Central and South Asian DNA Paper

R1b-dates of 15 various samples.


1) Villabruna (Italia), Epigravettian, 12 200-11 800 BC
[h=3]2)I5235, I5237, Mesolithic, 9500-6200 BCE-Iron Gates[/h][h=3]3)I1734, Mesolithic, 9000-7000 BCE-Ukraine[/h][h=3]4)SC1_Meso, SC2_Meso, I5411Mesolithic, 7000-6500 BC-Iron Gates[/h][h=3]5)OC1_Meso, I5408, Mesolithic, 7000-5000 calBCE-Iron Gates[/h][h=3]6) I4916 Mesolithic, 7300-6000 BCE-Iron Gates[/h][FONT=fira_sansbold]7) I5772, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 7100-5900 BCE-Iron Gates
[/FONT]
[h=3]8)I5232, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 6224-5841 calBCE-Iron Gates[/h]9)Hajji Fieuz(Iran) 5900-5500 BCE-Azerbijian
10)HG2, Zvejnieki (Latvia), 5841-5636 cal BC -Latvia
11)I0124, EHG, Lebyazhinka IV (Russia), 5640-5555 calBCE-Russia
12)HG3, Zvejnieki (Latvia), 5302-4852 cal BC-Latvia
13)ATP3, El Portalón (Spain), 5466-5312 calBP I0371-Spain
14)I0122, Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara (Russia), 5200-4000 BCE-Russia
15)I1593, Blatterhole Cave (Germany), 3958-3344 calBCE I1594,-Germany
 
It's a great paper, very extensive. Most of the results are what I expected.

- BMAC was a mixture of J2a (main haplogroup), G2a, L1a, Q1b and R2a, just as I had predicted.

- R1b went south from the Caspian Steppe across Central Asia and settled in Turan/BMAC. Nowadays R1b is far higher than Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and northern Afghanistan (Hazaras).

- R1a-Z93 went south from southern Siberia along the Tianshan to reach Pakistan and India. Once again that is expected as the R1a-Z93 concentration today are much higher along the Tianshan (Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, eastern Afghanistan). What I don't understand is why this paper insists on separating the admixture of those R1a-Z93 people and calling them 'West Siberian HG related' when they in fact originated in the northern forest-steppe of Europe (around Belarus and northern Ukraine).


Here are a few things no one could expect:

- E1b1a1a1c2b1 (aka Z6005) in Mesolithic Iran (12,000 to 8,000 BCE), a Sub-Saharan African clade now found mostly in the far western end of Africa (Gambia, Sierra Leone). Hunter-gatherers did travel a long way... Y-Full says that its parent clade CTS6649 formed 9600 ybp and has a TMRCA of only 6700 ybp, so that is a gross underestimation as it had time to travel over 7000 km and be in Iran about 12,000 years ago.

- E1b1a1a1c2c3c, another SSA lineage, and plenty of Y-DNA A, BT and CT in the BMAC during the Bronze Age. The A, BT and CT could be early Homo sapiens lineages that died out, but why again West African Y-DNA in Central Asia?

- Surprisingly lots of (Levantine?) E1b1b1b2 with also some A0, CT, DE and E in Early Iron Age northern Pakistan. Was there a massive Natufian migration to the region in the Early Neolithic? Or is that more Paleolithic or Mesolithic African hunter-gatherers?

- I2a2a2a in Neolithic Turkmenistan (5000-2000 BCE). Is that an offshoot of a Neolithic culture of Old Europe, a Mesolithic European tribe that ended up in Central Asia, or an early Steppe invader?

- As mentioned before, Mal'ta can't be R1b1a1a2 and it's extremely suspicious to find a Nordic Bronze Age clade of R1b-U106 (S21728, downstream of Z9) in Iron Age Pakistan. Either it's a typo or that sample was contaminated.


please people wait for the finale version this a pre-print
one the mesolitic e1b1a is wierd as hell must be a mistake
while e1b1b1 in bmac people and iron age pakistan could be logical given the time frame of those samples .....
chad rolfson from anthrogenica ask one of the authours of this paper to check the dna haplogroups table again ......
 
The followings should be reviewed later as rebuttal against Harvard genetics, b/c genetics is still on early stage not an universal medication at all.

Narasimhan_et_al_Fig_4_Tale.png

1. As mentioned, karzakstan eneolithic genes are very important to explain the relationship between yamna and afanasievo. Moreover botai, sintashta and andronovo culture is said to belong to east Ural culture, surtanda culture.

2. Could gracile yamna skull produce the bellbeaker skull, which is very close to cromagnon? I really don’t think so.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13563-Ancient-DNA-upends-the-horse-family-tree/page2 (post 13)

3. Could yamana and CWC culture be related with sintasha? The CWC has nothing to do with horse, CWC’s skull cannot produce paleotype sintshta skull.
Their burial type(B) is supine burial type, and their horse is genetically proved to be arctic horse like east scythian.
gr1.jpg


4. As I mentioned several times, I don’t think the 1st gracile yamna and sintashta type cannot produce source population of andronovo ferodova, 2nd pamir type to be connected to Aryan.



Think about the fact that PHD scholar should say like this at 2013, "not proving but plausible". why did he say that, not connecting to existing samples by statics like the other scholars?
That is why it is very important to have y dna of eneolithic karzak people, who have a brachy large skull of UP to produce any type of people, being easily changed to proto-caucasoid and proto-mongoloid by just a one drop, b/c they are intermediate, I think.

The origin of the Andronovo variant of the Proto-European trait combination appears to be the least disputable. Its wide distribution was evidently associated with the spread of the Andronovo (Fedorovka) culture from a single area. Because admixture seldom if ever results in the decrease of the facial height (Bunak, 1980), very low faces of the Andronovo people support the idea that this population originated in a single region, and that isolation was the major factor in its origin (Alekseyev, 1961). While the idea that the ancestors of the Andronovo (Fedorovka) people lived in Kazakhstan before the Middle Bronze Age (Ibid.) appears plausible, it cannot be supported by available data at present.

Culturally, they were associated with Afanesyev, Timbergrave (Srubnaya), and Tazabagyab cultures, with the Andronovo (Alakul) culture of western Kazakhstan, and with the Sintashta-like culture of Potapovka. Morphologically, this cluster is intermediate between the “Andronovo proper” (Proto-European) cluster and the “Mediterranean” cluster. Accordingly, the “intermediate” cluster includes both Proto-European and Mediterranean series.

THE ORIGINS OF THE ANDRONOVO (FEDOROVKA) POPULATION OF SOUTHWESTERN SIBERIA, BASED ON A MIDDLE BRONZE AGE CRANIAL SERIES FROM THE ALTAI FOREST-STEPPE ZONE
 
The followings should be reviewed later as rebuttal against Harvard genetics, b/c genetics is still on early stage not an universal medication at all.


1. As mentioned, karzakstan eneolithic genes are very important to explain the relationship between yamna and afanasievo. Moreover botai, sintashta and andronovo culture is said to belong to east Ural culture, surtanda culture.

2. Could gracile yamna skull produce the bellbeaker skull, which is very close to cromagnon? I really don’t think so.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13563-Ancient-DNA-upends-the-horse-family-tree/page2 (post 13)

3. Could yamana and CWC culture be related with sintasha? The CWC has nothing to do with horse, CWC’s skull cannot produce paleotype sintshta skull.
Their burial type(B) is supine burial type, and their horse is genetically proved to be arctic horse like east scythian.

4. As I mentioned several times, I don’t think the 1st gracile yamna and sintashta type cannot produce source population of andronovo ferodova, 2nd pamir type to be connected to Aryan.



Think about the fact that PHD scholar should say like this at 2013, "not proving but plausible". why did he say that, not connecting to existing samples by statics like the other scholars?
That is why it is very important to have y dna of eneolithic karzak people, who have a brachy large skull of UP to produce any type of people, being easily changed to proto-caucasoid and proto-mongoloid by just a one drop, b/c they are intermediate, I think.


I wouldn't rely too much on cranial shapes as these can change quickly when two populations merge with each other, and a lot of diversity is generally found within a single population. For example Yamna skulls could be brachycephalic, mesocephalic and dolichocephalic. Bell Beakers weren't even a single ethnic group.
 
I used to give R1a the benefit of the doubt, but no R1a in Chalcolithic and Bronze Age Iran is a very strong indication that R1a is not even Indoeuropean.
R1a-Z93 only gained some relevance in IE Asia thousands of years after the spread of Indo-Iranian, Baltoslav(e)s must have picked up the IE language from their Scythian masters. R1b-M269 and J2 are the major IE markers.
wixAFlq.jpg

You don't get to t-roll Slavs or any other nationalities here. You already got an infraction. Keep this stuff up and you'll be out of here very soon.

@Johen,
You want to take issue with a genetics paper? Argue the genetics. Stop with this kind of nonsense.
 
R1b-dates of 15 various samples.


1) Villabruna (Italia), Epigravettian, 12 200-11 800 BC
2)I5235, I5237, Mesolithic, 9500-6200 BCE-Iron Gates

3)I1734, Mesolithic, 9000-7000 BCE-Ukraine

4)SC1_Meso, SC2_Meso, I5411Mesolithic, 7000-6500 BC-Iron Gates

5)OC1_Meso, I5408, Mesolithic, 7000-5000 calBCE-Iron Gates

6) I4916 Mesolithic, 7300-6000 BCE-Iron Gates

[FONT=fira_sansbold]7) I5772, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 7100-5900 BCE-Iron Gates
[/FONT]
8)I5232, Mesolithic-Neolithic, 6224-5841 calBCE-Iron Gates

9)Hajji Fieuz(Iran) 5900-5500 BCE-Azerbijian
10)HG2, Zvejnieki (Latvia), 5841-5636 cal BC -Latvia
11)I0124, EHG, Lebyazhinka IV (Russia), 5640-5555 calBCE-Russia
12)HG3, Zvejnieki (Latvia), 5302-4852 cal BC-Latvia
13)ATP3, El Portalón (Spain), 5466-5312 calBP I0371-Spain
14)I0122, Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara (Russia), 5200-4000 BCE-Russia
15)I1593, Blatterhole Cave (Germany), 3958-3344 calBCE I1594,-Germany

I can be quite misleading for newcomers to see such a list as it doesn't include subclades. It's hard to see how these related to one another with clades and without a phylogenetic tree like this one to see where the samples fit.

R1b-tree.png
 
I used to give R1a the benefit of the doubt, but no R1a in Chalcolithic and Bronze Age Iran is a very strong indication that R1a is not even Indoeuropean.
R1a-Z93 only gained some relevance in IE Asia thousands of years after the spread of Indo-Iranian, Baltoslav(e)s must have picked up the IE language from their Scythian masters. R1b-M269 and J2 are the major IE markers.
wixAFlq.jpg


This is exactly why I am reluctant to define Proto-Indo-European solely as the group of R1b-M269 and J2b2a people who lived in the Central and South Caucasus between, say, 5800 and 5200 BCE.

Some people think that it's better than the Pontic-Caspian Steppe as a PIE homeland because it could be made to include the archaic Anatolian branch. But we don't know anything about the genetics of the Anatolian branch, and in any case the Hittites, Luwians and Lydians don't show up until about 1650 BCE, with horses, chariots and what is in fact more of a Middle Bronze Age Steppe cultural package. I think that the archaic traits of that branch can be explained either by some sort of isolation from other PIE groups within the Steppe (e.g. early migration to the Balkans from 4200 BCE or to Turan from 3500 to 4000 BCE) or by a hydrisation of their language with non-IE languages.

It's nonsense to reject the whole R1a branch as Indo-European, as they correlates extremely well with Baltic, Slavic, Indo-Aryan and Iranian branches of IE languages.

That is why I keep firm on my grounds and insist on defining PIE as the language that emerged in either during the Yamna or Khvalynsk culture, by the merger of Caucasian R1b-M269 and J2b2-L283 with the indigenous I2a2a-L701, R1a and old clades of R1b (L297, L388, etc.).
 
From Anhrogenica Chad Rohlfsen:

There is also going to be a C14 done on the Hajji Firuz R1b. Results should be back in the next couple of weeks.
 
Here are a few things no one could expect:

- E1b1a1a1c2b1 (aka Z6005) in Mesolithic Iran (12,000 to 8,000 BCE), a Sub-Saharan African clade now found mostly in the far western end of Africa (Gambia, Sierra Leone). Hunter-gatherers did travel a long way... Y-Full says that its parent clade CTS6649 formed 9600 ybp and has a TMRCA of only 6700 ybp, so that is a gross underestimation as it had time to travel over 7000 km and be in Iran about 12,000 years ago.

- E1b1a1a1c2c3c, another SSA lineage, and plenty of Y-DNA A, BT and CT in the BMAC during the Bronze Age. The A, BT and CT could be early Homo sapiens lineages that died out, but why again West African Y-DNA in Central Asia?

- Surprisingly lots of (Levantine?) E1b1b1b2 with also some A0, CT, DE and E in Early Iron Age northern Pakistan. Was there a massive Natufian migration to the region in the Early Neolithic? Or is that more Paleolithic or Mesolithic African hunter-gatherers?

- I2a2a2a in Neolithic Turkmenistan (5000-2000 BCE). Is that an offshoot of a Neolithic culture of Old Europe, a Mesolithic European tribe that ended up in Central Asia, or an early Steppe invader?

- As mentioned before, Mal'ta can't be R1b1a1a2 and it's extremely suspicious to find a Nordic Bronze Age clade of R1b-U106 (S21728, downstream of Z9) in Iron Age Pakistan. Either it's a typo or that sample was contaminated.

surprises, or does this cast doubt about some of the Y-DNA results in this paper ?
 
From Anhrogenica Chad Rohlfsen:

There is also going to be a C14 done on the Hajji Firuz R1b. Results should be back in the next couple of weeks.

Calls have been checked. He is R1b- m269- L23 - and Z2103. And buried with the others that have been dated. So, slim to none chances he is a steppe warrior traveling in time from 3000 years later.
... And citing Chad, a kid still at school completly fanatic steppe yamnaya center of the universe....pfuuf.
 
I can be quite misleading for newcomers to see such a list as it doesn't include subclades. It's hard to see how these related to one another with clades and without a phylogenetic tree like this one to see where the samples fit.

R1b-tree.png

Irrespective of what branch of R1b the 14 of the 15 would fall into, all from oldest 14,000YBP+/- to 5958YBP+/-(with the exception of 1 sample)are found in the territory of modern day Europe. Also all plot between WHG & EHG & SHG & ANE on a global pca.

pca2-mathieson.png
 
surprises, or does this cast doubt about some of the Y-DNA results in this paper ?

True. But the one on everyone's mind really is a R1b Z2103 by his calls already been checked. So...get use to it.
 
Irrespective of what branch of R1b the 14 of the 15 would fall into, all from oldest 14,000YBP+/- to 5958YBP+/-(with the exception of 1 sample)are found in the territory of modern day Europe. Also all plot between WHG & EHG & SHG & ANE on a global pca.

That's because the overwhelming majority of ancient DNA tested came from Europe, and because there were already lots of old and mostly extinct branches of R1b in Central and Eastern Europe from the Late Glacial period to the Mesolithic. Where are you going with that?
 
Calls have been checked. He is R1b- m269- L23 - and Z2103. And buried with the others that have been dated. So, slim to none chances he is a steppe warrior traveling in time from 3000 years later.
... And citing Chad, a kid still at school completly fanatic steppe yamnaya center of the universe....pfuuf.

Add to that that he is autosomally similar to the others in the same context, I believe he is legitimate.
 
Irrespective of what branch of R1b the 14 of the 15 would fall into, all from oldest 14,000YBP+/- to 5958YBP+/-(with the exception of 1 sample)are found in the territory of modern day Europe. Also all plot between WHG & EHG & SHG & ANE on a global pca.
pca2-mathieson.png
In 15K years those r1b were everywhere!!
So its meaningless. Everybody is looking for M269, L23, L51.... And that guy in Hajji Firuz really breaks it all. Specially because of his links to Shulaveri in georgia...
 
That's because the overwhelming majority of ancient DNA tested came from Europe, and because there were already lots of old and mostly extinct branches of R1b in Central and Eastern Europe from the Late Glacial period to the Mesolithic. Where are you going with that?
Yes the forum is called Eupedia right? The 14/15 oldest R1b samples are from Europe. At one time people thought R1b-V88 came from Africa, and R1b-L51 originated from Egypt to Morroco[no joke]. I'm just pointing out factual data. We actually have no data from the huge amount of Kurgans{not one tested from the Yamnaya-region in Hungary-estimates depending on some 40,000+)and or Italy which also has some very interesting R1b branches including the oldest sample to date.
 
True. But the one on everyone's mind really is a R1b Z2103 by his calls already been checked. So...get use to it.

I wasn't mentioning this one, there are others which are doubtfull, most the R1b-M269 in Mal'ta but also the E1b1a..
 
Calls have been checked. He is R1b- m269- L23 - and Z2103. And buried with the others that have been dated. So, slim to none chances he is a steppe warrior traveling in time from 3000 years later.
... And citing Chad, a kid still at school completly fanatic steppe yamnaya center of the universe....pfuuf.

was the same done with the other samples? malta boy?
we also have no contemporary male samples from the steppe it seems and also nothing from georgia or aserbaidschan. so i don't see how one sample from north western iran can lead to the conclusion that ie spread from iran.
 
surprises, or does this cast doubt about some of the Y-DNA results in this paper ?

From what I understand, the lead author used some automated system which they plan to publish in the final paper. Obviously, there are bugs in it.

If I had to guess, and that's all it is, some of these samples are probably degraded or there was a one-off private mutation, and so something like one call on a mutation by an automated program should be ignored. That may explain the weird result for Mal'ta and the E1b1a results.


As for the Z2103 in Neolithic Iran, that doesn't seem to be the case. It looks legit. The only way to discount it would be the dating of it. Given how important it is, radio carbon dating is probably a good idea. However, it would be very odd if a sample buried with two J2b in an undisturbed grave, and matching the two J2b in being only a mix farmers was somehow a steppe person from thousands of years later.

That's sort of where I am with that sample. Time will tell, though.

I think we also have to consider those 3000 additional ancient samples in the Reich Lab but not yet published. I don't think it's unreasonable to propose that some may be from Maykop, or other areas in now Georgia/Armenia/ or Iran.

I highly doubt he would base a hypothesis on one sample.

What I find more intriguing, as I said above, is the lack of R1a. Are they saving that for another paper, when they will also reveal the yDna of the "Siberian Hunter-Gatherers" and perhaps draw the line to specific groups within the Andronovo horizon, now we know there was structure there?

Or, is some of this ambiguity due to the apparent breakdown in cooperation with the Indian scientists, perhaps leading to them being unable to use certain samples, and thus trying to come to the right conclusion without the best samples?
 
Yes the forum is called Eupedia right? The 14/15 oldest R1b samples are from Europe. At one time people thought R1b-V88 came from Africa, and R1b-L51 originated from Egypt to Morroco[no joke]. I'm just pointing out factual data. We actually have no data from the huge amount of Kurgans{not one tested from the Yamnaya-region in Hungary-estimates depending on some 40,000+)and or Italy which also has some very interesting R1b branches including the oldest sample to date.

Well, if you started with these beliefs, then I understand how you can find it interesting...
 

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