to the F�zesabondy-G�va-Kyjatice. Kyjatice is the direct descendent of Piliny and Piliny has influence from F�zesabony/late Otomani with Epi-Corded intrusive elements.
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Which iron age illyrians? Thracians and illyrians emerged from a close region and it is possible that they carried similar bronze age lines before expanding. Z2103 has already been found in early medieval serbia. Its only a matter of time before we find some z2103 in bronze age balkans
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
Which iron age illyrians? Thracians and illyrians emerged from a close region and it is possible that they carried similar bronze age lines. Z2103 has been found in early medieval serbia. Its only a matter of time before we find some z2103 in bronze age balkans
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Sure, but they were different in origin and mixed later.

I found something very interesting, almost funny about the Unterkrainische Gruppe:
Die Sitte Prunkgr?ber zu errichten beginnt im Osthallstattkreis um circa 800 v. Chr.[5] und damit wesentlich fr?her als in der Westhallstattkultur. Dieser fr?he Beginn hatte an urnenfelderzeitliche Traditionen angelehnte Beigaben und die h?ufig durchgef?hrte Sitte der Brandbestattung zur Folge. Einzig die unterkrainische Kultur und K?rnten beginnt ab dem 8. Jh. K?rperbestattungen durchzuf?hren. Eine Sonderstellung besitzt die Osthallstattkultur in Slowenien, da dort die gr??te Funddichte belegt ist und sich hier die meisten Prunkgr?ber erfassen lassen.[6] In Slowenien sind Sippenh?gel charakteristisch, in denen das Zentralgrab leer bleibt und sich die Bestattungen, h?ufig sehr zahlreich, am Rand des H?gels befinden.
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https://www.grin.com/document/347043

Like mentioned earlier, the movement of the culture was from the East, to the West, with first Channelled Ware, then Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, then Basarabi-Hallstatt.

The Unterkrainer just copied the custom of elite burials, without using it for such an elite, because they had none, but rather chiefs of the clans, no higher elites in luxury and princely graves. So they made a huge tumulus, like other Hallstatt groups, but put no-body in the central part, but many members of their clans at the fringes!

This clearly shows that they adopted cultural practises from the then culturally dominant Northern groups, just like the Thraco-Cimmerian horseman gear, but they just copied it superficially, like to "stay in the game", without really taking up all the ideas and societal elements. So they could show other tribes: "We got big tumuli too."

Typically, the more Basarabi-Northern Pannonian, possibly Daco-Thracian related groups preferred cremation, like mentioned before.

The Sulmtal-group was somewhat intermediate between the rather Illyrian Unterkrainische Gruppe and the more North Pannonian-Daco-Thracian influenced and Celtic oriented Fr?g and Kalenderberg groups, but clearly not that much in the Illyrian sphere any more. The Northern Croatian groups too being more Pannonian oriented, rahter than Illyrian.

J2b was found in Novo Mesto, read about it here too:
Ein Beispiel daf?r ist die Siedlung auf dem Marof bei Novo Mesto in Slowenien. Sie befindet sich auf einer Erh?hung n?rdlich ?ber dem mittelalterlichen Stadtkern, auf dem sich schon die Illyrer angesiedelt haben. Sie ist durch einen stark befestigten Wall am Siedlungsrand eingegrenzt.
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Die Grabh?gel des dazugeh?rigen Gr?berfeldes sind sehr einfach und ?rmlich, nur wenige Prunkgr?ber sind gefunden worden. Das Gr?berfeld umfasst heute insgesamt vier hallstattzeitliche Tumuli.[28] Vor der Grabung konnten noch f?nf bis sechs festgestellt werden. Diese sind klassische Sippentumuli.
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When the Celts conquered the region and destroyed the Illyrian culture, even the walls being demolished, the Celts started with cremation burials again:

Unmittelbar an der Grabh?gelnekropole schlie?t sich ein mittellat?nezeitliches Flachgr?berfeld mit Brandbestattungen an.
Click to expand...

https://www.grin.com/document/347043
 
Riverman said:
We don't know the status of what later became Noricum before La Tene. There are different groups of people, of which some could or could not be Celtic speaking, but culturally they are quite different, like Fr�g-Kalenderberg and Unterkrainische Gruppe respectively. I doubt they were all Celts during Hallstatt, but some say so, others disagree, nobody can really know. Ancient DNA might help in this respect too.

The case of the Ligurians is curious, because they being obviously connected to Eastern Urnfielders (have Channelled Ware related elements, in moderns high, but old E-V13) and Eastern Hallstatt, but speak another language. Unfortunately, like so often, the language being poorly attested. The Lepontic Celts might have been present earlier or later, again a matter of debate, having Eastern influences too. So it seems in any case that in the very Early Iron Age not all were Celts, but how far they reached at the height of Hallstatt being disputed. Simple as that.
Click to expand...

The curious Ligurians was due to some scholars stating that the Celtic Taurisci confederation of Tribes went from northern Ligurian lands to Noricum mixing with the Illyrian Nori tribe
we also have the Pannonians in the south-east of Carniola, the Iapydes, an Illyrian tribe,( similar time as moving to foggia Italy as the Daunians ) in the south-west, and the Carni, a Venetic tribe.
Before celts went into Noricum, the land was inhabited by Illyrians, Pannonians and Venetic tribes ............as you say Noricum was big , but only if you look at it at the time of a Roman province
 
Roman histroian Appian notes that the Celts, Illyrians, and Galatians
descend from the same peoples (via three sons of Polyphemus). One of the Illyrian Celtic
tribes was the Scordisci (who during his day were settled in Pannonia – Hungary).
Another Illyrian tribe in the 3rd Century BC was the Autarienses who were overtaken with
destruction by the vengence of Apollo. Having joined Molostimus and the Celtic people
called Cimbri in an expedition against the temple of Delphi, the greater part of them
were destroyed by storm, hurricane, and lightening before the sacrilege was committed
(p. 4).
 
torzio said:
Roman histroian Appian notes that the Celts, Illyrians, and Galatians
descend from the same peoples (via three sons of Polyphemus). One of the Illyrian Celtic
tribes was the Scordisci (who during his day were settled in Pannonia – Hungary).
Another Illyrian tribe in the 3rd Century BC was the Autarienses who were overtaken with
destruction by the vengence of Apollo. Having joined Molostimus and the Celtic people
called Cimbri in an expedition against the temple of Delphi, the greater part of them
were destroyed by storm, hurricane, and lightening before the sacrilege was committed
(p. 4).
Click to expand...

The Scordisci were rather a raiding party of various tribal various, mostly Celts, which set themselves on top of local poplations in the Balkans to found their new political structure. In many regions of the Balkans the real Celtic influence was rather small, but it depends. Slovenia e.g. was more affected.
 
Riverman said:
Sure, but they were different in origin and mixed later.
I found something very interesting, almost funny about the Unterkrainische Gruppe:
https://www.grin.com/document/347043
Like mentioned earlier, the movement of the culture was from the East, to the West, with first Channelled Ware, then Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, then Basarabi-Hallstatt.
The Unterkrainer just copied the custom of elite burials, without using it for such an elite, because they had none, but rather chiefs of the clans, no higher elites in luxury and princely graves. So they made a huge tumulus, like other Hallstatt groups, but put no-body in the central part, but many members of their clans at the fringes!
This clearly shows that they adopted cultural practises from the then culturally dominant Northern groups, just like the Thraco-Cimmerian horseman gear, but they just copied it superficially, like to "stay in the game", without really taking up all the ideas and societal elements. So they could show other tribes: "We got big tumuli too."
Typically, the more Basarabi-Northern Pannonian, possibly Daco-Thracian related groups preferred cremation, like mentioned before.
The Sulmtal-group was somewhat intermediate between the rather Illyrian Unterkrainische Gruppe and the more North Pannonian-Daco-Thracian influenced and Celtic oriented Fr�g and Kalenderberg groups, but clearly not that much in the Illyrian sphere any more. The Northern Croatian groups too being more Pannonian oriented, rahter than Illyrian.
J2b was found in Novo Mesto, read about it here too:
When the Celts conquered the region and destroyed the Illyrian culture, even the walls being demolished, the Celts started with cremation burials again:
https://www.grin.com/document/347043
Click to expand...

Novo mesto wasnt an illyrian hub though as it is in slovenia - novo mesto would have been overrun by celts since tumulus culture and definitely during urnfield. It was already destroyed and conquered by the celts like you mentioned by the iron age. Sure the j2b found there may be surviving illyrians but best way figure out which lines the illyrians belonged to is to find adna further south instead of beyond their historical border

If you look at this map here, there is a vast region below urnfield which i think the illyrians occupied as well as ancient greeks further south. To the east you also would have thracians, where exactly they sat during this period is unclear as a few hundred years later the daco thracians occupied some of the gava region that was under urnfield influence.

Map1000BC_Cultures01_big.jpg

With that map we can propose a few things -

1. Illyrians are unlikely to be related to urnfield genetically/culturally
2. Some thracians or maybe daco thracians should have had closer relation with urnfield genetically/culturally
3. Middle danubian groups are unlikely to be related to illyrians
 
Novo Mesto was Illyrian related. Their whole customs and burial rite prove it.

Illyrian tribes did adopt Urnfield styles and cremation, but only some tribes, mainly in Pannonia, while the later core did not.
MIddle Danubian TC founded Illyrians or were an essential part to it, Middle Danubian Urnfielders are the direct successors, while the expansive and more Balkan influenced core groups were sticking to the old ways.

The map shows the situation before the expansion, you can see the next map with the expansive arrows.
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
Which iron age illyrians? Thracians and illyrians emerged from a close region and it is possible that they carried similar bronze age lines before expanding. Z2103 has already been found in early medieval serbia. Its only a matter of time before we find some z2103 in bronze age balkans
Click to expand...

Bro what are you even talking about?

From the other posts you mentioned we have no BA/IA L283 in the Balkans when in the last year more than 20 samples of L283 have popper up on both sides of the Adriatic.

Then you mentioned the lack of L283 in Bosnia and Montenegro as a fact L283 has no connection to Illyrians, when in Albania, Serbia and Croatia L283 is found since BA. Meanwhile we have no samples from BA/IA Montenegro/Bosnia, not just L283, not many samples of anything at all. So the fact that there is no L283 from Bosnia/Montenegro from BA/IA doesnt mean anything, since there is a drought of samples of any haplogroup from that timeframe.

Matter of time before we find z2103? Bro L283 and z2103 were found together at Maros dated 4kybp... Bronze age. with an autosomal admixture of 30+ Steppe and 50+ Tollense like components.

Like if me and other members had to correct you once it would be fine. But every couple of months you go on a tangent on these same points, and it gets really repetitive. If BA/IA samples from Etruria/Daunia(who you claim to be Italics when it facts the long held lingusitic consensus was just proved with ancient DNA that they were likely related to Illyrians)/Dalmatia/Maros(Pannonia)/rumored North Albania/Danubian Limes/Slovenia/Croatia again are not enough to convince you, and you still think L283 is undersampled when in fact it is becoming one of the more sampled haplogroups in the region I do not know what will.

Edit:

I will do you the same favor someone did me when I first started frequenting this forum and give you an advice. "Don't be like all the people before you who talked all sorts of crazy theories for years and have yet to test". Test your YDNA.
 
Riverman said:
Novo Mesto was Illyrian related. Their whole customs and burial rite prove it.
Illyrian tribes did adopt Urnfield styles and cremation, but only some tribes, mainly in Pannonia, while the later core did not.
MIddle Danubian TC founded Illyrians or were an essential part to it, Middle Danubian Urnfielders are the direct successors, while the expansive and more Balkan influenced core groups were sticking to the old ways.
The map shows the situation before the expansion, you can see the next map with the expansive arrows.
Click to expand...


I dont know, looking at the urnfield map - it looks quite clear to me where the illyrians were as it doesnt differ too much with post urnfield - why did urnfield allow for such mass of land in western balkans to go amiss, there was surely an opposing force in that region at the time.


Do you suggest that the paleobalkanic groups in south europe were replaced by urnfield? If you claim that illyrians, thracians etc are direct descendents of urnfield then their y dna should be similar. Even without an urnfield origin, since they are both bronze age paleobalkanic groups as the map suggests their y dna again could have initially come from a similar middle bronze age source


Anyway, i havent been able to find out much on novo mesto but i ran into this from 500bc - it is a depiction of an animal (gazelle?) that has nothing to do with slovenia and I have no idea why it was found there
EvWLNyiXEAEQsoa.jpg

Edit: maybe they are goats? Definitely look more like gazelles to me
 
Riverman said:
The Scordisci were rather a raiding party of various tribal various, mostly Celts, which set themselves on top of local poplations in the Balkans to found their new political structure. In many regions of the Balkans the real Celtic influence was rather small, but it depends. Slovenia e.g. was more affected.
Click to expand...

Scordisci occurred due to the failed invasion of the celts against Greece...the remnants settled in modern Serbia creating these scordisci .......they eventually mixed with thracian and dardanian people
 
Riverman said:
Novo Mesto was Illyrian related. Their whole customs and burial rite prove it.

Illyrian tribes did adopt Urnfield styles and cremation, but only some tribes, mainly in Pannonia, while the later core did not.
MIddle Danubian TC founded Illyrians or were an essential part to it, Middle Danubian Urnfielders are the direct successors, while the expansive and more Balkan influenced core groups were sticking to the old ways.

The map shows the situation before the expansion, you can see the next map with the expansive arrows.
Click to expand...


we even have illyrians adopting the celtic tattooing system ..............even the illyrians that moved to Apulia italy, the Daunians
 
Archetype0ne said:
Bro what are you even talking about?
From the other posts you mentioned we have no BA/IA L283 in the Balkans when in the last year more than 20 samples of L283 have popper up on both sides of the Adriatic.
Then you mentioned the lack of L283 in Bosnia and Montenegro as a fact L283 has no connection to Illyrians, when in Albania, Serbia and Croatia L283 is found since BA. Meanwhile we have no samples from BA/IA Montenegro/Bosnia, not just L283, not many samples of anything at all. So the fact that there is no L283 from Bosnia/Montenegro from BA/IA doesnt mean anything, since there is a drought of samples of any haplogroup from that timeframe.
Matter of time before we find z2103? Bro L283 and z2103 were found together at Maros dated 4kybp... Bronze age. with an autosomal admixture of 30+ Steppe and 50+ Tollense like components.
Like if me and other members had to correct you once it would be fine. But every couple of months you go on a tangent on these same points, and it gets really repetitive. If BA/IA samples from Etruria/Daunia(who you claim to be Italics when it facts the long held lingusitic consensus was just proved with ancient DNA that they were likely related to Illyrians)/Dalmatia/Maros(Pannonia)/rumored North Albania/Danubian Limes/Slovenia/Croatia again are not enough to convince you, and you still think L283 is undersampled when in fact it is becoming one of the more sampled haplogroups in the region I do not know what will.
Edit:
I will do you the same favor someone did me when I first started frequenting this forum and give you an advice. "Don't be like all the people before you who talked all sorts of crazy theories for years and have yet to test". Test your YDNA.
Click to expand...

Please give me a full list of ancient j2b l283, would be great if there was a website to keep track of it - do we have the year on the albanian sample yet?

The j2b l283 found in slovenia was unsurprisingly heavily mixed with celts as that was a celtic region. Other j2b l283 found in italy do not prove much in regards to illyrians, there was a lot of different natives in italy (etruscans etc) and as we know italo/celtic urnfielders overran the region previously

Are you of the opinion that illyrians were direct descendents of urnfield?
 
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