Genetic Changes on the East European Plain from Stone Age to Bronze Age

In eastern Europe we have two kinds of EHG. The ones that lived in the northern part were more ANE than WHG ( EHG is a mix between ANE and WHG). The ones that lived in the pontic steppe and in the westernmost part of southern Russia were more WHG shifted. The latter were the EHG that became the PIE.
There is no "Unknown" HG in Anatolia. They were Villabruna like IMHO.
Correct.

EHG= WHG+ANE+LAKE BAIKAL (almost full of east asian)
WSHG= EHG+ANE+EAST ASIAN = WHG +ANE+EAST ASIAN
So the two are same people archaeologically and anthropologically.

What I was trying to post is the fact that the WSHG has steppe component.
I think this is a very important fact:
When Damgaard paper about ancient lake baikal was published, people think that the lake baikal people were mongols. Because the paper said lake baikal people was replaced by east asian.
The problem is anthro data: the lake baikal people has paleo skull like american indian, not mongoloids.

I think the same thing happened in west siberia and central asia. CWC, sintashta and andronovo have similar gene admixtures enough to think of migration from west to east. However, their skull shape pattern is opposite. Moving to east, skull shape becomes close to broad-face paleo type.

So I guess that steppe component reached west siberia/central asia before neolithic age. Actually Iran farmer has already anatolia gene around 7,000.bc.
 
The admixture for Western Russia HG are shown above in the graphic.

Dzudzuana makes more and more sense to me as the base to be used in these things.

I don't get it. above in the graphic are the models for the genetic clusters connected with caucasian/ iranian population. Dzudzuana has nothing to do directly with WeRuHG. We still do not know exactly which is the precise component of the non EHG part of steppe ancestry. It is related with CHG but still it seems is not true CHG. Bottom line is that this CHG like ancestry is not responsible for PIE. Which expanded with EHG/WHG Y lines. Now that we know that the pontic steppe was inhabited by a mixed WHG/EHG population it looks like game over.
 
I don't get it. above in the graphic are the models for the genetic clusters connected with caucasian/ iranian population. Dzudzuana has nothing to do directly with WeRuHG. We still do not know exactly which is the precise component of the non EHG part of steppe ancestry. It is related with CHG but still it seems is not true CHG. Bottom line is that this CHG like ancestry is not responsible for PIE. Which expanded with EHG/WHG Y lines. Now that we know that the pontic steppe was inhabited by a mixed WHG/EHG population it looks like game over.
[h=2]25,000 year-old Sample from the Caucasus with Basal Eurasian Ancestry[/h]
We used outgroup f3-statistics to quantify the amount of shared genetic drift between SAT29 and other ancient genomes (Patterson et al., 2012). SAT29 shares more drift with Villabruna (Italy, 12140±70 bp) (Fu et al., 2016) and Dzudzuana2 than with other ancient individuals (Figure S3A), including the post-LGM individuals from the Caucasus (Satsurblia and Kotias). Among present-day Eurasian populations, SAT29 shows higher genetic affinity to Northern and Western Europeans rather than Central and Southern Asians (Figure S3

We estimate 1% Neanderthal ancestry in the SAT29 sample, although with large uncertainty due to the low amount of data (95% confidence intervals: 0-6.6%). This point estimate is similar to that of Dzuzuana2 and likely lower than that of Palaeolithic Europeans due to dilution from Basal Eurasian ancestry (Lazaridis et al., 2018)

CHG- an ancient region connected genetically with Villabruna and area with wagons, wagon burials, wine, metallurgy, domesticated sheep, and horses.
 
Correct.

EHG= WHG+ANE+LAKE BAIKAL (almost full of east asian)
WSHG= EHG+ANE+EAST ASIAN = WHG +ANE+EAST ASIAN
So the two are same people archaeologically and anthropologically.

What I was trying to post is the fact that the WSHG has steppe component.
I think this is a very important fact:
When Damgaard paper about ancient lake baikal was published, people think that the lake baikal people were mongols. Because the paper said lake baikal people was replaced by east asian.
The problem is anthro data: the lake baikal people has paleo skull like american indian, not mongoloids.

I think the same thing happened in west siberia and central asia. CWC, sintashta and andronovo have similar gene admixtures enough to think of migration from west to east. However, their skull shape pattern is opposite. Moving to east, skull shape becomes close to broad-face paleo type.

So I guess that steppe component reached west siberia/central asia before neolithic age. Actually Iran farmer has already anatolia gene around 7,000.bc.

Johen, I fear you are making your own definition of what/who is EHG... the Baikal element was, I think, a slight part of EHG, not the core, by far.
To me it seems typical CWC have different physical features than the most of Andronovo, even if they share a good chunk of same components at the basis. BTW, Andronovo, as a cultural concept, contains some variations in its population composition, according t places and crossings at the margins with WSHG.
Concernng shapes, broad faces - at lest at the cheekbones level was a common thing among almost all European and Eurasian HG's. If something happened, it would be rather a narrowing of faces among CWC, perhaps an exaggerated effect of crossings with farmers elements (an hypothesis). What hapened is rather a narrowing on the westward way than a broadening on the eastward way...
Just my opinion for what it is worth.
 
One more time we see the relativeness of admixtures estimates, according to studies.
 
I don't get it. above in the graphic are the models for the genetic clusters connected with caucasian/ iranian population. Dzudzuana has nothing to do directly with WeRuHG. We still do not know exactly which is the precise component of the non EHG part of steppe ancestry. It is related with CHG but still it seems is not true CHG. Bottom line is that this CHG like ancestry is not responsible for PIE. Which expanded with EHG/WHG Y lines. Now that we know that the pontic steppe was inhabited by a mixed WHG/EHG population it looks like game over.

Perhaps you should read the two Dzudzuana papers again. It's another way of modeling all of these samples.

Everything is not about y lines. Their autosomal inheritance is also important. Or don't you see that "Brown" component in them. That's not WHG, although EHG had some of it.

As to culture, the steppe culture was mostly picked up from the farmers around them to the west and from the Caucasus, as Silesian pointed out.

Their contribution was the domestication of the horse and perhaps a more warlike culture. When climate change and the plague perhaps brought with initial contacts with steppe people, caused the destruction of "Old Europe", they were in the right place, with the right "economic" style. Surely this is now known by everyone.

It's as simple as that; it's always as simple as that. When the civilized core disintegrates, the people on the periphery move in and have to catch up. It's the way of history. No point glorying in it or decrying it.
 
Johen, I fear you are making your own definition of what/who is EHG... the Baikal element was, I think, a slight part of EHG, not the core, by far.
To me it seems typical CWC have different physical features than the most of Andronovo, even if they share a good chunk of same components at the basis. BTW, Andronovo, as a cultural concept, contains some variations in its population composition, according t places and crossings at the margins with WSHG.
Concernng shapes, broad faces - at lest at the cheekbones level was a common thing among almost all European and Eurasian HG's. If something happened, it would be rather a narrowing of faces among CWC, perhaps an exaggerated effect of crossings with farmers elements (an hypothesis). What hapened is rather a narrowing on the westward way than a broadening on the eastward way...
Just my opinion for what it is worth.

there is some misunderstanding. I mean lake baikal(= almost full of east asian)
ancient-modern-european-admixture.jpg


I think I mentioned all on the base of acdemic paper. Actually now I am tired of quoting unlike before. Regarding andronovo anthro, I quoted several times recent russian paper that andronovo people have 3 types and how "Andronovo proper" looks like.

Think about how andronovo migrated if the blow R1a came from west:

"the oldest example of r1a in ancient dna from central asia is dated to 2132-1940 calbce (id i3770, narasimhan 2019). moreover, this sequence is closely related to much older r1a samples from central, eastern and northern europe, and phylogenetically nested within their diversity. thus, it must surely represent a population expansion from europe to central asia. indeed, it's also associated with the bronze age andronovo archeological culture, which is usually seen as an offshoot of the corded ware culture (cwc) of late neolithic europe. the vast majority of present-day r1a lineages in central asia are closely related to that of i3770, and so must also ultimately derive from europe."

The archaeology paper that east andronovo culture is much older than west has already mention in every forum, and I quoted a few times in here and there.

Now it will be good if scholar focus upon west siberia more than ever which has a key.
 

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