J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

He needs to hear it from one of these ancient J2b-L283 samples screaming "I'm Illyrian" :LOL:

I can understand a foreigner questioning whether J2b-L283 has anything to do with the Illyrians, but an Albanian, especially when the evidence is overwhelmingly pointing to it.
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
Please give me a full list of ancient j2b l283, would be great if there was a website to keep track of it - do we have the year on the albanian sample yet?
The j2b l283 found in slovenia was unsurprisingly heavily mixed with celts as that was a celtic region. Other j2b l283 found in italy do not prove much in regards to illyrians, there was a lot of different natives in italy (etruscans etc) and as we know italo/celtic urnfielders overran the region previously
Are you of the opinion that illyrians were direct descendents of urnfield?
Click to expand...

Trojet is working on the excel last I checked.
About cultures I have no clue at all. Reading Wilkes "The Illyrians" as we speak, but barely have time to get through it.
Thing is Celts as a ethnic affiliation appear much later in the area from what I understand, whereas Illyrians might predate them in that region by quite a bit. And also Slovenia and Croatia from what I gather were never Celtic cores.

iu

iu

iu


In contrast:

"A distinguishing feature of the Bronze Age is the practice of raising mounds ot soil or stone above the burials ..I individuals. This was accompanied by an elaborate ritual, Indicated by encircling rings of stones and the deposition of precious objects as grave goods, including battle axes and daggers. In Albania the first metal-using culture (Chalcolithic, 2600—2100 bc) is represented in the first and second levels at Maliq in the Korce basin (see figure 3). The early houses were erected on oak piles, then later ones directly on the ground with walls of bundled reeds. Implements were of flint, polished gtonc, bone, horn and clay (weights for fishing nets) and included also copper axes, spearheads, needles and fish-hooks. There are links with other Balkan sites of this period, notably Buhanj in southern Serbia and Krivodol in Bulgaria, as well as some correspondences with Macedonian sites. Albanian irchaeologists stress the essentially local character of this cul- ture, where the earlier traditions have been detected as per- suing even in newer phases that have been associated with a new immigrant ruling class. 1 "This rather tidy portrayal of a succession of early farming cultures using ground and flaked stone tools and then some largely imported metal implements comes to an end with the middle phase of the Bronze Age (1 600/1. 500-c. 1300 bc). The change is signified by the manifest ability of the people some identify as 'proto-Illyrians' to exploit the rich mineral deposits of Bosnia and Slovenia, notably copper, tin and gold."

https://archive.org/details/15826619JohnWilkesTheIllyrians/page/n25/mode/2up

Now I am no expert. But certainly the timeline here first all three clades, J2b2-L283, R1b-Z2103 and E-V13.
I have yet to finish the book, but the Neolithic/BA novelty in metalworking and mounds seems to be a Northern Influence, but it also seems to have gotten to the southern Illyrian frontiers quite early by 2500BC.

Cant recall who mentioned the Maliq excavations in Korce some years ago. But from what I have read it consists of mounds.
Would be ideal if some Albanian archeologists/geneticists looking to make a name would go and test the DNA there.
But maybe that is the site from South Albania Rrenjet was mentioning who knows?
 
Trojet said:
He needs to hear it from one of these ancient J2b-L283 samples screaming "I'm Illyrian" :LOL:

I can understand a foreigner questioning whether J2b-L283 has anything to do with the Illyrians, but an Albanian, especially when the evidence is overwhelmingly pointing to it.

Anywho, can't wait wait until it pops in ancient Bosnia/Montenegro/Albania, etc, and see what he has to say.
Click to expand...

But it hasnt overwhelmingly pointed to that yet - i also cant wait until it pops up in those regions too alongside other lines

J2b l283 is almost non existant in bosnia and montenegro - that shouldnt be the case when these where the biggest illyrian hubs, they definitely carried other lines, not just j2b l283 (if they carried it)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
But it hasnt overwhelmingly pointed to that yet - i also cant wait until it pops up in those regions too alongside other lines
J2b l283 is almost non existant in bosnia and montenegro - that shouldnt be the case when these where the biggest illyrian hubs, they definitely carried other lines, not just j2b l283 (if they carried it)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/
Click to expand...

You should know by now that modern distribution doesn't equal ancient. For example, in Bosnia one of the major "Slavic" haplogroups makes up around 50% of all male lines. Besides, as we all know, there is already a Bronze Age J2b-L283 sample in Dalmatia, but apparently that's not enough for you.

Conversely, the main reason why it peaks in Northern Albania is because the region has the lowest Slavic Y-DNA lines around..

EDIT: I don't think anyone claimed Illyrians only carried J2b-L283.
 
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ic-burial-mounds-in-South-Western-Balkans.pdf

I am sure Riverman and Hawk will apreciate the above link and read^ very fascinating isnt it?

k7lZnN6.png


Now imagine getting samples from 13, 17, 33-41 tested... How many questions that would answer regarding three major political entities/ ethnicities in the area

Apollonia

Albanopolis

Macedon

I am not mentioning the Northern red dots, cause I have a feeling I know what samples might be found there.
 
Archetype0ne said:
Trojet is working on the excel last I checked.
About cultures I have no clue at all. Reading Wilkes "The Illyrians" as we speak, but barely have time to get through it.
Thing is Celts as a ethnic affiliation appear much later in the area from what I understand, whereas Illyrians might predate them in that region by quite a bit. And also Slovenia and Croatia from what I gather were never Celtic cores.

iu

iu

iu


In contrast:

"A distinguishing feature of the Bronze Age is the practice of raising mounds ot soil or stone above the burials ..I individuals. This was accompanied by an elaborate ritual, Indicated by encircling rings of stones and the deposition of precious objects as grave goods, including battle axes and daggers. In Albania the first metal-using culture (Chalcolithic, 2600—2100 bc) is represented in the first and second levels at Maliq in the Korce basin (see figure 3). The early houses were erected on oak piles, then later ones directly on the ground with walls of bundled reeds. Implements were of flint, polished gtonc, bone, horn and clay (weights for fishing nets) and included also copper axes, spearheads, needles and fish-hooks. There are links with other Balkan sites of this period, notably Buhanj in southern Serbia and Krivodol in Bulgaria, as well as some correspondences with Macedonian sites. Albanian irchaeologists stress the essentially local character of this cul- ture, where the earlier traditions have been detected as per- suing even in newer phases that have been associated with a new immigrant ruling class. 1 "This rather tidy portrayal of a succession of early farming cultures using ground and flaked stone tools and then some largely imported metal implements comes to an end with the middle phase of the Bronze Age (1 600/1. 500-c. 1300 bc). The change is signified by the manifest ability of the people some identify as 'proto-Illyrians' to exploit the rich mineral deposits of Bosnia and Slovenia, notably copper, tin and gold."

https://archive.org/details/15826619JohnWilkesTheIllyrians/page/n25/mode/2up

Now I am no expert. But certainly the timeline here first all three clades, J2b2-L283, R1b-Z2103 and E-V13.
I have yet to finish the book, but the Neolithic/BA novelty in metalworking and mounds seems to be a Northern Influence, but it also seems to have gotten to the southern Illyrian frontiers quite early by 2500BC.

Cant recall who mentioned the Maliq excavations in Korce some years ago. But from what I have read it consists of mounds.
Would be ideal if some Albanian archeologists/geneticists looking to make a name would go and test the DNA there.
But maybe that is the site from South Albania Rrenjet was mentioning who knows?
Click to expand...

No no no, you need to understand that celts played a big role in urnfield dating back to 1300bc. Urnfield covered all of slovenia and much of croatia, most of italy, france etc. It is easy to find out more on urnfield on the internet, or just look at the map and dates.

Urnfield evolved from tumulus culture and tumulus culture has been linked to proto italo-celts

This is why i am careful with linking anything to illyrian unless it comes from bosnia-albania region. Once we get some samples from there we can say "ah right so that j2b l283 in slovenia or in italy was an illyrian after all".
 
Trojet said:
You should know by now that modern distribution doesn't equal ancient. For example, in Bosnia one of the major "Slavic" haplogroups makes up around 50% of all male lines. Besides, as we all know, there is already a Bronze Age J2b-L283 sample in Dalmatia, but apparently that's not enough for you.
And the main reason why it peaks in Northern Albania is because the region has the lowest Slavic Y-DNA lines around..
Click to expand...

If you mean i2a din, yes it peaks in bosnia but around 40% not 50%. It doesnt explain why j2b l283 is near no existant in montenegro

Meanwhile both countries have a bit more r1b z2103 -
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2103/

And even more v13 -
https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-v13/

I am not here confirming that j2b l283 isnt an illyrian line, i am saying they carried other lines too. Dalmatia is one thing, montenegro is another - we need to start seeing results from further south

I wont give out any more theories on why j2b l283 is a lot higher in north albanians compared to others because like you said it ultimately doesnt matter in determining what are proto illyrian lines. Only ancient dna will help with that
 
Archetype0ne said:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ic-burial-mounds-in-South-Western-Balkans.pdf

I am sure Riverman and Hawk will apreciate the above link and read^ very fascinating isnt it?

k7lZnN6.png


Now imagine getting samples from 13, 17, 33-41 tested... How many questions that would answer regarding three major political entities/ ethnicities in the area

Apollonia

Albanopolis

Macedon

I am not mentioning the Northern red dots, cause I have a feeling I know what samples might be found there.
Click to expand...

I will read latter, but TaktikatEMalet is a passive-agressive troll, he just wants to warm blood, for 3-4 months he will pose existential questions for E-V13, for other 3-4 months he will switch the attention for J2b2-L283 and so on and so forth. Try to write with him in Albanian, not standard one, in dialect to see if he is even Albanian to start with.
 
Hawk said:
I will read latter, but TaktikatEMalet is a passive-agressive troll, he just wants to warm blood, for 3-4 months he will pose existential questions for E-V13, for other 3-4 months he will switch the attention for J2b2-L283 and so on and so forth. Try to write with him in Albanian, not standard one, in dialect to see if he is even Albanian to start with.
Click to expand...

Im not the one claiming a heavily celtic mixed ancient dna from slovenia is illyrian. You need to chill and wait for more adna before making rash "confirmations"

Haha and now you try to make things personal, of course i can speak albanian but there is more to it than that. Qjysherit ton qe nuk na prishen kulturen dhe e mbjaten mbiemrin e tyre jan shqiptaret e vertet, jo ata qe shiten mbiemrin dhe kulturen per fe muti.
 
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Riverman said:
At this point I think its more likely to find J-L283 in Cetina than E-V13, which I never thought of being that likely. Cetina being essentially "Bell Beakerised" Neolithics. That's a possible pathway into the networks of later Tumulus culture, which were of Southern Bell Beakers too.
Click to expand...

Well, at this point i agree, i wouldn't actually be surprised if Cetina has J2b2-L283, then we can give explanation to Nuragic J2b2-L283 finds. Because Cetina people sailed to Central Mediterranean.

As for Tumulus, Tumulus-Grave/Hugelgraberkultur came from Bavaria and crossed the Alps to Carpathian Mountains during Middle Bronze Age to cause all that turmoil and chaos, so i think the timeline you are proposing don't match.

It all really depends on how we view Illyrians, if they were largely Yamnaya then we don't need the LBA input. Early to Middle Bronze Age Belotic Bela Crkva Culture from Serbia split into two groups, one in West to form Glasinac Culture and the other in South to influence the Matt-Painted Pottery Culture forming the South Illyrians (Illyri Propri dictii) and some split-offs subsequently crossing the Adriatic and being known as Messapi, Dauni, Iapygians.

On top of all of these groups we have the Late Bronze Age Danubian Urnfield influence, this is the tricky part to check who were they in specificity, Marija Gimbutas proposed it was the Koszider hoard (Encrusted Pottery Culture influenced by Tumulus-Grave people). I guess we will find out.

Then from Central Balkans to South/West we can have the Gava/Channeled-Ware people, more influencing Dardani, Enchelei (Trebeniste Culture), Taulantii ???

Let's see.
 
Polska said:
View attachment 13020

These 2 Kovac brothers (Robert and Niko) are Bosnian Croats who are, potentially, direct descendants of some of the recently published L283 samples from the GB paper. They are on the PH1602 branch, specifically this branch : https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y86930/
Click to expand...

Wow, that's a Sea Peoples lineage probably! One branch staying in the Adriatic, the other moved to the Near East. Impressive example and I'm sure the sample from the GB paper is from Europe, because its autosomally North-Central Italian like and surely from the Northern Adriatic-Pannonia.

TaktikatEMalet said:
I dont know, looking at the urnfield map - it looks quite clear to me where the illyrians were as it doesnt differ too much with post urnfield - why did urnfield allow for such mass of land in western balkans to go amiss, there was surely an opposing force in that region at the time.
Do you suggest that the paleobalkanic groups in south europe were replaced by urnfield? If you claim that illyrians, thracians etc are direct descendents of urnfield then their y dna should be similar. Even without an urnfield origin, since they are both bronze age paleobalkanic groups as the map suggests their y dna again could have initially come from a similar middle bronze age source
Click to expand...

I'm suggesting that the Danubian-Alpine TC brought Illyrians, firmly established them in the region. When Urnfield spread, it didn't spread from those Middle Danubian-Balkan TC group, but from further North and East, it did so along the Danube. The Danubian groups largely switched to cremation, the Southern (Illyrian core) did not. They just were more conservative and sticked to the old custom, which was however fairly recently introduced in some regions by the very Middle Danubian TC invasion. Along the Danube there was a strong influence from the Carpathian, Daco-Thracian side, from the very people they did push East soon before (Kyjatice-G?va).

torzio said:
Scordisci occurred due to the failed invasion of the celts against Greece...the remnants settled in modern Serbia creating these scordisci .......they eventually mixed with thracian and dardanian people
Click to expand...

Exactly, they were among the "least Celtic of all Celts". Latenisation started in the area even before the actual Celts came, this is important to stress. So they were already half-assimilated, when these warriors came in and got in charge of things. But the population was essentially local Pannonian-Illyrian and Daco-Thracian.

Hawk said:
As for Tumulus, Tumulus-Grave/Hugelgraberkultur came from Bavaria and crossed the Alps to Carpathian Mountains during Middle Bronze Age to cause all that turmoil and chaos, so i think the timeline you are proposing don't match.

It all really depends on how we view Illyrians, if they were largely Yamnaya then we don't need the LBA input. Early to Middle Bronze Age Belotic Bela Crkva Culture from Serbia split into two groups, one in West to form Glasinac Culture and the other in South to influence the Matt-Painted Pottery Culture forming the South Illyrians (Illyri Propri dictii) and some split-offs subsequently crossing the Adriatic and being known as Messapi, Dauni, Iapygians.

On top of all of these groups we have the Late Bronze Age Danubian Urnfield influence, this is the tricky part to check who were they in specificity, Marija Gimbutas proposed it was the Koszider hoard (Encrusted Pottery Culture influenced by Tumulus-Grave people). I guess we will find out.
Click to expand...

The cultural influence is obvious, the connections too. Its however possible that it was a more local population just adopting elements, but that became extremely unlikely, because of the position of some of the J2b from past and the present British study. They made it too far to the North to be remnants of something earlier, and the tide was against anything creeping up that strongly too. So the most likely explanation is: The J-L283 guys came downwards themselves, in associated with Beaker related ancestry.

By the way, the Verteba cave sample is out, it proves that Pannonian/Epic-Corded/Beaker like elements, presumably G?va, expanded to the East with G?va-Holigrady possibly. That's now one axis of the expansion, which looks fine from F?zesabony to Kyjatice-G?va. All the E-V13 samples are on two related clines, one more BGR_EBA/IA, presumably from the South, similar to Moldovan "Scythians", the other 3 between Mokrin and F?zesabony, looking Pannonian.

The paper on Verteba cave is out, some samples show indeed increased WHG affinity.

As for the LBA individual:
Individual VERT-114, dated around the LBA, showed a genetic position close to Bell-Beaker populations in PCA and ADMIXTURE. This individual shows a higher influx of ancestry from WHG than from EHG populations f4(Mbuti, VERT-114; WHG, EHG) -0.002, Z score=-8,64), similar to the results obtained for the aggregate group of 22 Verteba individuals. qpAdm results for this individual show that a single model with a Bell_Beaker population as a single source works (Fig. 4). Many of the two-way models involve populations related to Ukraine_Globular_Amphora and to steppe populations, with approximately 60% of ancestry from the former and the rest from the latter.
Click to expand...

https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1044480/v1

I guess it will be closer to G?va and Kyjatice, probably F?zesabony, rather than Beakers, but let's see. They didn't compare with those single samples, but they used Mako too, which being not mentioned and wouldn't fit anyway, because its too WHG. The individual is a female, mtDNA T2.

Looking at which Beakers she is closest too, its clear, its going in a G?va direction:
Verteba_LBA* Poland_Southeast_BellBeaker
Verteba_LBA* Hungary_EBA_BellBeaker
Click to expand...

That's not British Beakers of course...

I would interpret all the results as mounting evidence for a local continuity of a WHG heavy Neolithic population around the Carpathians and Pannonia, which was later fusing with Epi-Corded/Beaker groups to create the North Pannonian clusters which emerged with G?va, Kyjatice and F?zesabony/late Otomani.
 
Well, to me it looks like yours/Hubans/Aspar/rafc Trypillian => E-V13 is in serious trouble after the cave Verteba paper.
 
Hawk said:
Well, to me it looks like yours/Hubans/Aspar/rafc Trypillian => E-V13 is in serious trouble after the cave Verteba paper.
Click to expand...

I was going for Lengyel for quite some time now if you read my posts from the last weeks. But E was there too, just a minority. But this could have been a Western migrant, even more so since they had connections to the Carpathian zone. Lengyel was in the Carpathians and it has proven samples with E1b1b. Even the Michelsberger samples might be closer connected to Lengyel colonisation of the Southern German-Danubian zone, rather than vice versa, though this is debatable.
But the example of Lengyel-Sopot also shows how careful we must be, because in the Southern Sopot samples which came out recently, not a single E was found! They were all closer to the Middle Danube-Balaton area:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...ll=46.983580749742856,18.115367935351514&z=10

So especially widespread cultures need more careful sampling, even more so if they being found to be quite diverse already (like Lengyel-Sopot was).
 
Wait for adna even though we have bronze age DNA from Croatia, Danuians, IA Slovenia, Timacum, upcoming Albania paper.

No one needs to wait for more samples you just have to accept reality.
 
Fustan said:
Wait for adna even though we have bronze age DNA from Croatia, Danuians, IA Slovenia, Timacum, upcoming Albania paper.
No one needs to wait for more samples you just have to accept reality.
Click to expand...

What other samples are mentioned/rumoured in the albanian paper?
 
Archetype0ne said:
Polska
PS... Budjak also known as Bessarabia ?

For reference the house of the Draculesti (Vlad Tepes, Vlad the Impaler) was an offspring of the house of Basarab.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Basarab
Click to expand...

Is this proven by direct descendant DNA testing? like the House of Lubomirski was proven to be J-L283 via a family tree direct descendent. Or is this jsut a theory based on various men of similar surname or claimed descendence?
 
Riverman said:
I was going for Lengyel for quite some time now if you read my posts from the last weeks. But E was there too, just a minority. But this could have been a Western migrant, even more so since they had connections to the Carpathian zone. Lengyel was in the Carpathians and it has proven samples with E1b1b. Even the Michelsberger samples might be closer connected to Lengyel colonisation of the Southern German-Danubian zone, rather than vice versa, though this is debatable.
But the example of Lengyel-Sopot also shows how careful we must be, because in the Southern Sopot samples which came out recently, not a single E was found! They were all closer to the Middle Danube-Balaton area:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...ll=46.983580749742856,18.115367935351514&z=10

So especially widespread cultures need more careful sampling, even more so if they being found to be quite diverse already (like Lengyel-Sopot was).
Click to expand...


Has there been some new ancient ev13 finds or something?
 
Johane Derite said:
Has there been some new ancient ev13 finds or something?
Click to expand...

Well, I realised that we have already some autosomal profiles, even if just singular samples from rather irregular burials, so with some uncertainty, from F?zesabony/late Otomani, Kyjatice and G?va. All three show a clear pattern, being more Corded Ware/Beaker shifted than the J2b block of Illyrians, all three having a pull towards WHG.
In the new British paper are 4 E-V13 samples, they are all on different positions, but essentially along a cline of F?zesabony (most Corded-shifted) to BGR_IA/MDA_Scythians (Least Corded-shifted), together with other Neolithic haplogroups and R-Z2103, which mixed Balkan samples (Southern pulled) are in some respects intermediate between E-V13 and J2b in position, so between West and East Balkan. The E-V13 being split between Pannonian and East Balkan, J2b is West Balkan.
So I think my thesis of E-V13 spreading on both sides of the Carpathians is well and alive, even though so far only the Eastern pathway is well-proven with Psenichevo and the Basarabi related finds. If its early on both sides of the Carpathians, regardless of where it was before, E-V13 must have spread with G?va/Channelled Ware. We need the context of the samples, but going by their autosomal profile, it looks that way I'd say.
And the only proven E1b1b heavy group in the later Neolithic period being Lengyel, secondarily Michelsberger. Lengyel and Michelsberger were connected, because Lengyel did colonise early deep into Southern Germany, Michelsberger later moved to the East also.

The Lengyel samples are older
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...I&ll=47.38747731264397,17.143077896289014&z=7

And could have spread over the Danubian pathway.

Also, recently read that exactly where F?zesabony, Kyjatice and G?va were coming up, in the Northern Carpathians, Lengyel survived the longest, and they were reknowned miners and metallurgists to their end. Same goes for F?zesabony and Kyjatice-G?va. If there a Northern Pannonian cluster is real, which contains R-Z2103, E-V13, J2a, H and I2, it would fit into the scheme for a mixed group with Lengyel elements in included.
The new Verteba paper adds another possibly G?va related (female) individual to this North Pannonian cluster and it adds that in the Pannonian-Carpathian-Ukrainian zone a WHG pulled Neolithic population existed, which we later see in Mako. And this population brought up, by mixing with Epi-Corded and other Neolithics, this North Pannonian cluster. So there is definitely something going on in the North Carpathians and this mixed group did expand two times, first with Unetice, second with Urnfield. The unusually high WHG in the Tollense samples might be related to this too.
 
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