Where did E-V13 originate ?

There has been quite enough hijacking of this thread. One infraction has already been issued for posting off topic material. This is not an Albanian language thread or an Albanian genetics thread. From now on, every single off topic posting will result in an infraction. I will also delete the posts.

I've also issued an infraction for provocative behavior. I will issue more if that behavior continues as well.

Take this stuff to the Balkanian disagreements thread so other people don't have to read this nonsense and serious genetics threads aren't ruined.
 
More interesting insight on the origins of E-V13

The Mesolithic E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 foragers


Several theories about the origin of E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 and its spread have been proposed, and all are, in a certain way, linked to the Neolithic farmers. Early studies suggested that the mutation was brought to the Balkans together with early farming technologies (Semino et al., 2004). Battaglia et al. (2009) proposed an earlier arrival of this lineage in Europe (during the late Mesolithic period), followed by its Neolithic dispersal into Europe with the spread of farming. Most recently, King et al. (2011) suggested that E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 may trace the demographic and socio-cultural impact of Greek colonization.
Researchers still debate the fate and interplay between pioneering farmers from the Near East and local Mesolithic societies and search for the clearest signal of their interaction. However, the phylogeography and temporal evidence supports the idea that E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 arose in Southern Europe, with peak frequencies among the Albanians and Greeks (Semino et al., 2004) and with declining patterns towards the north. The lack of any plausible Middle Eastern source of E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 during the Early Neolithic or Bronze Age, together with the low STR variation observed in the Middle East, additionally bolsters this view (Battaglia et al., 2009; King et al., 2008).
We support the scenario proposed by Battaglia et al. (2009) and additionally strengthened by two recent studies that the Mediterranean route has had a pronounced role in the spread of farming (Lacan et al., 2011b; Paschoua et al., 2014) and that local South European populations adopted the new technology through their contact with Near Eastern migrants and spread it further into the European area. The high diversity of the E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 obtained in this study supports the cultural diffusion theory that the clade originated in the neighboring area of Southern Europe and spread only after populations adopted farming from Near Eastern pioneers using leapfrog colonization in the Aegean/Adriatic (Richards, 2003; Forenbaher and Miracle, 2005). Lacan et al. (2011b) and Paschoua et al. (2014) also concluded that the Mediterranean route had even greater influence on the peopling of Southern Europe during the Neolithic transition than the Central European one, based on autosomal, mitochondrial and Y chromosome DNA analysis, giving even more importance to this lineage.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876

Seems like past papers are far from being obsolete in regards to the subject
 
More interesting insight on the origins of E-V13

The Mesolithic E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 foragers


Several theories about the origin of E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 and its spread have been proposed, and all are, in a certain way, linked to the Neolithic farmers. Early studies suggested that the mutation was brought to the Balkans together with early farming technologies (Semino et al., 2004). Battaglia et al. (2009) proposed an earlier arrival of this lineage in Europe (during the late Mesolithic period), followed by its Neolithic dispersal into Europe with the spread of farming. Most recently, King et al. (2011) suggested that E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 may trace the demographic and socio-cultural impact of Greek colonization.
Researchers still debate the fate and interplay between pioneering farmers from the Near East and local Mesolithic societies and search for the clearest signal of their interaction. However, the phylogeography and temporal evidence supports the idea that E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 arose in Southern Europe, with peak frequencies among the Albanians and Greeks (Semino et al., 2004) and with declining patterns towards the north. The lack of any plausible Middle Eastern source of E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 during the Early Neolithic or Bronze Age, together with the low STR variation observed in the Middle East, additionally bolsters this view (Battaglia et al., 2009; King et al., 2008).
We support the scenario proposed by Battaglia et al. (2009) and additionally strengthened by two recent studies that the Mediterranean route has had a pronounced role in the spread of farming (Lacan et al., 2011b; Paschoua et al., 2014) and that local South European populations adopted the new technology through their contact with Near Eastern migrants and spread it further into the European area. The high diversity of the E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 obtained in this study supports the cultural diffusion theory that the clade originated in the neighboring area of Southern Europe and spread only after populations adopted farming from Near Eastern pioneers using leapfrog colonization in the Aegean/Adriatic (Richards, 2003; Forenbaher and Miracle, 2005). Lacan et al. (2011b) and Paschoua et al. (2014) also concluded that the Mediterranean route had even greater influence on the peopling of Southern Europe during the Neolithic transition than the Central European one, based on autosomal, mitochondrial and Y chromosome DNA analysis, giving even more importance to this lineage.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876

Seems like past papers are far from being obsolete in regards to the subject

They were on the right track, and all the naysayers have been proven wrong now that we've found related clades of E-V13 in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East.

Interesting that it got so lucky in Europe but the related clades are such a minority where they originally flourished.

I think Dienekes was right to point out that the expansion was in the Bronze Age, and I think it had something to do with the Greeks, so we can add Boattini et al to the mix of those who got it right, and who said that specific clade was rather late in Italy, and probably a good part of it was connected to Greek migrations. Another proof that some assertions I've seen lately that there is no Greek input into Italy are off the mark.

The Boattini papers look even better with the passage of time:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)?highlight=Boattini

Almost all the "E" in northern Italy is E-V13 related except for one strange founder effect. It's a big chunk of the "E" in southern Italy as well. (Strange paucity of E-M81 as well, rather down playing the role of the Moorish invasions in that area.)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29842-southern-Italian-paper-2014?highlight=Boattini

I do still wonder when all the E-V13 in southern Germany and the Tyrol arrived, and from where. There's no record of actual Greek migration there.
 
I do still wonder when all the E-V13 in southern Germany and the Tyrol arrived, and from where. There's no record of actual Greek migration there.

Good question, and also the Scandinavian average of 3%. There was no known Roman settlements there. Maybe one day we get a clearer hint of how it got there.
 
They were on the right track, and all the naysayers have been proven wrong now that we've found related clades of E-V13 in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East.

Interesting that it got so lucky in Europe but the related clades are such a minority where they originally flourished.

I think Dienekes was right to point out that the expansion was in the Bronze Age, and I think it had something to do with the Greeks, so we can add Boattini et al to the mix of those who got it right, and who said that specific clade was rather late in Italy, and probably a good part of it was connected to Greek migrations. Another proof that some assertions I've seen lately that there is no Greek input into Italy are off the mark.

The Boattini papers look even better with the passage of time:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)?highlight=Boattini

Almost all the "E" in northern Italy is E-V13 related except for one strange founder effect. It's a big chunk of the "E" in southern Italy as well. (Strange paucity of E-M81 as well, rather down playing the role of the Moorish invasions in that area.)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29842-southern-Italian-paper-2014?highlight=Boattini

I do still wonder when all the E-V13 in southern Germany and the Tyrol arrived, and from where. There's no record of actual Greek migration there.

TRMCA of E-V13 is 4.3 ka which is 600-700 years before the arrival of the Mycenians in Greece
so there may have been some of them among the Mycenians, hence the E-V13 in S Italy
some others must have arrived elsewhere and then to Tyrol or s Germany
the Mycenians had swords and chariotts and horse bits when they arrived in Greece ca 1650 BC
short before that the same gear arrived in the Carpathian Basin, coming from the western Pontic steppe
so I guess E-V13 4.3 ka was somewhere in the western Pontic steppe
remember 4.3 ka E-V13 was not a population, it was just 1 single male ancestor of all E-V13
ca 3.3 ka most of the western steppe population were ousted by the Cimmerians (Srubnaya people coming from further east)

I think this is a scenario that could explain todays E-V13 distribution
 
I would have thought E-V13 was more likely to have been in Greece when the Mycenaneans arrived, and then absorbed by them, and the TMRCA would allow for that, wouldn't it?

Or if not Greece itself, perhaps in Cucuteni-Tripolyte? How would it have gotten all the way to the steppe?
 
In Northern Albanian areas.
 
I would have thought E-V13 was more likely to have been in Greece when the Mycenaneans arrived, and then absorbed by them, and the TMRCA would allow for that, wouldn't it?

Or if not Greece itself, perhaps in Cucuteni-Tripolyte? How would it have gotten all the way to the steppe?

Cucuteni is another possibility.
The steppe maybe as a trader along the Black Sea shores.
Allready 5 ka there was trade between Aegean and Black Sea.
The spread from Greece would not explain how far north some E-V13 got.
The starting point for E-V13 seems to me somewhere northeast of Greece.

Also strange : some E-618 bloke, ancestral to E-V13 made it to Latvia

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/
 
TRMCA of E-V13 is 4.3 ka which is 600-700 years before the arrival of the Mycenians in Greece
so there may have been some of them among the Mycenians, hence the E-V13 in S Italy
some others must have arrived elsewhere and then to Tyrol or s Germany
the Mycenians had swords and chariotts and horse bits when they arrived in Greece ca 1650 BC
short before that the same gear arrived in the Carpathian Basin, coming from the western Pontic steppe
so I guess E-V13 4.3 ka was somewhere in the western Pontic steppe
remember 4.3 ka E-V13 was not a population, it was just 1 single male ancestor of all E-V13
ca 3.3 ka most of the western steppe population were ousted by the Cimmerians (Srubnaya people coming from further east)

I think this is a scenario that could explain todays E-V13 distribution

I read once, that E-V13 was ONE of the Hittite markers , along with R1b and others

I do not recall it in northern Italy or southern Germany in greater numbers than the other E of E-L117
 
TRMCA of E-V13 is 4.3 ka which is 600-700 years before the arrival of the Mycenians in Greece
so there may have been some of them among the Mycenians, hence the E-V13 in S Italy
some others must have arrived elsewhere and then to Tyrol or s Germany
the Mycenians had swords and chariotts and horse bits when they arrived in Greece ca 1650 BC
short before that the same gear arrived in the Carpathian Basin, coming from the western Pontic steppe
so I guess E-V13 4.3 ka was somewhere in the western Pontic steppe
remember 4.3 ka E-V13 was not a population, it was just 1 single male ancestor of all E-V13
ca 3.3 ka most of the western steppe population were ousted by the Cimmerians (Srubnaya people coming from further east)

I think this is a scenario that could explain todays E-V13 distribution

Yes, it can be true. G2a is lineage which we can see in Neolithic sites throughout Europe.

E-V13 in Europe is in Bronze age. It could come from Anatolia and one logical direction is over the Caucasus and steppe. Your argumentation can explain E-V13 as minor haplogroup in many Central and North European nations, including Slavic people. This means that E-V13 have been brought with Indo-Europeans in Europe as part of IE expansion.

Of course part E-V13 could come from Anatolia to Europe via sea, and probably today's E-V13 carriers in Greece, and it is possible in Southern Italy and Malta are from this population. But main part of E-V13 in Europe probably came with Indo-Europeans and in way how you argue.
 
Just so we can visualize it, this is the Eupedia map for E-V13. I may be wrong, but it doesn't look to me like the major spread is from the steppe Indo-Europeans moving from east to west from the steppe across central Europe, for example, and then down into southern Europe. It wouldn't explain Spain for one thing. It looks like a migration into Cyprus, then Crete, then mainland Greece, then the rest of the Balkans ( a founder effect perhaps in Albania), and then a diffusion from there. The spread around the Crimea and Russia could very well be related to all the Greek trading colonies along the Black Sea in the first millennium BC. The higher levels in Aegean Turkey seem to me like back migration because of the Greek settlements there. In Italy it looks to me like Magna Graecia in the south (Boattini et al placed it around 300 BC), with perhaps additional movement later on from the Balkans into especially the east coast of Italy. Ralph and Coop pointed out in their IBD analysis that they believed the only significant IBD sharing of Italy with other areas in the last millenium or two was with the Balkans. The hot spots in Liguria and Venice could be explained by trade or other contacts with Greece, of which there were many. In southern France we had Massalia.




Haplogroup-E-V13.gif
 
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I've also included a map of Greek trading areas around the Black Sea. They date from the eighth to the third century BC.

108.jpg


The other maps are of the distribution of J2b. I've often heard it said it matches E-V13, but I think there are some major differences. Bicicleur, if you read this, what is the TMRCA for that? In the second map the J2b is the bottom part of the graphic.

Haplogroup-J2b.gif


http://www.nature.com/article-asset.../srep19157/images_hires/w926/srep19157-f1.jpg
 
It seemed like E1b1b was brought by the Natufians and then developed locally to E-V13. Especially if we consider its distribution in the Middle East, among who seems to be Kurds.
 
Just so we can visualize it, this is the Eupedia map for E-V13. I may be wrong, but it doesn't look to me like the major spread is from the steppe Indo-Europeans moving from east to west from the steppe across central Europe, for example, and then down into southern Europe. It wouldn't explain Spain for one thing. It looks like a migration into Cyprus, then Crete, then mainland Greece, then the rest of the Balkans ( a founder effect perhaps in Albania), and then a diffusion from there. The spread around the Crimea and Russia could very well be related to all the Greek trading colonies along the Black Sea in the first millennium BC. The higher levels in Aegean Turkey seem to me like back migration because of the Greek settlements there. In Italy it looks to me like Magna Graecia in the south (Boattini et al placed it around 300 BC), with perhaps additional movement later on from the Balkans into especially the east coast of Italy. Ralph and Coop pointed out in their IBD analysis that they believed the only significant IBD sharing of Italy with other areas in the last millenium or two was with the Balkans. The hot spots in Liguria and Venice could be explained by trade or other contacts with Greece, of which there were many. In southern France we had Massalia.




Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

This distribution shows that Bicicleur is right.

E-V13 is spread with IE invasion as minor lineage among Indo-Europeans.

No chance that Russians, Belarusians, Slovaks, Czechs, Poles etc. could have E-V13 if E-V13 only spread over Greek colonies in Black sea. It would be limited to coastal areas, not so far to the west and north. Even Scandinavians have E-V13.
 
I've also included a map of Greek trading areas around the Black Sea. They date from the eighth to the third century BC.

108.jpg


The other maps are of the distribution of J2b. I've often heard it said it matches E-V13, but I think there are some major differences. Bicicleur, if you read this, what is the TMRCA for that? In the second map the J2b is the bottom part of the graphic.

Haplogroup-J2b.gif


http://www.nature.com/article-asset.../srep19157/images_hires/w926/srep19157-f1.jpg

In the Balkans and Europe J2b is overwhelmingly represented by J2b2-L283. Its TMRCA is 5900 ybp, but its main expansion started ca. 4400 ybp with main subclade J-Z597:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

This is pretty much the same TMRCA as E-V13 and they also have very similar distributions. However, I wouldn't connect much of the expansion of E-V13 with the ancient Greek world.
IMO, both of these (E-V13 and J2b2-L283) expanded ca. 4400 ybp out of northern Balkans (Danube area), but of course ancient DNA may tell us something else some day.
 
I've also included a map of Greek trading areas around the Black Sea. They date from the eighth to the third century BC.

108.jpg


The other maps are of the distribution of J2b. I've often heard it said it matches E-V13, but I think there are some major differences. Bicicleur, if you read this, what is the TMRCA for that? In the second map the J2b is the bottom part of the graphic.

Haplogroup-J2b.gif


http://www.nature.com/article-asset.../srep19157/images_hires/w926/srep19157-f1.jpg

TRMCA for J2b is old enough, 15.8 ka. But I don't know what are the J2b subclades in the Balkan.
Furthermore J2b is not found in any European anciant DNA, so I guess it arrived relatively late in Europe or in a confined area.

P.S. Trojet says here above :
In the Balkans and Europe J2b is overwhelmingly represented by J2b2-L283. Its TMRCA is 5900 ybp, but its main expansion started ca. 4400 ybp with main subclade J-Z597:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

He hints at the expansion of the subclade J-Z597 whose TRMCA is similar to the TRMCA of E-V13 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z597/

People from the steppe arrived in Spain while on the run for the Huns.
Look at this map of the migrations of the Alans during 4th-5th century AD

Alani_map.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

the Alans were a Scyth tribe

another possibility is that some E-V13 spread from the Carpathian Basin after 3.7 ka when people from the steppe arrived there
the Urnfield originated ca 3.3 ka in the Carpathian Basin but that didn't go any further than Catalunia

UrnfieldCulture.jpg


I guess there are just to many possibilities to explain the distribution of E-V13, even taking ino account the very late 4.3 ka TRMCA
the problem is to little is known about the distribution of the subclades of E-V13
 
TRMCA for J2b is old enough, 15.8 ka. But I don't know what are the J2b subclades in the Balkan.
Furthermore J2b is not found in any European anciant DNA, so I guess it arrived relatively late in Europe or in a confined area.

People from the steppe arrived in Spain while on the run for the Huns.
Look at this map of the migrations of the Alans during 4th-5th century AD

Alani_map.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

the Alans were a Scyth tribe

another possibility is that some E-V13 spread from the Carpathian Basin after 3.7 ka when people from the steppe arrived there
the Urnfield originated ca 3.3 ka in the Carpathian Basin but that didn't go any further than Catalunia

I do agree that J2b-M102 mutation is way too old to have anything informative. In addition it likely originated in the Near East.
But when it comes to Balkans/Europe, I already explained which J2b subclade is present and oldest by diversity there (J2b2-L283). Here it is again since it seems you have missed it:

In the Balkans and Europe J2b is overwhelmingly represented by J2b2-L283. Its TMRCA is 5900 ybp, but its main expansion started ca. 4400 ybp with main subclade J-Z597:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

This is pretty much the same TMRCA as E-V13 and they also have very similar distributions. However, I wouldn't connect much of the expansion of E-V13 with the ancient Greek world.
IMO, both of these (E-V13 and J2b2-L283) expanded ca. 4400 ybp out of northern Balkans (Danube area), but of course ancient DNA may tell us something else some day.
 
In the Balkans and Europe J2b is overwhelmingly represented by J2b2-L283. Its TMRCA is 5900 ybp, but its main expansion started ca. 4400 ybp with main subclade J-Z597:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

This is pretty much the same TMRCA as E-V13 and they also have very similar distributions. However, I wouldn't connect much of the expansion of E-V13 with the ancient Greek world.
IMO, both of these (E-V13 and J2b2-L283) expanded ca. 4400 ybp out of northern Balkans (Danube area), but of course ancient DNA may tell us something else some day.

Well, that's certainly a better alternative for E-V13 than out of the Pontic-Caspian steppe, in my opinion, which wouldn't explain the particular hot spots of E-V13 in Spain for example. Also, based on IBD there is very little Alan or other barbarian invasion dna in Spain. (post fall of Rome) Neither does it explain the E-V13 in Italy for the most part, or the hot spot around Marseilles. Indeed, Boattini dated E-V13 in Italy to around 300 BC.

The issue of where it originated, if in Europe, and from whence it first spread, are both separate from a discussion as to whether is spread in the first millennium with Greek colonization. I could see it arising in more northern areas of the Balkans than Greek proper given where we found that ancient sample of a related clade in Sopot.

Even as long ago as Cavalli Sforza it's been clear that there's been an out of Greece or at least out of the Balkans expansion autosomally.


Along with ancient dna, we need detailed subclade analysis on the level of that for R1b and R1a.
cavalli-sforza.png
 

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