Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

bigsnake49 said:

Roman and Byzantine empires also had tax rolls. Romans had a census I believe every 10 years and had very elaborate and sophisticated land surveying methods. In the beginning the Romans auctioned off the taxes due like the Greeks but later the tax collector were provincial officials. Th Byzantine's continued using the Roman taxation system. Just because we don't have extant tax rolls everywhere does not mean they did not exist.

Click to expand...

And ottomans did the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

It's very possible that the reason of why don't Peloponnesian genetics fit this "Slavs expelled-Greeks from Anatolia&Italy came" story is that a great part of modern Peloponnesians don't descend from the Byzantine ones but are instead later internal migrants from other mainland parts like Central Greece, Thessaly & Epirus ,so no matter what was the situation back then and if these kind of movements had impact or not, it's irrelevant for the moderns.

Angela said:

Good. Then let's see the census figures broken out for each ethnicity for the periods before and after the exile of all the Slavs and the importation of all these Italians and Anatolian Greeks.

I would also want some foundation evidence as to how many census takers there were to cover the country, the methods used etc.

If you're going to claim a mass replacement of the entire Peloponnese you're going to have to do better than you've done so far.

You also haven't answered my question about the steppe percentages in modern people of the Peloponnese. It's more than would be in Sicilian Greeks or certainly than in Anatolian Greeks. Where did the excess come from if all the Slavs were expelled? If you can't satisfactorily answer that question then your hypothesis fails.

Also, what made you turn against Fallermayer? You were one of his biggest supporters. It was all Slavs and Albanians, not an actual Greek in sight.

Click to expand...

Clearly you have no Idea what Fallermayer has stated. Can you please go read, start with your

George Stamatoyannopoulos?

What Fallermayer said and how George “dismantle” it.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718#ref-CR10

But guess what he is silent about Albanians and y-dna.

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Angela said:

Good grief! No, it doesn't mean that, but what good does it do anyone to know that they once existed if we don't have them and therefore we have no idea what they actually SHOWED. It means there is NO PROOF of what they contained, and therefore no proof of the statements put forth by Blevins that there was a population replacement in the Peloponnese.

People, let's have some logic and common sense, shall we?

It's like Amber Heard constantly blathering about the mountains of evidence she has for her allegations, but the evidence was and is never produced, or if it's produced it's fragmentary, or the context is completely different from the one asserted, or the "evidence" is not an original document and so could have been altered.

You wouldn't even win in traffic court with this kind of reasoning, much less put together a population genetics paper.

Click to expand...

Come on Angela, guess who is in Heard’s position. Fallmerayer went to Greece 170 years ago, he wrote what he saw. Than you have more Slavic toponimo in Morea than in Serbia, than you have Y-DNA that was not present at Mycenaean Greek, than you have Byzantine sources that say replacement and transfers, on the other side you have George Stamatoyannopoulos that as provided proof beyond reasonable doubt that there is continuity of ancient Greeks in Morea, but he does not mention Albanians movements nor he tries to distinguish them.

Now depends what is meant by this continuity, Fallmerayer, states that few pocket where Byzantine control was kept survived.
Definitely there is continuity for the Indians of America and in this sense there is continuity for the Morea Greeks as well, at this level I have no disagreement.

There was no reason for me to post anything here since there is no new studies for this matters but your negative poste towards a reasonable Greek fellow trigger it.

Ps: Do you still believe that Italians are closer to Illyrians than Albanians or you have changed your position?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Dorian9 said:

It's very possible that the reason of why don't Peloponnesian genetics fit this "Slavs expelled-Greeks from Anatolia&Italy came" story is that a great part of modern Peloponnesians don't descend from the Byzantine ones but are instead later internal migrants from other mainland parts like Central Greece, Thessaly & Epirus ,so no matter what was the situation back then and if these kind of movements had impact or not, it's irrelevant for the moderns.

Click to expand...

You're exactly right. I've traced my paternal side from Messinia back to Arcadia (as sheepherders) in the 17th c. and (possibly) from Epirus prior to that. So like I've mentioned before I believe there was a lot of inter-regional movement (could have been a lot North to South movement) over the years particularly prior to and during the Ottoman occupation when the Peloponnese was relatively sparse.

matadworf said:

You're exactly right. I've traced my paternal side from Messinia back to Arcadia (as sheepherders) in the 17th c. and (possibly) from Epirus prior to that. So like I've mentioned before I believe there was a lot of inter-regional movement (could have been a lot North to South movement) over the years particularly prior to and during the Ottoman occupation when the Peloponnese was relatively sparse.

Click to expand...

Is it possible that the higher Steppe in modern Peloponnesians vs. early Byzantine era populations has more to do with internal migration from Northern Greece vs. extensive Slav admixture. Could it be both?

matadworf said:

Is it possible that the higher Steppe in modern Peloponnesians vs. early Byzantine era populations has more to do with internal migration from Northern Greece vs. extensive Slav admixture. Could it be both?

Click to expand...

Majority of R1b is Z2705 in northern Greece or South Albanian and it is all expanded from one person in the last 1500 years. I believe the same situations may appear Morea as well.
How is that for a continuity scenario.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

blevins13 said:

Come on Angela, guess who is in Heard’s position. Fallmerayer went to Greece 170 years ago, he wrote what he saw. Than you have more Slavic toponimo in Morea than in Serbia, than you have Y-DNA that was not present at Mycenaean Greek, than you have Byzantine sources that say replacement and transfers, on the other side you have George Stamatoyannopoulos that as provided proof beyond reasonable doubt that there is continuity of ancient Greeks in Morea, but he does not mention Albanians movements nor he tries to distinguish them.

Now depends what is meant by this continuity, Fallmerayer, states that few pocket where Byzantine control was kept survived.
Definitely there is continuity for the Indians of America and in this sense there is continuity for the Morea Greeks as well, at this level I have no disagreement.

There was no reason for me to post anything here since there is no new studies for this matters but your negative poste towards a reasonable Greek fellow trigger it.

Ps: Do you still believe that Italians are closer to Illyrians than Albanians or you have changed your position?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Click to expand...

As always, you claim you have evidence but can never provide it, not even precise percentages for precise yDna lines in precise areas.

As far as Illyrians are concerned, autosomally, Northern Italians come out pretty close to ancient Illyrian samples. Doesn't mean Northern Italians are descended from them, of course. It's probably just that the same or similar groups of people went both to Northern Italy and the eastern Adriatic coast. If you knew anything about population genetics you would understand that. As to how close modern Albanians are to those ancient Illyrian samples, I know some people posted samples, but I don't remember the results and don't care. Why would I?

Why don't you run the calculators on your own data and let us know if you're closer than Northern Italians or not since it bothers you so much.

I just needed to get you to reveal, in your own words, what this is all about; as always, there are no Greeks, only Albanians. It worked.

Now you go on ignore. You're just a t-roll.

matadworf said:

Is it possible that the higher Steppe in modern Peloponnesians vs. early Byzantine era populations has more to do with internal migration from Northern Greece vs. extensive Slav admixture. Could it be both?

Click to expand...

It could certainly be both, imo.

The only way to really know these things to a reasonable degree of certainty would be to have samples from the various periods of history and compare them.

blevins13 said:

Clearly you have no Idea what Fallermayer has stated. Can you please go read, start with your

George Stamatoyannopoulos?

What Fallermayer said and how George “dismantle” it.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718#ref-CR10

But guess what he is silent about Albanians and y-dna.

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Click to expand...

I am reading you, again and again here,
and Trully, I CN NOT REALIZE WHAT ARE YOU AFTER.

My Anser.

1. All Albanians claim Autochthonus, so were they here when S Greeks colonise inhabit, and almost Hellinise Epirus Nova and Central (core) Albania,
you called it Durress, but it was Roman Dyrrachion (again greek word) and it was Epidamnos, a colony of Corinthians? you called Pogianni but it was Apollonia?
So plz ASK YOUR SHELF HOW MUCH ANCIENT GREEK INFLUENCE IS IN ''Autochthonus'' Albanians, BEFORE THEY MOVE SOUTH TO MOREA.

2. You call Stamatoyiannopoulos, and other, WHY YOU DO NOT Also call the Balkanic (around Cetina) origin of Selloi- Hellenes.
we all know here, that Greeks are primary a unification of Minoans Myceneans non Hellenic, and Dorians (Hellenic) populations.

3. explain plz what are you after, what you want to prove,
we do not offcourse discuss abour female continuity whixh is very strong,
but about male, so:
3a. Do you believe there is no continuity in male polpulation is Greece?
3b. Do you believe is very small continuity in male population from antique to today in Greece?
3c, How much you estimate is male continuity in Greece from antique, to Roman era to Today?

4, we both know that ALBANIA WAS ALSO IN PARTS HEAVILY INHABITED BY SLAVS, even today, pop like Goranjie, Torbesh, are just Muslim Slavs, era of Dusan, Neem... how ever is written,
The possibility of a shift towards Slavic be from Albanian migrations to Peloponese, HAS IT PASS FROM YOUR MIND?

5. There was a strong town, and generally a move of population to Albania at Roman era,
I am reffering to Germidava after Dacian wars, etc etc, how much this change the population of Albania, comparing the Slavic admixture in Peloponese? (Notice, not North Greece, Peloponese)?

Those samples in Northern Illyria were closest to Northern Italians autosomally for sure and I am not surprised since it is also close to Northern Italy

matadworf said:

Is it possible that the higher Steppe in modern Peloponnesians vs. early Byzantine era populations has more to do with internal migration from Northern Greece vs. extensive Slav admixture. Could it be both?

Click to expand...

I'm Laconian. I've heard old stories of Greeks coming down from farther north during Ottoman times because that region was either never under Ottoman rule or loosely controlled, depending on the specific area. On a side note: the old people in my town used to all say the famous Sfakiotes of Crete were originally from the Peloponnese. They were warlike, and a sizable portion of the them had to leave long ago due to the insane blood feuds. Sounds far fetched, but you gotta wonder why would anybody just make this up.

Anyway, given the recent Danubian Frontier paper, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the parallel. History repeats itself. More people were milling about from other parts of the Empire. The the Empire faded, and so did the immigrants. And the natives came down from the mountains (of which there are many) and reasserted themselves. A viable option, I think.

Yetos said:

I am reading you, again and again here,
and Trully, I CN NOT REALIZE WHAT ARE YOU AFTER.

Click to expand...

Stop being so unnecessarily aggressive, man.

And you claim you are "Makedonian original" but with your own admission you have Pontic roots, so that's the originality part out of the window.

Pontics are not Macedonian, we never were and never will be, we have our own culture and tradition that is Ionic in its Greek part, not Doric/Macedonian, so stop being so cringe-worthily over the top.

Here’s the second part to Razib K’s piece in Greece. Pretty much says everything that’s been discussed on this site and others for the past 5 years. My only question is why he uses WHG, CHG and EEF (does CHG represent something else?) when comparing ancients to moderns.
https://razib.substack.com/p/theyre...paign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=direct

Oh wait is he combining WHG and CHG to make Steppe. Because when I look at the graph there’s a sizable chunk of WHG shown in moderns but when we see these ancestral breakdowns on novice calcs it shows a negligible amount of WHG.

Yetos said:

I am reading you, again and again here,
and Trully, I CN NOT REALIZE WHAT ARE YOU AFTER.

My Anser.

1. All Albanians claim Autochthonus, so were they here when S Greeks colonise inhabit, and almost Hellinise Epirus Nova and Central (core) Albania,
you called it Durress, but it was Roman Dyrrachion (again greek word) and it was Epidamnos, a colony of Corinthians? you called Pogianni but it was Apollonia?
So plz ASK YOUR SHELF HOW MUCH ANCIENT GREEK INFLUENCE IS IN ''Autochthonus'' Albanians, BEFORE THEY MOVE SOUTH TO MOREA.

2. You call Stamatoyiannopoulos, and other, WHY YOU DO NOT Also call the Balkanic (around Cetina) origin of Selloi- Hellenes.
we all know here, that Greeks are primary a unification of Minoans Myceneans non Hellenic, and Dorians (Hellenic) populations.

3. explain plz what are you after, what you want to prove,
we do not offcourse discuss abour female continuity whixh is very strong,
but about male, so:
3a. Do you believe there is no continuity in male polpulation is Greece?
3b. Do you believe is very small continuity in male population from antique to today in Greece?
3c, How much you estimate is male continuity in Greece from antique, to Roman era to Today?

4, we both know that ALBANIA WAS ALSO IN PARTS HEAVILY INHABITED BY SLAVS, even today, pop like Goranjie, Torbesh, are just Muslim Slavs, era of Dusan, Neem... how ever is written,
The possibility of a shift towards Slavic be from Albanian migrations to Peloponese, HAS IT PASS FROM YOUR MIND?

5. There was a strong town, and generally a move of population to Albania at Roman era,
I am reffering to Germidava after Dacian wars, etc etc, how much this change the population of Albania, comparing the Slavic admixture in Peloponese? (Notice, not North Greece, Peloponese)?

Click to expand...

Very strong post, a way to go after so long in this forum, but I think off topic. Albanian are discussed elsewhere. This Selloi-Cetinja connection is the cherry [emoji523] at the top. Put it PCA and see what you get.

PS: my reason for posting is that I am allergic to BS.

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

matadworf said:

Oh wait is he combining WHG and CHG to make Steppe. Because when I look at the graph there’s a sizable chunk of WHG shown in moderns but when we see these ancestral breakdowns on novice calcs it shows a negligible amount of WHG.

Click to expand...

European HG probably contains all variations, not just WHG.

Ancient Greece, especially from LBA to Roman period is very understudied genetically. Iberia, Italy, UK and other regions as well, all have numerous samples compared to sole 4 Late Bronze Age samples.
Given the interest from the public it should've been first in line.
Even the upcomming study has like 10 samples. Autosomally I think they are pretty represantive but I am more interested in the Y-Dna.
The Southern Arc paper seem to lack IA Greek samples too.

Angela said:

Carrying what yDna do you suspect?

If the leaks are correct, there is R1b-Z2103. What is the percentage of that lineage in Greece?

What other steppe yDna might they have carried? One cannot, of course, count the yDna of the Slavs who came so much later, so what is left do you speculate?

Click to expand...

The rumours about Mycenaean samples from Pylos are about R1b-PF7562 not R1b-Z2103. R1b-PF7562 as a lineage in modern Greeks is insignificant. I do however expect R1b-Z2103 to perhaps also show up.

matadworf said:

Oh wait is he combining WHG and CHG to make Steppe. Because when I look at the graph there’s a sizable chunk of WHG shown in moderns but when we see these ancestral breakdowns on novice calcs it shows a negligible amount of WHG.

Click to expand...

The Graphs are from the following study by Clemente et al. (2021). They combine WHG and EHG under the same label "European Hunter Gatherer". And they combine European Hunter Gatherer, as you noticed, to detect the steppe ancestry.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421003706