Classify this woman

Just for some context, these three women have important roles in the series and have French surnames:









This one also has a major role, but the surname isn't French. Her name is Marie Kremer.

Angela said:

Permit me to doubt that a teen-ager in Chicago could have any basis of comparison since I doubt there's a lot of Iranians, or even French people, Spaniards, or Northern Italians living there. Most Hispanics are racially admixed. Are you taking lessons from Sikeliot, the basement amateur anthropologist on theapricity?

Second of all, the eyes are totally off for Iranians, who have much bigger eyes, and the coloring as well. The combination of features and pigmentation does not at all "spell" Iranian. Europeans have an eye for what other Europeans look like. This actress looks either French, Spanish or Italian. This woman looks like a southern European, and her name shows she probably has Spanish ancestry.

Click to expand...

Whoo settle down. I gave my opinion that was it. I'm not claiming to have superior knowledge.

i would say she looks greek or possibly armenian.

alpinid, iberia/italy.

Angela said:

Just for some context, these three women have important roles in the series and have French surnames:

This one also has a major role, but the surname isn't French. Her name is Marie Kremer.

Click to expand...

The first women has strong Germanic features even though as you say she is French. The third one should be from Bretain province, with that Celtic look.Two last one also have Germanic look for most part

DuPidh said:

The first women has strong Germanic features even though as you say she is French. The third one should be from Bretain province, with that Celtic look.Two last one also have Germanic look for most part

Click to expand...

The first two pictures are of the same woman. I don't think she's particularly German looking. The second one looks French to me, period.

You can find Mediterranean types in France as well as more northwestern and central European types and blends as well. That's reflected in the genetics, so the "Lyons" French numbers are different from the southwest French numbers. Were more regions represented it would be even more obvious.

Maurice Chevalier:


Louis Jourdan


One of my favorites: Alain Delon


I just noticed it, but I think he has a bit of the look of Gabriel Garko to him.


Charles Boyer:



Vincent Cassel-not handsome, but he has something:


There's an awful lot of Alpines in France.

From the series: Thierry Godard:


Francois Loriquet:



Martin Loizillon-I like his character; he's the resistance leader.



Many of the others have ancestry from other places: Robin Menucci plays the town doctor, my favorite character, except for his tolerance of his adulterous wife, and one of the "heroes"...



The German parts are mostly played by German actors. They look quite different even when the coloring is the same.

Here are the two opposing forces: the evil and the good. The series is very satisfying in that way: there's no confusion about the sides.


As for an actress specifically from southern France: Audrey Toutou.

Angela said:

Strictly for fun, could you guys take a stab at "classifying her"? This combination puzzles me.

Would different pigmentation change the classification?

Click to expand...

I think it may be a mixture of Italian with Greek, comes to my head the Rape of the Sabines.:wary2: I think it's a mixture, Celtic something else.

Carlos said:

I think it may be a mixture of Italian with Greek, comes to my head the Rape of the Sabines.:wary2: I think it's a mixture, Celtic something else.

Click to expand...

How did the Greeks get into the admixture of the Sabines and the Romans?

I agree she shows admixture, but everyone in Europe is admixed, although there's more variation in southern Europe.

Other than her "fitting" in the Near East, I think Yetos came closest.

Angela said:

How did the Greeks get into the admixture of the Sabines and the Romans?

I agree she shows admixture, but everyone in Europe is admixed, although there's more variation in southern Europe.

Other than her "fitting" in the Near East, I think Yetos came closest.

Click to expand...

The Ancient Greeks were adventurous colonizers of the Mediterranean in Antiquity especially the Phocaeans, colonizing places that would one day become parts of the Roman Empire and around the Black Sea. The Greeks also set up a colony in Italy called Magna Graecia. Some Greek colonies were even founded by the vanquished; either from invasion or civil wars between different tribes.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Graecia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity

Italians and Greeks have been genetically tightly knit ever since until at least the Dark Ages/Middle Age invasions into the Mediterranean. Both Sabine, Italian and Greeks I could imagine be confused with each other.

As for my shot at guessing probably Northern Italian/French

Twilight said:

The Ancient Greeks were adventurous colonizers of the Mediterranean in Antiquity especially the Phocaeans, colonizing places that would one day become parts of the Roman Empire and around the Black Sea. The Greeks also set up a colony in Italy called Magna Graecia. Some Greek colonies were even founded by the vanquished; either from invasion or civil wars between different tribes.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Graecia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity

Italians and Greeks have been genetically tightly knit ever since until at least the Dark Ages/Middle Age invasions into the Mediterranean. Both Sabine, Italian and Greeks I could imagine be confused with each other.

As for my shot at guessing probably Northern Italian/French

Click to expand...

We agree as to the bolded statement. As to the latter I think she looks Spanish as well, as would make sense as she has a Spanish surname, but more northern Spanish. When I studied in Barcelona for a semester I traveled quite a bit. I liked the northern parts of Spain in particular. In places like inland northern Spain, like Zaragoza, Burgos, for example, if all the people had been mute, I might have thought at times I was home in Italy in Liguria or Emilia etc.

https://br.linkedin.com/in/léa-miguel-6b5a9998

Léa Miguel (France)

Miguel surname of Galician origin is set in different parts of Spain and even France specifically in Marseille.

Another Miguel artist, I stay dead, is a woman or a goddess?

I come when the battle is over, it's easier!
If I had made guesses I would have said like someones here: 1) Central Northern Italian (woman) or South-Central French, before 2) other southern countries; not typically 'mediterranean', either from West or East.
Agree with Angela: her eyes colour is very rare among Near-Easterners and Iranians - could be genetically the result of a mix of dark brown eyes and common blue eyes genes coders.
for bones, her face evocates to me a mix where gracile western 'mediterranean' is mixed with something inherited from older forms with 'cromagnoid' trends (gracilized of course) plus some 'alpine' trend. (the true 'alpine type is very harmonious concerning face and skull proportions contrary to 'cromagnoid' spite they could have a common far origin) - this woman's face is a bit too large.
the notch of cleft in the chin is not too common in Europe but is not so rare. For I suppose, it seems more often associated with thick skin and broad (squared) and a bit shallow inferior jaws, so evocating some 'cromagnoid' heritage for me. It's found among Western Norwegian (very less 'nordiclike' than the most of other Norwegians and Swedes. Not so rare among Danes, irishmen and common enough among typical Welshmen. But the 'cromagnoid' heritage, spite rare enough as a whole, is absent of no European regions, and even is found among Iranians, Armenians, Caucasians. I wonder if it is not well present too among Italians of Napoli region. All the way, very common nowhere, and absent nowhere, for I think.
@Maciamo: the actors are the worst examples to be taken for ethnic illustration, and are - as Politicians - very often of foreign origin in the countries they are taken as example: always the question of social success for a few percentage of combative migrants and the snobism of "exoticness". Even for genuine "aborigenes" of the country, the selection explain the succes of some physical features for actors, thing which can change by time as modes pass.
Personal bets without guarantee

Come late to the party anytime; you've nailed it, imo. It's the combination of western Mediterranean and cm that explains most of her phenotype. It's a look I've seen more than once at home, although usually the skin tone is lighter. That's what struck me when I saw the series. I just didn't know how to describe it. Fwiw, that's the color of my eyes, and I've always thought it was a combination of my dad's light eyes and my mother's dark brown ones.

You're right about Napoli; I've seen the cleft chin there. You can barely see it in this famous Neapolitan woman, but it's much less pronounced in most women anyway. Anyway, both he and his sister got it from their Neapolitan grandmother, although deeper in his case.


Likewise as to the fact that actors represent what is being "selected for" or considered attractive in certain eras, (although unless they're comedians, they're almost always more attractive than the average) and so it changes. I associate the wide jaw and cleft chin with masculinity, and I think actors of, say, the 30's, 40's, 50's, had a much more masculine look than the actors today, and so you see much more of it in actors of that era.

I know actors don't necessarily represent the most common phenotype of their countries, at least not if they're playing romantic leads, but still, French and Italian actors don't usually look like American actors. I think that's one reason I still watch so many French and Italian and Spanish (and Greek if I can find them) films and television shows; the people seem more familiar to me than the people in a lot of American and British dramas, even after all these years. Plus, I don't feel bad about posting their pictures without their consent; they've sort of agreed to give up their privacy. If it weren't for wanting to protect their privacy, I'd post my whole family and all my friends so I could get your expert opinion!

Thanks to everyone who participated, by the way...lots of great answers, and I really appreciated the input.


@Carlos,
The other Miguel is wonderful, Carlos; she's like a force of nature. She's a very different type in terms of looks, however.

Here's a northern Italian who has a similar kind of facial structure, I think: Irene Fornaciari, singer herself and daughter of singer Zucchero Fornaciari.

Angela said:

Just for some context, these three women have important roles in the series and have French surnames:

Click to expand...

I know a Belgian woman who looks just like her. This type is also common in the northern half of France.

[Edit] I googled her name and she is Belgian. No surprise.

Click to expand...

As French as it gets.

Click to expand...

I would have said British, or perhaps Dutch.

This one also has a major role, but the surname isn't French. Her name is Marie Kremer.

Click to expand...

Could look Belgian, Northeast French or (Rhineland) German. Btw, Kremer is a common surname in Lorraine and Luxembourg, but is also found in Belgium. I looked her up and she is actually Belgian.

Angela said:

Here's a northern Italian who has a similar kind of facial structure, I think: Irene Fornaciari, singer herself and daughter of singer Zucchero Fornaciari.

Click to expand...

Zucchero Fornaciari is northern Italian (Emilian) but Irene's mother is central Italian (Tuscan); Irene was born in Tuscany where her mother raised her, her parents separated after her birth. I don't know if she considers herself Emilian like her father, Tuscan like her mother or both. Zucchero lives in Tuscany as well.

Irene younger...





More recent pic

Yes, I know...last I heard he still has the property outside Pontremoli that he's had for ever. I think his father moved them to Carrara when he was young. If he spits he can practically hit Emilia from Pontremoli, so not much of a change. I've seen Irene in Pontremoli a lot in the summer, him too, but I thought she now lived in Genova.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0CmPhrfUdg

Anyway...your point was? My categorization of her as northern Italian doesn't suit your exacting standards?

The point was whether she is of a similar type, yes? Your opinion?

Fwiw she looks a lot like one of my full Emilian cousins, only my cousin didn't let herself get fat like that...same once really red hair, freckles, blue eyes, and even the same height and big bones. I didn't get any of it, except the paleness and the face shape. My rather square jaw is not my favorite feature.

Angela said:

Yes, I know...last I heard he still has the property outside Pontremoli that he's had for ever. I think his father moved them to Carrara when he was young. If he spits he can practically hit Emilia from Pontremoli, so not much of a change. I've seen Irene in Pontremoli a lot in the summer, him too, but I thought she now lived in Genova.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0CmPhrfUdg

Anyway...your point was? My categorization of her as northern Italian doesn't suit your exacting standards?

The point was whether she is of a similar type, yes? Your opinion?

Fwiw she looks a lot like one of my full Emilian cousins, only my cousin didn't let herself get fat like that...same once really red hair, freckles, blue eyes, and even the same height and big bones. I didn't get any of it, except the paleness and the face shape. My rather square jaw is not my favorite feature.

Click to expand...

Poor Irene, some of the pictures posted are really unflattering. Here she is when her weight is under control...quite familiar body type for that area....


Here is a good profile picture of her:


In some pictures I think she and Wynona Judd share a bit of a resemblance. She's half Italian by the way.



Here is Irene performing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K0ioyS5PYk

Angela said:

Yes, I know...last I heard he still has the property outside Pontremoli that he's had for ever. I think his father moved them to Carrara when he was young. If he spits he can practically hit Emilia from Pontremoli, so not much of a change. I've seen Irene in Pontremoli a lot in the summer, him too, but I thought she now lived in Genova.

Click to expand...

Correct, she lives in Genova. Genova is the hometown of her boyfriend who is a musician as well.

Angela said:

Anyway...your point was? My categorization of her as northern Italian doesn't suit your exacting standards?

The point was whether she is of a similar type, yes? Your opinion?

Fwiw she looks a lot like one of my full Emilian cousins, only my cousin didn't let herself get fat like that...same once really red hair, freckles, blue eyes, and even the same height and big bones. I didn't get any of it, except the paleness and the face shape. My rather square jaw is not my favorite feature.

Click to expand...

Sure, Irene looks very northern Italian and she is a somewhat similar type to the previous example. But I've seen faces as hers also in Northern Tuscany, at least up to Lucca-Pistoia. She very much reminds a person I know who comes from that area. I think that among Emilian and Tuscan Apennines there have been small but continuous migrations over the centuries.

Angela said:

Poor Irene, some of the pictures posted are really unflattering. Here she is when her weight is under control...quite familiar body type for that area....

Here is a good profile picture of her:

In some pictures I think she and Wynona Judd share a bit of a resemblance. She's half Italian by the way.

Here is Irene performing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K0ioyS5PYk

Click to expand...

Wynona Judd evocates me some Irish women too. No contradiction.
Her head seems a bit larger than the Iren's one. The two had broad and rather square jaws, typical for 'cromanoid' and 'borrreby' (the A for my classification); 'alpine' as a whole is more reduced in jaw. Here, Irene seems closer to 'cro-magnon' pattern because her skull appears to me narrow enough, at least in the frontal part. But it seems Alps were could have been the place where some of the 'cro-magnoids' evolved towards diverse brachycephalized types and the frontiers in the regions of "creation" are not always clear . By the way a lot of Italians of the North Appenines would have Alps ancestors, maybe in more than a wave, before and with Ligurians (ancient) or close people. DNA and History would confirm this, but people here know more details than me.
Only bets upon pictures which show us how angles of sight can change the feeling we have about physical features, without speaking of the fat!
My personal thought concerning genetic traits is that things are abit more complicated than believed, and "teached" in vulgarization papers. By example, the hair colour of body seen as a whole is mistaking; pigmentation of hairs varies not only between whole head hairs and body hairs and beard and eyebrows, but even the head hairs can be splitted in several "surfaces" (top # vertical branch of beard associated with periauricular region, at least; moustaches associated with a triangle under the mouth are often of a different colour than the horizontal part of the beard itself different from the vertical branch (cheeks). Sorry for my poor english concerning some body parts! It's very possible that, apart from global "pure type" pigmentation, a common sub-pattern could exist concerning beard, a sexual trait. It's true as a whole that homogeneity on the same man is the rule in some countries where a type of pigmentation is very dominant, less in very "admixted" ones; effects of crossing-over I suppose.
Same for the skull: after having observed a lot of people and very amazing dysharmonious skulls, it seems evident to me that we inherit our skull shapes by a kit of "bits" rather than a simple "bit". It seems too it occurs more in old pops with ancient crossings compared to ones with more recent crossings. It's not offical science but it's observations.