Most I1 in Europe is not from Germans or Nordics

I made the estimates myself that does not mean i randomly gave a date. I put together clues from history, archaeology, and other types of DNA. I use SNP's and STR age estimates as one of the things i use to figure out the age of haplogroups.

Age estimates have been proven to be to recent before. I dont know if they estimate mtdna hg's age differently from y dna hg but age estimates for mtdna H are 20,000-25,000ybp and 25,000-30,000ybp it would have originated in the middle east probably south caucus. Then why are there two 25,000ybp H17 samples in European Russia and one 28,000 year old H sample from far southern Italy.

It was already in southern Italy 28,000ybp who knows when it first got there plus it had a subclade in European Russia 25,000ybp. H probably arrived in Europe 33,000-36,000ybp and began in the mid east 35,000-50,000ybp. That is almost twice the age they estimated so who knows how old y dna I1 is.

Fire Haired said:

I made the estimates myself that does not mean i randomly gave a date. I put together clues from history, archaeology, and other types of DNA. I use SNP's and STR age estimates as one of the things i use to figure out the age of haplogroups.

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FH..this type of thing is out of my field, so I cannot say how accurate or inaccurate your points are...but I will say your enthusiasm is to be admired.
Keep your posts tidy so they are easy to read and your points not lost. Listen when the more experienced members try to point you in the right direction. Sparkey has already replied in an attempt to share his opinions..so you are being read.

We're all eagerly awaiting your I1-CTS2208 remains dated to 8000 years ago. Actually, I'd take any ancient remains found to belong to I1 or pre-I1.

Fire Haired said:

what this shows is smai and Finnish only still have high amounts of that north european component. what i am trying to say is sami and Finnish genetically where not affected by the Neolithic farmers like the rest of europe was.

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Thats true, but they also were less affected by indo-europeans, who themselves were probably mostly paleolithic europeans, although from a different refuge probably and/or admixed with west_asian and maybe others. The map resembles the Saami component from Dodecad K3 (EDIT: not Dodecad but Structure by V. Verenich), which was the first run that has split the North_euro component into two components. I don't think the Saami component is the only paleolithic component, otherwise the separation of Lithuanians/Latvians and Finns/Estonians is hard to explain because they are actually very similar (cluster commonly in most runs, low Fst distance).

pyromatic said:

We're all eagerly awaiting your I1-CTS2208 remains dated to 8000 years ago. Actually, I'd take any ancient remains found to belong to I1 or pre-I1.

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The Rise project excepts to have 100-150 Y DNA, mtDNA(complete mitchondiral genome), and austomnal DNA from 5,000-4,000 year old human remains in south Scandinavia and central Europe. I predict mainly R1a1a1b for Polish remains because they are from from Indo European cultures like corded ware where R1a1a has already been found in their remains. I also predict some I2a1b a little G2a, and possibly some I1a1, I1a3, I1a4

For Germany probably alot of R1b L11 because that is where proto Germanic Italo Celts where 5,000ybp and 4,600 year old R1b samples have been found there already. I also predict German remains will also have alot of I2a2, I1a1, I1a3, and I1a4 also some G2a. There will probably be almost only I1a2 for Scandinavian samples unless the remains are foreigners.

They also except to get a full genome from a 7,000 year old hunter gather in Denmark. If they get the Y DNA haplogroup that will be huge because it will probably be I1a2 and prove it is much older than 4,000ybp. Also that I1a( quickly developed into I1a2) people where the first to settle Scandinavia 10,000-15,000ybp and modern Scandinavians are their descendants.

here is a link to where i got my info http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2013/04/hundreds-of-prehistoric-scandinavian.html

ElHorsto said:

Thats true, but they also were less affected by indo-europeans, who themselves were probably mostly paleolithic europeans, although from a different refuge probably and/or admixed with west_asian and maybe others. The map resembles the Saami component from Dodecad K3, which was the first run that has split the North_euro component into two components. I don't think the Saami component is the only paleolithic component, otherwise the separation of Lithuanians/Latvians and Finns/Estonians is hard to explain because they are actually very similar (cluster commonly in most runs, low Fst distance).

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i am sorry but i do not know that much about aust. DNA. i just found this map on the internet. I knew it meant Sami and Finnish are closest modern relatives to La Brana (7,000 year old hunter gather north Spain). I had no idea it was from the Dodecad K3 or that they had two serrate north euro components in K3 and that Sami have their own version which is what La brana( 7,000 year old hunter gather north Spain) had. At least it seems that is what u are saying.

So are u saying there are diff types of north euro in some types of Aust. DNA tests. Thanks for giving me information on where that map came from and what it is really showing.

Fire Haired said:

i am sorry but i do not know that much about aust. DNA. i just found this map on the internet. I knew it meant Sami and Finnish are closest modern relatives to La Brana (7,000 year old hunter gather north Spain). I had no idea it was from the Dodecad K3 or that they had two serrate north euro components in K3 and that Sami have their own version which is what La brana( 7,000 year old hunter gather north Spain) had. At least it seems that is what u are saying.

So are u saying there are diff types of north euro in some types of Aust. DNA tests. Thanks for giving me information on where that map came from and what it is really showing.

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Well, I was just remembering this old thread: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...from-Sweden-Super-Saami?highlight=super+saami
(scroll further down for the figure)

I have to correct myself: it was not DODECAD, but STRUCTURE v3, and that's not exactly the origin of that map, it just resembles the results, however. I don't remember where I have seen it first, will tell you if I remember.

regarding STRUCTURE v3:
The blue bars in the graph likely correspond to IEans, the red ones clearly correspond to Ajv52 Ajv70 samples from Gotland. It is ironic that at such a low resolution a split of the north_europ component happened, whereas higher order runs didn't, however.
Note how not Finns but rather Mordvins (Mr) (or Mari?) and Udmurts appear close to these neolithic swedsh hunter-gatherers. Finns have gotten more of the IEan component in this run, which is not too surprising because Finns have big local variations and a history of constant and slow population influx from the south into a different founder population.

When u say IEns do u mean Indo Europeans?

The swedish hunter gathers where 100% of the red bar so i guess their closest relatives on this chart are
1. Sam(probably Sami)
2. mr( maybe mordavien)
3.ud( maybe udmurt)
4. Km?????
5.Gbrang????????

Otzie and Gok4 seem to be very close and have alot more of the red bar than most people in Europe which makes them closer to the Swedish hunter gathers. Otzie and Gok4 seem close to alot of Europeans. what exactley does the red bar, blue bar, and green bar mean. I can tell this is not the same as aust. dna test where they give names like north euro or meditreaen.

THANK YOU for working on your punctuation, F.H. It's getting easier to follow your line of thinking.

Something else you may want to consider. Instead of fixating on I1a2, I1a1, I1...b4u812 (joking on the last one) you may want to switch over to the more accurate SNP systems. Z58, L22, Z140 are far more specific and more telling than the older method.

**EDIT**

Here's a little window into how this works...

We are all fishing for the truth. DNA testing is a fairly new development so we are all learning about our tribal journeys throughout history. So on this large scale fishing trip... the first STR tests could be likened to acquiring an on-board radar that gives you an indication of where the fish might be. (Kind of clumsy, but far better than nothing.)

As more and more SNP population results come back and the giant puzzle of humanity's travels starts coming together, using SNP results is going to be like fishing on a clear lake with a glass-bottom boat. No comparison really.

Fire Haired said:

When u say IEns do u mean Indo Europeans?

The swedish hunter gathers where 100% of the red bar so i guess their closest relatives on this chart are
1. Sam(probably Sami)
2. mr( maybe mordavien)
3.ud( maybe udmurt)
4. Km?????
5.Gbrang????????

Otzie and Gok4 seem to be very close and have alot more of the red bar than most people in Europe which makes them closer to the Swedish hunter gathers. Otzie and Gok4 seem close to alot of Europeans. what exactley does the red bar, blue bar, and green bar mean. I can tell this is not the same as aust. dna test where they give names like north euro or meditreaen.

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GBrang = Great Britain Argyle which = the gaelic push from ireland into west pictish lands in scotland

zanipolo said:

GBrang = Great Britain Argyle which = the gaelic push from ireland into west pictish lands in scotland

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thanks for the info

Fire Haired said:

When u say IEns do u mean Indo Europeans?

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Yes.

The swedish hunter gathers where 100% of the red bar so i guess their closest relatives on this chart are
1. Sam(probably Sami)
2. mr( maybe mordavien)
3.ud( maybe udmurt)

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Most likely yes.

4. Km?????
5.Gbrang????????

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I guess Km means Komi.

Otzie and Gok4 seem to be very close and have alot more of the red bar than most people in Europe which makes them closer to the Swedish hunter gathers. Otzie and Gok4 seem close to alot of Europeans. what exactley does the red bar, blue bar, and green bar mean. I can tell this is not the same as aust. dna test where they give names like north euro or meditreaen.

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I guess the red, blue and green just has not been given a name yet. And Ötzi and Gok4 have no blue, thus I guess it added up a little on the red bar instead. Don't know how exactly it works but if blue and red bars are not distant then some overlapping remnants of blue could have shifted more easily to the red bar in some specific cases.

ElHorsto said:

And Ötzi and Gok4 have no blue, thus I guess it added up a little on the red bar instead.

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It also can be that some atlantic_med (green) is included in the red bars of hunter autosomal. Then the analysis might have reversed the interpretaion by saying Ötzi has some Paleolithic admixture when actually it is the other way around.

Here are other great maps from the same guy (Loxias, done using GEDmatch).

ElHorsto said:

It also can be that some atlantic_med (green) is included in the red bars of hunter autosomal. Then the analysis might have reversed the interpretaion by saying Ötzi has some Paleolithic admixture when actually it is the other way around.

Here are other great maps from the same guy (Loxias, done using GEDmatch).

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Loxias..........in my opinion one of the best and most accurate plotters I have seen, I do not know how he does it.

I1 as per KenN in pommerania and Prussia .............are the goths baltic people?




Does artifacts mean anything?





what about Bromme culture, could that take a KenN I1 from prussia to denmark or was it too early?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromme_culture

I think I1a defintley came to Scandinavia 10,000-15,000 years ago because the kund Uralic culture from Siberia conquered Finland and northeast Europe 8,000 years ago the uralics where Mongoloid the native Finnish we know where European. Because we have their skeletal remains and some mtDNA. modern Finnish have about 30-40% Mongloid Y DNA N1c1 and 30-40% European I1a2c.

I1a2 is probably the native European Y DNA because There is no archaeological evidence a culture from Swedan migrating or conquered Uralic's in the last 8,000 years. also y DNA I1a2 is restricted to only Scandinavia and the only other areas in europe it is found outside of scandnavia are in areas Vikings raided. there is no Achieolgicakl evidence of a Neolithic or bronze age culture that existed in Swedan, Norway, and Finland so that means there is no way I1a2 L22 spread in Scandnavia in the last 10,000 years.

Since Scandinavian I1a2 L22 brothers I1a1 Df29, I1a3 Z58,and I1a4 Z63 are mainly found in Germany. i think the I1a DF29 migration into scandnavia from Germany through Denmark came 10,000-15,000ybp possibly Brommer and Ahrensburg cultures. but since these cultures existed over 11,000 years ago and we have only some remains that are probably 100's of years apart from each other we barley know what culture these people had. So how do we know it was people from eastern Germany that migrated to Scandinavia. Since Germany is literalley right under Scandinavia I1a Df29 defintley migrated out of Germany to Scandinavia at some point.

Fire Haired said:

I think I1a defintley came to Scandinavia 10,000-15,000 years ago because the kund Uralic culture from .

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Because of Ice Age there was no human settlement in Scandinavia before 9k years ago.

the oldest human remians in norway are 11,200 years old http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_islands_by_first_human_settlement
and almost all of Scandinavia was settled 8,000 years ago because siberian kunda culture conquered people who already lived there

we have 11 mtdna samples at the border of finland and Russia from 7,500ybp so there where people in finland just 1,500ybp after first humans arrived in Scandinavia I think u are confused with 9,000 bc which is really 11,000 years ago.

7 had Caucasian U, four had U4 which is most popular in modern Europe but i dont know if it originated in Europe, two had U2e which specifically european 37,985ybp mtdna from far western european russia had U2, one had specifically european U5a two 31,155 year old mtdna from Czech republic had U5 which originated in Europe over 50,000 years ago,

two had Mongoloid C1 which is most popular in Siberia today,

one had Caucasin mtDNA H which originated around the south caucus and Iraq about 40,000-50,000 years ago two 25,000 year old H17 samples where found in european Russia, one 28,000 year old H sample was found in far south italy.

what this shows is people in Finland 7,500ybp where european and descended from people who came to Europe over 40,000 years ago aka Cro Magnon, but there was some Mongoloid Siberian influence that probably came from Uralics.

i but 10,000-15,000ybp just to be safe i know they probably first came 10,000-11,00ybp.

Fire Haired said:

one had Caucasin mtDNA H which originated around the south caucus and Iraq about 40,000-50,000 years ago two 25,000 year old H17 samples where found in european Russia, one 28,000 year old H sample was found in far south italy.

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You've repeated these claims several places, but they're both doubtful. The "28,000 year old H" is from Caramelli 2008, which did not conclusively determine a haplogroup, it only found some markers in common with HV and U (see Jean Manco). Similarly, the "25,000 year old H17" is from Alexeeva 2000, which was disputed as contamination per Ovchinnikov and Goodwin 2003, and only had one rare HVR1 mutation to go off of.

Fire Haired said:

the oldest human remians in norway are 11,200 years old http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_islands_by_first_human_settlement
and almost all of Scandinavia was settled 8,000 years ago because siberian kunda culture conquered people who already lived there

i but 10,000-15,000ybp just to be safe i know they probably first came 10,000-11,00ybp.

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Sorry, I didn't have time to check my writing, it is 9,000 BC, time from last Ice age snap called Younger Dryas.