J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

Also for these that want to better understand Kosovo history, North Albanian clans, Orthodox and Catholic Kosovar Albanians, but also later Muslim ones, also events that followed its best for begging to read Noel Malcolm book, British academic and historian: Kosovo, A Short History.

I have retyped important part from his book regarding this discussion:


Early Ottoman Kosovo, 1450s-1580s
By the time of Patriarchate was re-established at Peć, the town of Peć itself may already have gained an absolute majority of Muslims. At the same time, there is an increasing volume of evidence that parts of Western Kosovo had a significant Albanian population, evidence which goes beyond anything that can be demonstrated for the medieval period. Some modern Albanian scholars have put these phenomena together - the growth of Islam and the apparent growth of an Albanian population - to argue that what er are seeing in both cases is the emergence of a previously invisible mass of ethnic Albanians, who had been disguised in the records under Slav Orthodox names. It is claimed that the loss of authority by the Peć Patriarchate in this area between 1455 and 1557 had made t possible for these Albanian to detach themselves from Serbian control; and that white ethnic Serbs would have felt a continuing (and, after 1557, a revived) attachment to their Church which would have prevented the from turning to Islam, the ethnic Albanians would have felt no such scruples about adopting this new religion. Thus, it is suggested, the people who became Muslims were nearly all of them ethnic Albanians, and the creation of a Muslim majority was the same time merely the revelation of an already existing Albanian majority.

Some aspects of this argument are unconvincing on a priori grounds. Ethnic Albanian are unlikely to have felt estranged from the Serbian Church merely because it was not their 'national' Church; this is to project a modern idea of 'national' loyalties a little too far into the past. Orthodox Albanians in southern Albania and Greece, for example, remained loyal to the Greek Church and its liturgy for many generations, even though they may spoken only Albanian in the home. Nor, conversely, were Slavs incapable of converting to Islam: it was happening all the time in the neighboring territories of Macedonia and Novi Pazar, as well as in Bosnia and Hercegovina. (As early as 1580 the 6,000-odd households of the Novi Pazar district were almost entirely Muslim.) Many of Albanian names which crop up in the early Ottoman registers for Kosovo are Catholic Albanian Christian names, such as 'Gjin' (john) and 'Doda' (a diminutive of Dominic); and it is not clear why Albanian who had long been Serbian Orthodox should have regarded the Catholic Church, with its Latin liturgy and Italian-trained priests, as more deserving of 'national' loyalty than a Church based in their own locality.

On all these grounds, one might feel tempted to reject this argument entirely. Those who do so (and this includes almost all Serbian historians) explain the growth of an Albanian population in Kosovo during the early Ottoman period in terms of physical immigration: it is suggested that Albanian from the Malësi were encouraged by the Ottomans to settle in Kosovo, that many of these turned to Islam to gain advantages of superior status, and that those Slavs who became Muslims were not merely Islamicized but, sooner or later, Albanianized as well.

Although the Albanian historians argument seems unconvincing for general reasons, it nevertheless comes buttressed with some intriguing evidence from the Ottoman registers. The Ottoman officials usually noted which heads of the family were 'new arrivals' in their places of the residence: out of 121 new arrivals in the nahiye of Peć in 1485, the majority had Slav names. In the sancak of Prizren in 1591, only five new arrivals out of forty-one bore Albanian names; and in a group of Kosovo towns in the 1580s and 1590s there were twenty-five new Albanian immigrants and 133 with Slav names - several of them described as coming from Bosnia. This evidence counts strongly against the idea a mass immigration from northern Albania. Other more general arguments against that idea are based of relative population sizes and rates of growth. The population of Kosovo during this period was much bigger than that northern and central Albanian, and its rate of growth was actually lower. This is not what one would expect if a large overflow from the Albanian Malësi were flooding into Kosovo. All arguments which depend on identifying Slav or Albanian names are of course subject to doubts about whether the names really did indicate ethnic-linguistic identity - which is, of course, one of the key points at issue. In a previous discussion of this question it was suggested that although names are not very trustworthy in any particular case, the broad pattern probably does indicate both the nature of the dominant culture and the direction of flow of any tendencies to assimilation.On that basis it is reasonable to say that a Serbian Orthodox culture was overwhelmingly dominant in Eastern Kosovo: the first Ottoman register, of 1455, yields only a small minority of Albanian names, and many of these involve an Albanian-named father and a Slav Orthodox-named son ('Radislav, son of Djon'; Radovan , son of Djin'). 'Arnaud', which suggests that their Albanian identity was a distinguishing feature, setting them apart from the most od the surrounding population. In the 1570s there was a mahalle (quarter) of Janjevo called 'Arbanas'; roughly half of its heads of families had Slav or mixed Slav-Albanian names. According to some Albanian historians, this shows that many apparent Slavs were really Albanian-speaking Albanians. Simpler explanation, surely, would be that the small Albanian minority in Janjevo was gradually being assimilated to the Serbian-speaking majority.

On the other hand, there is clear evidence of Orthodox names appearing in Albanian-language forms - which implies that adherence to the Orthodox Church did not necessarily involve assimilation to a Serbian-language culture. While the majority of the Albanian names in Western Kosovo were Catholic, a significant minority were Orthodox, including several of the fifteen Orthodox families that constituted the entire Orthodox population of Peć in the 1590s. (Also in Western Kosovo in this period were 'Gjon, son of an Orthodox priest', and 'Gjonja, an Orthodox monk'). Again, Albanian historians argue from this that most of the Orthodox population in Kosovo was in fact Albanian; it would surely be simpler to suppose the the majority of the Orthodox (who do have Slav names) were Serbian-speaking and a minority Albanian-speaking, and that the Albanians were not assimilated linguistically because there was also a significant population of Catholic Albanians in Western Kosovo - as the other Albanian names clearly show.

The evidence scrupulously presented by one leading Albanian historian, Selami Pulaha, does not really support the argument which he then tries to build on it. in 1591, for example, in the nahiye of Hoça (north of Prizren), there were 883 heads of family with Slav or other orthodox names, 196 with mixed Albanian-Slav names and 248 with purely Albanian names; Pulaha's conclusion is that the area was 'completely Albanian'. A group of Kosovo towns in the same period yields 330 purely Slav Orthodox names and 217 mixed Albanian-Slav or purely Albanian; Pulaha deduces that the urban population was 'almost completely Albanian'. Similarly, the claim that only Albanians became Muslims can be argued only on the basis of the prior assumption that all people with Slav names were really Albanians. Of the Muslims of Hoça in 1591, fifty-four had Albanian names and nineteen Slav names; of those in the Has district (near Gjakova) in 1571, 166 had Albanian names and 37 Slav names. What this suggests is not that Slavs never became Muslims, but that a higher proportion of Albanians did so; and the reason for that catholic Albanians were even less well supplied with priests in the early Ottoman period than they had been under Serbian rule. What a straightforward reading of this evidence would suggest is that there were significant reservoirs of a mainly Catholic Albanian-speaking population in parts of Western Kosovo; and evidence from the following century suggests that many of these eventually became Muslims. Whether Albanian-speakers were a majority in Western Kosovo at this time seems very doubtful, and it is clear that they were only a small minority in the east. On the other hand, it is also clear that the Albanian minority in Eastern Kosovo predated the Ottoman conquest.

Finally, one other social process was taking place in this period which is also relevant to arguments about the migration of Albanians into Kosovo: the formation of the northern Albanian clans. As was mentioned in the first chapter, these clans appear to have been formed out of groups of pastoral families in the Malësi from the late Middle Ages onward: the main stimulus must have been the requirement of self-protection after the old system of powerful land-owning families (Balshas, Dukagjins, and so on) had been broken up by the Ottoman invasions and the disruptions of the fifteenth-century revolts. Dome of the oldest clans preserve detailed family trees in their oral tradition, going back to founder-ancestors in the fourteenth or fifteenth centuries; other were formed from sub-branches of these older clans.

The key development, it seems, was the adaptation of the social structures of pastoral life to the purposes of territorial self-defenses, with several of the clans of the northern Malësi, the process by which vëllazëris (brotherhoods) came together to form clans can be traced through Venetian and Ottoman documents, to the period between 1455 and 1485: what happens in these cases was that the members of the dominant brotherhood would impose their name on the whole clan, and on the territory which the clan defended. And at some time in the sixteenth century the Ottoman authorities gave up even trying to impose their normal administrative or feudal system in those areas, letting the clans run their own affairs in virtual 'zones of self-government' instead. Curiously, the development of the clan system in Scotland was taking breakdown central power and feudal structures in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. Scottish clans also developed the idea of common ancestry: 'at first this relationship might clearly be seen as fictitious or honorary, but in time the metaphor of kinship tended to be converted into belief that real blood kinship existed.

Thus, increasingly, Albanian from the Malësi would bear the name of their clan as a kind of surname: Berisha, Këlmendi, Shala and so on.There are many people with these names in modern Kosovo, and it is clear that, from the early seventeenth century onward at least some of their ancestors must have come into Kosovo as immigrants from the Malësi. ('At least some' is a necessary qualifications, because we cannot assume that the process of agglomeration - of people joining a clan and taking its name - never took place on Kosovo soil.) However, there are also many Kosovo Albanian who do not bear clan names. Serbian writers sometimes argue that all these Albanian must therefore be Albanianized Serbs, as if all genuine Albanians would originally have belong to clans. but since we know that there were non-clan Albanian in Kosovo as early as the fifteenth century, that clans were only formed in areas which (unlike Kosovo) lacked governmental security, and indeed that many of the clans in the Malësi were still only in the process of formation at that time, this particular version of the argument about 'Albanianized Serbs' can simply be dismissed.

pages 111 - 115, Kosovo, a short history. N. Malcolm.
 
Also regarding Krici tribe, as Serbs labeled this entire cluster, problem is that their Krici surnamed members dont have any serious STR or SNP test.
Therefore they cant even identify Krici cluster. My advice is to test Krici surnames members at higher resolution, before bringing conclusions.

As it looks our overall TMRCA goes prior to Krici tribe, therefore expansion could have happened before Krici tribe. But probably not far away from Montenegro and surrounding areas.
 
Dema's ancestors before albanization were Serbs. This is the fact.
Dema deny own Serbian origin and claim that his ancestors were Vlachs.

Dema has 18% Eastern Europe autosomally because his ancestors were Serbs and that is heritage from Dema's Serbian ancestors.
 
Dema's ancestors before albanization were Serbs. This is the fact.

Repeating something 1000 times like parrot does not make it a fact. For facts you need facts. There is not a single genetic fact, even if i wanted to believe this, as explained above genetic research does not agree with it.

Dema deny own Serbian origin and claim that his ancestors were Vlachs.

I am clearly Albanian, i say we were Vlachs because when looking genetically, looks like we arrived thru Roman Empire Fertile Crescent provinces and surroundings. Also Krici tribe that is Y22066+, are also recorded as Montenegrin Latin speaking tribe, so Vlachs.
All tested Y22066 so far were Latin speakers at one point, that is the only thing what connects them with other Vlachs like Aromuns.
Actually Y22066, is what separates Serbs in Croatian Krajina and RS in Bosnia from Croats and Bosnjaks where they are historically known as Vlachs, its Vlach element in them :) But also significant E-v13. E-v13, which can be directly from Albanians.

Dema has 18% Eastern Europe autosomally because his ancestors were Serbs and that is heritage from Dema's Serbian ancestors.

I remember we already discussed this :bored: - https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ic-Y-DNA/page8?p=549366&viewfull=1#post549366
Serbs dont Plot with Croats and Slovens because of Albanian, Vlach and Bulgarian influence is pulling them South.

I plot just fine with Albanians:
(Eurogenes v2 K15)
s3kaqw.jpg
 
Again: Krajina Serbs are the most norther shifted Serbs.
More northern shifted = less Vlach influence, deal with it!
Krajina Serbs ploting same northern as Bosnian muslims and Croatians.

There are Kriči among Bosnian Muslim such as for example muslim family Tetarić from Banja Luka J2b1-M205 (cyrillic Тетарић) [video]https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1193.msg95850#msg95850[/video]

New Krajinian Serbs R1a
Bižić (Бижић) from Kordun [video]https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1193.msg95853#msg95853[/video]
Obradović (cyrillic Обрадовић) from Bruvno (cyrillic Брувно) in Lika [video]https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1193.msg95833#msg95833[/video]
Sudar and Roksandić (cyrillic Судар / Роксандић) [video]https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=1193.msg95861#msg95861[/video]
Roksandić is from Banija or Slavonia. Sudar is Krajina Serbs we don't know from which region yet. Surname Sudar exist among Serbs from Dalmatia, Lika and Kordun.

Krajina Serbs have more R1a than Serbs from Serbia.

There are also plenty of new results of Krajina Serbs which are I2a in the last 7-8 days.
 
@Dema, we should take into account that there are two distinct Serb populations, autosomally.

One is Serbs from Serbia. These are the "real" Serbs as they origin from the population of medieval Serbia. During the Ottoman invasion some of them moved north into Syrmia and Banat. These Serbs hold significant paleobalkan admixture as they plot near Romanians and Albanians.

Second group is the Serb minority of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, popularly called "western Serbs". In the past they were called "Vlachs". However, autosomally they can’t be distinguished from their neighbors: Croats and Bosniaks.

So "western" Serbs probably can't be of "real" Vlach origin because they plot away from Romanians (Vlachs) and Albanians. However, it seem that they partly descend from Vlachs as they poses an elevated frequency of E1b haplogroup, comparing to Croats and Bosniaks. However, that "Vlach" signal was not sufficient to significantly change their autosomal profile.

@Bachus, your argument that - the “western Serbs” can’t be of Vlach origin because they are autosomally distant from Vlachs - is correct, but neither can they be of Serb origin, using the same criteria. ;)
 
@Dema, we should take into account that there are two distinct Serb populations, autosomally.

One is Serbs from Serbia. These are the "real" Serbs as they origin from the population of medieval Serbia. During the Ottoman invasion some of them moved north into Syrmia and Banat. These Serbs hold significant paleobalkan admixture as they plot near Romanians and Albanians.

Second group is the Serb minority of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, popularly called "western Serbs". In the past they were called "Vlachs". However, autosomally they can’t be distinguished from their neighbors: Croats and Bosniaks.

So "western" Serbs probably can't be of "real" Vlach origin because they plot away from Romanians (Vlachs) and Albanians. However, it seem that they partly descend from Vlachs as they poses an elevated frequency of E1b haplogroup, comparing to Croats and Bosniaks. However, that "Vlach" signal was not sufficient to significantly change their autosomal profile.

@Bachus, your argument that - the “western Serbs” can’t be of Vlach origin because they are autosomally distant from Vlachs - is correct, but neither can they be of Serb origin, using the same criteria. ;)

His claim about Vlachs origin of Krajina Serbs is nonsense.
If he said that Montenegrins or Serbs from southern/eastern Serbia are of Vlach origin this would make more sense but still not be completely true.
We don't have samples of medieval Serb to compared to modern Serbs. Migtht be that western Serbs are closer autosomally to medieval Serbs than Serbs from Serbia.
Western Serbs are autosomally closer to Croatians not just than to Romanians/Bulgarians but also than to Serbs from Serbia and Montenegrins.

E-V13 amomg Bosnian Serbs is about 14% and anong Krajina Serbs 12-13%. Both Bosnian and Krajina Serbs have less E-V13 than Serbs from Serbia and quite less than Montenegrins.
Among Krajina and Bosnian Serbs the strongesst is I2a, than R1a and E-V13 is on the third place. Among Serbs from Serbia I2a is the strongest and R1a and E-V13 are prertty elevated. In some regions of Serbia is stronger R1a and ib some E-V13, but if we look whole Serbia these haplogropups has very similar %.
 
We don't have samples of medieval Serb to compared to modern Serbs. Migtht be that western Serbs are closer autosomally to medieval Serbs than Serbs from Serbia.

Might be, but we can't judge based on something that is just a speculation.

But you know that the Serbs from Serbia are the majority of all Serbs. In case you were right, and the Serbs from Serbia realy changed after the medieval times, then what genetic signal, and how strong, could have been to shift almost entire Serbian population to another autosomal cluster? If you take a look into the PCA plot, you could see that the gap is quite big.

Could we identify that genetic signal betwen 15th and 19th century?
 
His claim about Vlachs origin of Krajina Serbs is nonsense.

Well, the fact is that these people were called "Vlach" in almost all historical sources. On the other hand, it is also the fact that genetics do not see them as "real" Vlachs. Maybe only part of them were of a real Vlach origin, and others were just locals who switched to the Vlach lifestyle or got the Vlach status.

So what is the real origin of Croatian Vlachs? If we favour genetic and linguistic criteria, the answer is simple.
 
Well, the fact is that these people were called "Vlach" in almost all historical sources. On the other hand, it is also the fact that genetics do not see them as "real" Vlachs. Maybe only part of them were of a real Vlach origin, and others were just locals who switched to the Vlach lifestyle or got the Vlach status.

So what is the real origin of Croatian Vlachs? If we favour genetic and linguistic criteria, the answer is simple.

They were just in a "vlach status", same as Cathlolic Bunjevci. They are genetically far away from real ethnic Vlachs such as Aromanians.
Even Krajina Serbs who are E and J were not Latin speakers when they arrived to Krajina. They were Serbian speakers (and autosomally same as I2a/R1a Serbs) because they assimilated in the middle age by I2a and R1a Serbs.
Interesting thing about genetic of Krajina Serbs is the presence of R1a-Z280>Y2613. This haplogroup almost does not exist among Serb east of Vrbas river, but among Serbs west of Vrbas river has solid %.
Krajina Serbs mostly originater from eastern Herzegovina. But there are significant % of natives of Donji Kraji (western Bosnia) among them. Natives of Donji Kraji lingustiocally were assimilated by eastern Herzegovinians in western Bosnia. Natives of western Bosnia were ikavians and eastern Herzegovinians were ijekavians. Many Serbian Krajina families originated from natives of western Bosnia and they were ikavians in the past. Ancestors of Nikola Tesla originated from Kupres, they are cousins with Serbian families Svitlica, Orelj and Milinović from Kupres. Slava of all of them is Đurđevdan.

In this document from the year 1596 Serbian leaders from Pounje (western Bosnia) wrote to Austrians. Reason is fight against the Ottoman. Serbs from Pounje wanted to be allies of Austrians against the Ottomans.
It's written in cyrillyc in ikavian dialect. These Serbs were in the "vlach status" but Austrian call them Serben (Serbs).
Bishof Radoslav und undere Hautpleute der Serben von Pounje schreiben Erzherzog Ferdinand wegen gemeinsamer Aktion gege die Türken - Bishof Radoslav from Pounje and other leaders of Serbs write to herzeg Ferdinand because of common action against the Turks.
As you can see Serbs from western Bosnia were in a "vlach status" but their real ethnicity were Serbian and Austrian confirmed this. Dema pretend that don't understand the difference between "vlach status" (social category) and Vlach as nation - Latin speaking paleo-Balkanites.
Cy9cJR5.jpg
 
They were just in a vlach status, same as Bunjevci. They are genetically far away from eaql Vlachs such as Aromanians.
Even Krajina Serbs who are E and J were not Latin speakers when they arrived to Krajina. They were Serbian soeakers because they serbized in middle age by I2a and R1a Serbs.
Krajina Serbs mostly origuinater from eastern Herzegovina. But there are significant % of natives of Donji Kraji (western Bosnia) among them. Natives of Donji Kraji lingustiocally were assimilated by eastern Herzegovinians in western Bosnia. Natives of western Bosnia were ikavians and eastern Herzegovinians were ijekavians. Many Serbian Krajina families originated from natives of western Bosnia and they were ikavians in the past. Ancestors of Nikola Tesla originated from Kupres, they are cousins with Serbian families Svitlica, Orelj and Milinović. Slava of all of them is Đurđevdan.

These natives in Donji Kraji, even the ones from Herzegovina were not called "Serbs" before they became Serb Orthodox. Present day Western Bosnia was even called "Turkish Croatia" long after the Ottoman occupation, only later to be renamed to "Bosnian Krajina". Many of the locals converted to Islam, some became Serb Orthodox due to the lack of Catholic priests and monks after the destruction of the churches.

It is not surprise that the people of that area are genetically and linguistically closest to present day Croats because the change of the religion does not affect genes. Only those who converted to Serb Orthodoxy later called themselves Serbs (19th century). In a similar manner the Muslim population of the area started to call themselves Bosniaks (as of 1992).
 
In this document from the year 1596 Serbian leaders from Pounje (western Bosnia) wrote to Austrians. Reason is fight against the Ottoman. Serbs from Pounje wanted to be allies of Austrians against the Ottomans.
It's written in cyrillyc in ikavian dialect. These Serbs were in the "vlach status" but Austrian call them Serben (Serbs).
Bishof Radoslav und undere Hautpleute der Serben von Pounje schreiben Erzherzog Ferdinand wegen gemeinsamer Aktion gege die Türken - Bishof Radoslav from Pounje and other leaders of Serbs write to herzeg Ferdinand because of common action against the Turks.
As you can see Serbs from western Bosnia were in a "vlach status" but their real ethnicity were Serbian and Austrian confirmed this. Dema pretend that don't understand the difference between "vlach status" (social category) and Vlach as nation - Latin speaking paleo-Balkanites.
Cy9cJR5.jpg

The text is written in ikavian (Croatian) dialect. Real Serbs were using different language ("Old Serbian").

Hopefully I can read it and in the text it says: "vlaški sinovi" ("Vlach sons"). It is obvious that they called themselves Vlachs, not Serbs. In the original record it was written - "Wallachen" (bottom of the page).

Next indicative word is “biškup” which means “bishop” in Croatian. It is typical Catholic and Croatian word, never used by Serb Orthodox Church.


The German text which "translates" vlachs to "Serbs" is obviously from more recent times. Some western sources, especially Austrian, were "classifing" all Cyrilic texts as "Serbian" according to the level of their "knowledge".
 
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The text is written in ikavian (Croatian) dialect. Real Serbs were using different language ("Old Serbian").

Hopefully I can read it and in the text it says: "vlaški sinovi" ("Vlach sons"). It is obvious that they called themselves Vlachs, not Serbs. In the original record it was written - "Wallachen" (bottom of the page).

The German text which "translates" vlachs to "Serbs" is obviously from more recent times. Some western sources, especially Austrian, were "classifing" all Cyrilic texts as "Serbian" according to their "knowledge".

That is the knowledge of 19th century. Serbs on this forum stacked in 19th century.

They were proud to be in a "vlachs status" and because of that they called thmselves "vlach sons." In that time "vlach status" = more freedom.
Serben is not written in recent time this is your fantasy. Austrians are not "Serbian mythomans" to falsify history.
People from that document were Orthodox Serbs and their language were Serbian shtokavian ikavian. In the document name of priest is Radoslav, and names of other Serbian leaders are Miloš, Dojčin, Rak, Bogdan, Vranješ, Manojlo, Tomaš, Radohna, Radoje, Živko, Vojin.. there is no Vlach names. All of this names are Serbian, only Tomaš can be also Croatian.
People from document have nothing to do with real Latin speking paleo-Balkanite Vlachs.

Question for you: This people were not real Latin speaking Vlachs, it's but obvious. What they were Serbs or Orthodox Croatians?
 
Priest Radoslav called themself first protopop and than biškup.
Priest Radoslav was an Orthodox priest and leader of 30 priest. Od hristijanskih sinov, mi protopopa Radoslav, biškup pounskih i poglavnik i zapovidnik trideset popov i pravitelj hristijanske vire...
Document is written on cyrillic and Croatians never used cyrillic, especially not in year 1596.
In 16th century a lot of Orthodox Serbs were ikavians in western Bosnia, later they ijekavized by eastern Herzegovinian Serbs. Until 25 years ago ikavian Serbs still exist around Kupres, Livno and in some parts of Dalmatia.
My origin is from Dalmatia, from 100% Serbian village. My ancestor often used the phrase " Isu krsta mi" such is written in this document by priest Radoslav.
 
They were proud to be in a "vlachs status" and because of that they called thmselves "vlach sons."

That is nonsense.

Serben is not written in recent time this is your fantasy.

Then, when is the German text written? There is the source mention below the fascimile which mentions Wallachians.


Austrians are not "Serbian mythomans" to falsify history.

Oh, yes, they were financing the Serbian language reform in 19th century. They were actively creating the Serb nation according to their agenda. They were financing the creation of the first Serbian dictionary based on the older Croatian ones. Read more about the work of Jernej Kopitar and others who used their power and "discrete right" to decide what should be called "Serbian" and what not.

People from that document were Orthodox Serbs and their language were Serbian shtokavian ikavian. In the document name of priest is Radoslav, and names of other Serbian leaders are Miloš, Dojčin, Rak, Bogdan, Vranješ, Manojlo, Tomaš, Radohna, Radoje, Živko, Vojin.. there is no Vlach names. All of this names are Serbian, only Tomaš can be also Croatian.
People from document have nothing to do with real Latin speking paleo-Balkanite Vlachs.

The names are Slavic, what makes you think that they can't be Croatian? Ikavian dialect is Croatian without any doubt. The Croatian medieval texts were mostly written in ikavian dialect, also in ijekavian. Serbian texts before 19th century were using so called "Old Serbian" which was similar to Bulgarian. Serbian culture was a completely different bird.

Question for you: This people were not real Latin speaking Vlachs, it's but obvious. What they were Serbs or Orthodox Croatians?

The word used in the text for a church leader is “biškup”, which means “bishop” in Croatian. It is typical Catholic and Croatian word, never used by Serb Orthodox Church. I can't say whether they were already Orthodox then, but the context of the document indicates the they were Catholic soon before the event. The Serb Orthodox word is "episkop".
 
There was no Catholics in Pounje in year 1596. Catholics from this area disappeared in period 1522-1536.
Priest Radoslav call themselves biškup because he speak with Austrians. When Tito arrived Africa he represents self among African tribes as "tribal chief of Yugoslavia."
My ancestors always spoke biškup and never biskup. Village Biskupija near Knin was known as Biškupija in speach of local Serbian population.
People from document were not Catholics, not in year 1596 in that part of Bosnia. Even if their ancestors once were Catholic, they were Orthodox in 1596 when is document written.
One name from document is knez Vranješ. Surname Vranješ exist among Serbs from western Bosnia, Dalmatia and Kordun.
 
There was no Catholics in Pounje in year 1596. Catholics from this area disappeared in period 1522-1536.
Priest Radoslav call themselves biškup because he speak with Austrians. When Tito arrived Africa he represents self among African tribes as "tribal chief of Yugoslavia."

That is another nonsense. Austrians speak German. The text is written in Croatian!!!!

My ancestors always spoke biškup and never biskup. Village Biskupija near Knin was known as Biškupija in speach of local Serbian population.
People from document were not Catholics, not in year 1596 in that part of Bosnia. Even if their ancestors once were Catholic, they were Orthodox in 1596 when is document written.
One name from document is knez Vranješ. Surname Vranješ exist among Serbs from western Bosnia, Dalmatia and Kordun.

You “serbified” complete Croatian history and culture. :D

Read this:

The shrine of Our Lady of Biskupija, or St. Mary of Croatia, is situated in the village of Biskupija, 5 km southeast of Knin, the former church and cultural centre of the Croatian state in the Middle Ages. Archaeologists have discovered the foundations of five churches in that village, dating from the period of Croatian rulers from the 9th to the 11th century. St Mary's church was the residence of the Bishop of Knin, who was Bishop of Croatia from 1040 to 1522. The earliest known figure of Our Lady in Croatian art was discovered by archaeologists in that same church on a part of the stone partition wall, which separated the shrine from the church nave. It is still venerated as Our Lady of the Great Croatian Vow.
 
That is another nonsense. Austrians speak German. The text is written in Croatian!!!!



You “serbified” complete Croatian history and culture. :D

Read this:

Orthodox Serbs with Serbian names wrote text in cyrillil in Croatian language in region where in 1596 there was no any Catholic Caroatian. Tell me more about this, it's very funny to me! :LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:
 
Is it possible divide the thread?
J2b1 section and "balkan" section?
Honestly, I am really tired listening your neighborhood conversations.

:)
 
@Dema, we should take into account that there are two distinct Serb populations, autosomally.

So "western" Serbs probably can't be of "real" Vlach origin because they plot away from Romanians (Vlachs) and Albanians. However, it seem that they partly descend from Vlachs as they poses an elevated frequency of E1b haplogroup, comparing to Croats and Bosniaks. However, that "Vlach" signal was not sufficient to significantly change their autosomal profile.

Wonomyro, autosomal components can drastically change thru few generations. We cannot expect west Serbs to plot near Aromanians or Albanians. Not that Krajina and RS Serbs have only higher E1b in compare to Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovenians, but what i already explained in addition to E1b there is significant J2-M205 portion in them. J2-M205>Y22059 is connected to Montenegrin Latin speaking tribe Krici, it is clear Middle Eastern Roman signal that for sure was Latin speaking Vlach prior to identify with Serb.

What is interesting is that there is almost no J-M205>Y22059 in Croats, Bosnjaks and Slovens while majority of Serbian J2-M205>Y22059 is found exactly in Croatia and RS in Bosnia. According to Serb project J2-M205 and Ev13 are 30% in Lika. They must have been Orthodox Vlachs, who because of their religion later identified with Serbs rather then with Catholic Croats.
Also note that Slavic haplogroups could eventually always come in while Vlach ones could not. Even this Vlach signal that we find today in them is significant. Its not enough to call them Vlachs for sure, but enough to verify that at least one part of these people was Vlach before.

Look at J2-M205 samples from Serb project, its not evenly distributed among them but rather on two hot spots both known for Vlach settlements.

dNyCvbO.png
 

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