Magna Graecia

ihype02 said:
The fact that "Mycenaean-like" cluster survived from 700BC to 300BC in Campania (till the period they were conquered) in a sea of Italian people similar to Iberia, shows how "racist" and endogamous old Greeks were. Pureness of blood in ethnically diverse places like Athens would be you an advantage in life. Athens was an Ionic supremacist city state.
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it just show they were isolated
the upcoming paper greek cluster -is based on samples from
pithekoussai
that is this island
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ischia

p.s
usually populations in islands are more isolated genetically speaking
you might have a point though that they felt superior to others because of there advanced culture :unsure:
 
kingjohn said:
it just show they were isolated
the upcoming paper greek cluster -is based on samples from
pithekoussai
that is this island
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ischia

p.s
usually populations in islands are more isolated genetically speaking
you might have a point though that they felt superior to others because of there advanced culture :unsure:
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Most Greek cities of Campania are very close to Pithekoussai. I think we will see Italic admixture after 300BC.

An acropolis site of the Monte Vico area was inhabited from the Bronze Age, as Mycenaean and Iron Age pottery findings attest. Euboean Greeks from Eretria and Chalcis arrived in the 8th century BC to establish an emporium for trade with the Etruscans of the mainland. This settlement was home to a mixed population of Greeks, Etruscans, and Phoenicians. Because of its fine harbor and the safety from raids afforded by the sea, the settlement of Pithecusae became successful through trade in iron and with mainland Italy; in 700 BC Pithecusae was home to 5,000–10,000 people.[12]

If there was one mixed city free Greek city of pre-300BC Campania this one should have been on top of the list.
 
ihype02 said:
Most Greek cities of Campania are very close to Pithekoussai. I think we will see Italic admixture after 300BC.

An acropolis site of the Monte Vico area was inhabited from the Bronze Age, as Mycenaean and Iron Age pottery findings attest. Euboean Greeks from Eretria and Chalcis arrived in the 8th century BC to establish an emporium for trade with the Etruscans of the mainland. This settlement was home to a mixed population of Greeks, Etruscans, and Phoenicians. Because of its fine harbor and the safety from raids afforded by the sea, the settlement of Pithecusae became successful through trade in iron and with mainland Italy; in 700 BC Pithecusae was home to 5,000–10,000 people.[12]

If there is one mixed city free Greek city of pre-300BC Campania this one should have been on top of the list.
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to bad this paper is only have 1 sample from this island
that is not enough to draw big conclusions :upset:
also chance for e-v13 to show up is not high with only 1 sample ( and not sure it is even a male)
we know j2 for sure was present among the ancient greeks from previews papers
 
I was the one who pointed out that in Athens even non-Athenians had fewer rights, and the children of mixed couples did not have equal rights to the "pure" born. That doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Furthermore, divisions that existed pre the Roman conquest don't tell us anything about subsequent mixings. It's been more than 2000 years since these colonies were founded, more than enough time for the population to become relatively homogeneous, especially since the entire south of Italy was under one government, even if under different guises, since the fall of the Roman Empire.

Even the Anatolian Neolithic farmers who went to Europe and the WHG mingled eventually, even if it took a thousand years.

I'm afraid you're going to have to accept that the Greeks had a big influence in Southern Italy, despite your bias against them and their accomplishments.
 
Angela said:
I was the one who pointed out that in Athens even non-Athenians had fewer rights, and the children of mixed couples did not have equal rights to the "pure" born. That doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Furthermore, divisions that existed pre the Roman conquest don't tell us anything about subsequent mixings. It's been more than 2000 years since these colonies were founded, more than enough time for the population to become relatively homogeneous, especially since the entire south of Italy was under one government, even if under different guises, since the fall of the Roman Empire.

Even the Anatolian Neolithic farmers who went to Europe and the WHG mingled eventually, even if it took a thousand years.

I'm afraid you're going to have to accept that the Greeks had a big influence in Southern Italy, despite your bias against them and their accomplishments.
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I said free Ancient Greek cities were (likely) isolated from other Native Italians until they lost their freedom and that is until 300BC. Even though I have heard about some Greeks in Sicily taking Sicilian wifes). I don't know how does that correlate with Iron Age Greek influence being big or not.
They had to be mixed sooner or later after they adopted Latin and lost control.

I know that one Ancient Greek city adopted Latin during 200BC that is before Imperial Rome.

Your reading comprehension skills are not my issue. Sorry not sorry.
 
Maybe the recent immigrants did not take local wives but I can see the second and third generation choosing not to go back to Greece for their brides. The colonies were almost always male dominated in the early days with families coming later.
 
bigsnake49 said:
Maybe the recent immigrants did not take local wives but I can see the second and third generation choosing not to go back to Greece for their brides. The colonies were almost always male dominated in the early days with families coming later.
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Some of them did take some native women, imo, but most of them did not. If the 2 samples are an indicator then they are fairly distant in time so changes should've happen.
 
ihype02 said:
I said free Ancient Greek cities were (likely) isolated from other Native Italians until they lost their freedom and that is until 300BC. Even though I have heard about some Greeks in Sicily taking Sicilian wifes). I don't know how does that correlate with Iron Age Greek influence being big or not.
They had to be mixed sooner or later after they adopted Latin and lost control.

I know that one Ancient Greek city adopted Latin during 200BC that is before Imperial Rome

Your reading comprehension skills are not my issue. Sorry not sorry.
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We'll have to wait and see for the paper to come out for anything definitive, but to the best of my recollection, the data "leaked", if accurate, does show "admixed" people. As I said in relation to the Athenians, the fact that children with non-Greeks might not have the same rights as the Greek father doesn't mean that such children weren't produced.

You fill this site with so much nonsense about the amount of "Slavic" in Greeks, the paucity of Greek input into Southern Italy and on and on that it's hard to keep track. Even some of your own fellow Albanians are finding it embarrassing.

So long as your biases are so obvious, and your logic so thin, no one is going to take your interpretations seriously.

As to your rude comment, coming from someone who can't write the English language properly, leading to numerous cases where you have to explain your meaning, and in numerous instances has shown he can't understand perfectly clear posts written here, that's pretty silly. Fwiw, I've spent my professional life, which is probably longer than you've been alive, reading and writing law, and I assure you my record is as good in that arena as it has been in population genetics.

FWI, the use of the word "Sorry", when you're going to disagree with someone equates to "Sorry I'm going to have to burst your bubble", or "Sorry I have to say this", not "I'M SORRY".
 
Angela said:
We'll have to wait and see for the paper to come out for anything definitive, but to the best of my recollection, the data "leaked", if accurate, does show "admixed" people. As I said in relation to the Athenians, the fact that children with non-Greeks might not have the same rights as the Greek father doesn't mean that such children weren't produced.

You fill this site with so much nonsense about the amount of "Slavic" in Greeks, the paucity of Greek input into Southern Italy and on and on that it's hard to keep track. Even some of your own fellow Albanians are finding it embarrassing.

So long as your biases are so obvious, and your logic so thin, no one is going to take your interpretations seriously.

As to your rude comment, coming from someone who can't write the English language properly, leading to numerous cases where you have to explain your meaning, and in numerous instances has shown he can't understand perfectly clear posts written here, that's pretty silly. Fwiw, I've spent my professional life, which is probably longer than you've been alive, reading and writing law, and I assure you my record is as good in that arena as it has been in population genetics.

FWI, the use of the word "Sorry", when you're going to disagree with someone equates to "Sorry I'm going to have to burst your bubble", or "Sorry I have to say this", not "I'M SORRY".
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Sorry not sorry is a slang.

My theories about the Slavic input in Serbs, Croats and Bulgarians that I wrote years ago are now largely proven. Someone even told me that they consider 40% Slavic in Serbs a very high estimate, can't remember who it was.

About the Slavic input in Greece, which I believe you are referring to the comment I made about Thessaly. I know that Thessaly had a large Aromanian presence, and besides that there were Albanians, Venetians, Goths, and medieval Anatolians that were settled from Konya from 10/11th century AD. Of course that 38% North Slavic that I modelled several days ago is ridiculous but some of you will beg for that 38% Slavic back, years later.

I have never written about paucity of Greek colonists in Southern Italy. I challenge you to find one quote of me saying it so.

There is the Pompeii study that is likely going to show what I have been theorizing about the Southern Italian cluster being formed from new Roman migrants (from Middle East) which you accuse me having an agenda for not attributing it as just Greek+Italian (and everything else is little) Iron and Neolithic age romantic ideas.

If they have samples from ~80BC of Oscans in Pompeii, it is going to show a dramatic shift to from Iron Age Campanian-like to Imperial Roman-like. There are even some outliers plotting as Cypriots, which Davidski has seen.

Calling it an agenda does not make it any less true.
 
ihype02 said:
Sorry not sorry is a slang.

My theories about the Slavic input in Serbs, Croats and Bulgarians that I wrote years ago are now largely proven. Someone even told me that they consider 40% Slavic in Serbs a very high estimate, can't remember who it was.

About the Slavic input in Greece, which I believe you are referring to the comment I made about Thessaly. I know that Thessaly had a large Aromanian presence, and besides that there were Albanians, Venetians, Goths, and medieval Anatolians that were settled from Konya from 10/11th century AD. Of course that 38% North Slavic that I modelled several days ago is ridiculous but some of you will beg for that 38% Slavic back, years later.

I have never written about paucity of Greek colonists in Southern Italy. I challenge you to find one quote of me saying it so.

There is the Pompeii study that is likely going to show what I have been theorizing about the Southern Italian cluster being formed from new Roman migrants (from Middle East) which you accuse me having an agenda for not attributing it as just Greek+Italian (and everything else is little) Iron and Neolithic age romantic ideas.

If they have samples from ~80BC of Oscans in Pompeii, it is going to show a dramatic shift to from Iron Age Campanian-like to Imperial Roman-like. There are even some outliers plotting as Cypriots, which Davidski has seen.

Calling it an agenda does not make it any less true.
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We find a pulse of extra CHG throughout the entire Mediterranean, from the Aegean all the way to south eastern Spain; it has been confirmed to come to Sardinia and Sicily in the Bronze age. Are you suggesting that it coming to Southern Italy is a "romantic idea"? Why?


To me, people who only focus on the possibility of it coming from Imperial age immigrants, are just using some suggestions from recent papers as confirmation bias and circular thinking to vindicate 19th and early 20th century Roman historians. Come on, don't tell me you are not one of those guys who takes the written word of historians as gospel despite archaeogenetic research proving otherwise; I know you are based on past posts. Please stop ignoring all of the possibilities, so we can have a true discussion.
 
Jovialis said:
If we listened to Roman historians, we would think they came from Troy, in Anatolia. We know this was an intentional fabrication.
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Well, they weren't completely wrong, since the Latins were mostly Anatolia_N. They were off on the time and cultural group.

v0hnph0.png
 
The Latins, Etruscans, Mycenaeans, and South Eastern Iberians, must be modeled as a modeled as both Steppe, and Iran_N included as the modeling that fits best. That is because the people prior in those regions were all Anatolia_N+Iran related, like the Minoans were. Anatolia_N+Iran_N is the backbone of the Mediterranean genetic continuum.
 
Jovialis said:
The Latins, Etruscans, Mycenaeans, and South Eastern Iberians, must be modeled as a modeled as both Steppe, and Iran_N included as the modeling that fits best. That is because the people prior in those regions were all Anatolia_N+Iran related, like the Minoans were. Anatolia_N+Iran_N is the backbone of the Mediterranean genetic continuum.
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k8lyWAK.png

ZURyWYB.png


The Minoans fall in a similar range as the one I circled for what I speculate is pre-Italic southern Italy.
 
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