Serb with I1

Which facts? There is no any single country in Europe where I1 is in majority.

Even in Scandinavian countries R1 (combined R1a and R1b) is more numerous than I1.

The highest number of I - but in this case mostly I2, not I1 - is in the Balkans.

Obviously I (both I2 and I1) belongs to pre-Indo-European folks of Europe. But so do few other haplogroups.

In general there is scarcity of data on prehistoric Y-DNA, very small samples. There is more data on mtDNA but it is harder to interpret.

I compiled data on ancient Y-DNA from two websites (Eupedia and Ancestral Journeys), and it still looks quite miserable:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnaintro.shtml

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/ancient_european_dna.shtml

a_DNA_Samples.png


As you can see scarcity of data can lead to wrong conclusions.

For example we know that I haplogroup did not disappear from Europe after the Bronze Age, even though this chart suggests this.

I wonder what was that F* from the Neolithic period - ancestor of which haplogroup or haplogroups?

F is ancestral to G, H, I, J, K (any of these could split from those Neolithic F*s, right?). K is ancestral to R1, but also to several other HGs.

=====================================

Obviously apart from I haplogroup, also for example G haplogroup in Europe is pre-Indo-European:

Haplogroup_G2a.gif




Early Proto-Germanic peoples did not live in Scandinavia, but migrated to Scandinavia.

Scholars argue whether we can talk about Germanic language before migration to Scandinavia, or did it emerge in Scandinavia.

Anyway - Germanic is clearly an Indo-European language, despite its large number of loanwords from pre-Indo-European substrate. Vocabulary is not everything - for example English is counted as a Germanic language, even though it has a lot of words from Latin, French and other languages.

So people who brought Indo-European ancestral language of Germanic to Europe (including Scandinavia), were not of I1 haplogroup.

I1 belonged to pre-Indo-European communities of - mostly - hunter-gatherers. So did I2.



I am sure that Hungarian, Estonian, Finnish, Turkish and several other Non-IE languages of Europe also have more Non-IE words. ;)



Yes they are but isn't this due to their historically warlike attitude and assimilation of a lot of Non-Germans?

BTW - when I wrote about Germanic I wrote about all Germanic-speakers, not just Germans.

Of course I1 haplogroup is most numerous in Scandinavia, not in actual Deutschland.
Thank you I never understand why Serbs and Bosnians claim to be their Viking descendants based on I numbers I am partly English so I am not just I, I am I S24 Saxon that's the subclade of I that makes it Paleolithic
 
Almost all Serbian I1 are Z63 and P109.

Z63 come with Goths and Gepids in 5th and 6th century, and P109 is from Normans which tried to conquer Balkan in the late 11th century led by Robert Guiscard [video]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Guiscard#Against_the_Byzantines[/video]
 
I am a Serb with I1-M227 result. I found on the Internet that M227 could have been spread by Varangians. Does anyone know something about Varangians in the Balkans, specifically in the medieval Serbia. When did they could get here?

Some also say that we could be from Goths or Herules. Which theory is more likely?

I know that M227 has three subgroups - A11380, Y19809 and Y7213. Are there some information about them, because I couldn't find anything.


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Interesting, I1-M227 seems very rare on the Balkans, I know only of one Romanian on 23andMe.
It looks spread more in Eastern and Central Europe than in Scandinavia. Probably the Viking theory is coming from several I1-M227 found in the Middle east.
 
Serbian holders of I1 [video]https://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=I1[/video]

Branches of I1 which exist among Serbs are P109, Z63, M227 and M253.

I1 haplogroup is around 9% among ethnic Serbs, which is the highest percentage of all Balkan nations.

Vast majority of Serbs which are I1 are from Dinaric Alps or originated from Dinaric Alps.
Serbian tribe Drobnjaci (I1-P109) and Macure (I1-Z63) are from Dinaric Alps, and almost all of Serbs who belongs to these branches are from Drobnjaci and Macure tribe.
 
Interesting, I1-M227 seems very rare on the Balkans, I know only of one Romanian on 23andMe.
It looks spread more in Eastern and Central Europe than in Scandinavia. Probably the Viking theory is coming from several I1-M227 found in the Middle east.
Yes, it is very rare, currently we make about 0.5% in our serbian project.
I didn't know about M227 in the Middle East, can you please tell me where to find that information?
Thanks for the Romanian. I don't know of any M227 in the Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria and Greece, so it would be great if someone knows and wants to share.

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M227 is only around 5% of all I1 which were tested on "Serbian DNA project."
 
M227 is only around 5% of all I1 which were tested on "Serbian DNA project."

As far as I can see the M227 in the Serbian project are only predicted, and due to the small amount of tested markers could be some other branch as I1 is prone to homoplasmy.

For example, there is a 12 markers Ivanovich in the Serbian project under M227, who is an exact match to the Bulgarian E8047. However, the Bulgarian has an extensive SNP testing and is proven M227-, in fact he is Z58+, Z59-, Z139+, A6397+

Ser 13 22 14 10 14-15 11 14 11 13 11 29
Bul 13 22 14 10 14-15 11 14 11 13 11 29

You can find Middle East Palestinian M227, for example on the YFULL tree, there are others in different I1 projects.
 
As far as I can see the M227 in the Serbian project are only predicted, and due to the small amount of tested markers could be some other branch as I1 is prone to homoplasmy.

For example, there is a 12 markers Ivanovich in the Serbian project under M227, who is an exact match to the Bulgarian E8047. However, the Bulgarian has an extensive SNP testing and is proven M227-, in fact he is Z58+, Z59-, Z139+, A6397+

Ser 13 22 14 10 14-15 11 14 11 13 11 29
Bul 13 22 14 10 14-15 11 14 11 13 11 29

You can find Middle East Palestinian M227, for example on the YFULL tree, there are others in different I1 projects.

There are 8 people which are I1-M227 at "Serbian DNA project"

Ђенадић (Đenadić) - Aleksandrovac/central Serbia
Остојић (Ostojić) - Takovo/Šumadija/central Serbia
Миленковић (Milenković) - Kuršumlija/central Serbia
Драча (Drača) - Benkovac/Dalmatia
Крунић (Krunić) - Valjevo/western Serbia
Бојовић (Bojović) - Tutin/southwestern Serbia
Ивановић (Ivanović) - Zvornik/eastern Bosnia
Живковић (Živković) - Šabac/northwestern Serbia

Look here [video]https://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=I1[/video]

The total number of I1 at "Serbian DNA project" is 146 and 8 is M227, which means that M227 is 5,5% of Serbian I1.
 
I know that in Poreklo only those who have something in the field SNP with + are actually tested for it. None of those under M227 seems to be tested , so you can't be sure they are under this branch.
 
I know that in Poreklo only those who have something in the field SNP with + are actually tested for it. None of those under M227 seems to be tested , so you can't be sure they are under this branch.

This is the percentage of I1 among Serbs by regions [video]www.macure.net/Content/Images/Genetika/I1-Srbi.jpg[/video]

Which is the percentage of I1 in Bulgaria or among Bulgarians, and which branches are common?
 
As far as I can see the M227 in the Serbian project are only predicted, and due to the small amount of tested markers could be some other branch as I1 is prone to homoplasmy. For example, there is a 12 markers Ivanovich in the Serbian project under M227, who is an exact match to the Bulgarian E8047. However, the Bulgarian has an extensive SNP testing and is proven M227-, in fact he is Z58+, Z59-, Z139+, A6397+ Ser 13 22 14 10 14-15 11 14 11 13 11 29 Bul 13 22 14 10 14-15 11 14 11 13 11 29
That's true, but I also have an exact match on 19 markers with a person from Croatia who is proven M227+, so it's very likely that I am M227.
There are 8 people which are I1-M227 at "Serbian DNA project" Ђенадић (Đenadić) - Aleksandrovac/central Serbia Остојић (Ostojić) - Takovo/Šumadija/central Serbia Миленковић (Milenković) - Kuršumlija/central Serbia Драча (Drača) - Benkovac/Dalmatia Крунић (Krunić) - Valjevo/western Serbia Бојовић (Bojović) - Tutin/southwestern Serbia Ивановић (Ivanović) - Zvornik/eastern Bosnia Живковић (Živković) - Šabac/northwestern Serbia Look here [video]https://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=I1[/video] The total number of I1 at "Serbian DNA project" is 146 and 8 is M227, which means that M227 is 5,5% of Serbian I1.
I am one of those with the result on 23 markers. With all of them I have a genetic distance of no more than 2 on 23, or with others an exact match on 12 markers. There is also Duraković - Prijepolje/southwestern Serbia (genetic distance of 2 on 23, "Bosnian DNK project"), and one person from Bosnia and Herzegovina only with his first name Ivan (an exact match on 12 markers, found on some ftdna projects). I heard that there is Končar - Končarev kraj/Lika/Croatia who is M227+ from 23andMe. I would like to contact him, Ivan (kit no. 314690) and M227+ person from Croatia (kit no. 41100), but I don't know how.
 
As far as I can see the M227 in the Serbian project are only predicted, and due to the small amount of tested markers could be some other branch as I1 is prone to homoplasmy. For example, there is a 12 markers Ivanovich in the Serbian project under M227, who is an exact match to the Bulgarian E8047. However, the Bulgarian has an extensive SNP testing and is proven M227-, in fact he is Z58+, Z59-, Z139+, A6397+ Ser 13 22 14 10 14-15 11 14 11 13 11 29 Bul 13 22 14 10 14-15 11 14 11 13 11 29
That's true, but I also have match on 19 markers with a person from Croatia who is proven M227+, so it's very likely that I am M227 also.
There are 8 people which are I1-M227 at "Serbian DNA project" Ђенадић (Đenadić) - Aleksandrovac/central Serbia Остојић (Ostojić) - Takovo/Šumadija/central Serbia Миленковић (Milenković) - Kuršumlija/central Serbia Драча (Drača) - Benkovac/Dalmatia Крунић (Krunić) - Valjevo/western Serbia Бојовић (Bojović) - Tutin/southwestern Serbia Ивановић (Ivanović) - Zvornik/eastern Bosnia Живковић (Živković) - Šabac/northwestern Serbia
I am one of them (with 23 markers). There are also Duraković - Prijepolje/southwestern Serbia (21/23 match, "Bosnian DNA project"), one person from Bosnia and Herzegovina with only his first name Ivan (12/12 match, ftdna kit no. 314690) and Končar - Končarev kraj/Lika who is M227+ from 23andMe.
I would like to contact Ivan, Končar and the M227+ person from Croatia (ftdna kit no. 41100) but I don't know how.
 
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Almost all Serbian I1 are Z63 and P109.

Z63 come with Goths and Gepids in 5th and 6th century, and P109 is from Normans which tried to conquer Balkan in the late 11th century led by Robert Guiscard [video]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Guiscard#Against_the_Byzantines[/video]
Really? Ostrogoths were East Germanic that is Baltic, East Germanics are in some East and South Germans if anything and maybe Central Europeans..

I numbers are just usually Paleolithic. During SNP results to determine haplogroups they will give you your own person subclade this is how a test result should go like

[h=2]I-S2361: Your Genetic Signature[/h][COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.7)][FONT=&quot]This is your Y chromosome genetic signature: a list of all the markers from the chromo2 chip for which you are positive, that is where you differ from Y chromosome Adam. A plus sign indicates that you carry the marker, or as geneticists say you are derived for that marker, e.g. S190+. Markers are named with a letter followed by the number of the marker. The letter is usually one of M, S or P: M is for markers, S is for SNP (the scientific name of the kind of marker being tested) and P is for polymorphism, another word for marker. Other prefixes include the initials of the discoverer (e.g. CTS or PF). If you do not carry the marker it is not listed in your signature, but can be found in the raw data file. In a few cases a marker might arise, for example, by the DNA letter A changing to C, then much later in time in someone with the C it changes back to an A again; this is called back-mutation. One such example is the marker S163: if you carry the ancestral A it is not shown in your signature. If you carry the C, it would be shown as S163(+) and if you carry the back-mutated A, it is shown as S163!. We can tell the back-mutations from the ancestral variants using the other markers you carry.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.7)][FONT=&quot]>CTS10100+, CTS11150+, CTS11575+, CTS11976+, CTS11991+, CTS12057+, CTS12633+, CTS12773+, CTS12861+, CTS2254+, CTS2392+, CTS2480+, CTS2569+, CTS3315+, CTS3326+, CTS3654+, CTS3818+, CTS3844+, CTS3859+, CTS3918+, CTS4293+, CTS4568+, CTS4740+, CTS5139(+), CTS5248+, CTS543+, CTS5650+, CTS616+, CTS6327+, CTS6331+, CTS6376+, CTS6383+, CTS6433+, CTS6445+, CTS674+, CTS7301+, CTS7593+, CTS7762+, CTS7922+, CTS8449+, CTS8876+, CTS9139+, CTS9183+, CTS9482+, CTS9556+, CTS9760+, CTS9782+, L1002+, L1013+, L1053+, L1084+, L1098+, L1105+, L1118+, L1123+, L1129+, L1130+, L1137+, L1143+, L1145+, L1150+, L1179+, L1198+, L1220+, L132+, L181+, L34+, L352+, L35+, L37+, L438+, L440+, L468+, L470+, L498+, L508+, L543+, L59+, L604+, L800+, L882+, L969+, M213+, M223+, M235+, M258+, M294+, M299+, M429+, M42+, M523+, P123+, P126+, P127+, P129+, P130+, P135+, P139+, P140+, P141+, P142+, P143+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P163+, P212+, P305+, PAGE081+, PF1030+, PF1067+, PF1081+, PF1252+, PF1253+, PF1416+, PF1695+, PF1911+, PF256+, PF2590+, PF2592+, PF2615+, PF2617+, PF2619+, PF2621+, PF2622+, PF2624+, PF2626+, PF2629+, PF2640+, PF2651+, PF2653+, PF2655+, PF2658+, PF2660+, PF2677+, PF2679+, PF2683+, PF2684+, PF2685+, PF2688+, PF2690+, PF2700+, PF2702+, PF2704+, PF2709+, PF2716+, PF2718+, PF2722+, PF2734+, PF2736+, PF2737+, PF2739+, PF2742+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2760+, PF2762+, PF2775+, PF3495+, PF3500+, PF3528+, PF3553+, PF3644+, PF3649+, PF3654+, PF3706+, PF3739+, PF3753+, PF3787+, PF3807+, PF3819+, PF626+, PF643+, PF653+, PF679+, PF6895+, PF733+, PF744+, PF825(+), PF834+, PF869+, PF948+, S10441+, S10459+, S11022+, S11330(+), S117+, S118+, S119+, S120+, S12350+, S12547(+), S138+, S14170+, S1572+, S163(+), S1984!, S19862(+), S2006+, S20315+, S2357+, S2358+, S2360+, S2361+, S2363+, S2365+, S2367+, S2368+, S2369+, S2371+, S2378+, S2380+, S2381+, S2384+, S2385+, S238+, S2390+, S2412+, S2425+, S2441+, S24436+, S2445+, S2450+, S2452+, S2456+, S2458+, S2465+, S2471+, S2472+, S2476+, S2478+, S2479+, S24+, S30+, S31+, S32+, S330+, S33+, S390+, S4888!, S5810+, S5817+, S5818+, S5874+, S5875+, S5878+, S5893+, S6378+, S6459+, S6469+, S6498+, S6517+, S6520+, S6527+, S6528+, S8111+, S8235+, S884+, S9158+, S959+, SRY10831(+), V102+, V126+, V168+, V186+, V187+, V218+, V221+, V226+, V241+, V29+, V41+, V52+, V9+, YSC1297+, YSC1311+, Z161+, Z162+, Z164+, Z169+, Z175+, Z179+, Z183+[/FONT][/COLOR]
 
So if that's true some Serbians and Croatians are getting a tad confused they're not Viking descendants they're Baltid ones lol these ones with I numbers
 
Maybe I1* came from the Balkans(Late Paleolithic) and spread northward to Scandinavia during the Mesolithic(or later) when it became inhabitable. After all, there is still a lot of similarities between Nordids and Dinarids physically.
Yes that's easily possible, exactly thank you.
 
Which is the percentage of I1 in Bulgaria or among Bulgarians, and which branches are common?

Officially I1 is around 4% among Bulgarians. It seems the most common branches are under Z58, or the old Anglo-Saxon assignment. They are common also among Bulgarian Turks. However we have many P109 and Z63, too. According to me the P109 may have some North Western Bulgarian connection, while the Z63 - Macedonian. Current haplogroup distribution among Bulgarians is not very indicative where the forefathers came from due to the constant migrations in Ottoman times and refugee resettlements after the Balkan wars.
SNP M227 was discovered early in haplogroup I1 history, but it was rare in commercial databases as predominantly Westerners tested. So it may really be not so exotic among Serbs, if there are several proven, there could be more.
The Bulgarian DNA project helped solve the classification another early discovered SNP- P259, which at one time was decided to be private and removed from the tree. Later it was proven to be among the Roma/Gypsy founding lineages and some Bulgarians and ex-Yugoslavians have it, too.
After a Bulgarian Roma was sponsored for the Big Y test, it was discovered he is I-Z141, but negative to all branches below. Where exactly P259 stand on the tree is still unknown, though. Obviously it was a private SNP once, but spread due to the large founder effect among Roma.
 
Can you guys help me with my GED match results
 
Thank you for the Bulgarian info. Of the 4% who are I1, do you have a breakdown of how many are Z63, Z58, etc?

Do you know which branches of Z63 are the most common?

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thanks guys, these are my final results from 23andm me anyways:


















99.8%

European



Southern European

65.8% Balkan



0.5% Italian



8.1% Broadly Southern European






16.3% Eastern European





Northern European

0.1% French & German



3.9% Broadly Northern European





5.1% Broadly European






0.2% East Asian & Native American
Did you do GED match? Try that
 
Origin of Serbian I1-Z63 is still unclear. Maybe came with Slavs, maybe with Goths or Gepids.

Serbian I1-P109 is from Normans whithout doubt.
All Serbian P109 are from Drobnjaci tribe [video]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drobnjaci[/video]
Serbian holders of P109 from Drobnaci tribe are close to some Sicilian guy who is P109, they are around 900-950 years genetically distant from him.
Which means that Sicilians guy and Serbian holders of P109 are descendant of Normans which settled in Sicily and southern Italy and in the late 11th century they tried to invade Balkans.
 

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