Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

kingjohn · Aug 24, 2022

Andrewid said:
The initial Vahaduo calculations of relatedness to modern Greeks and Italians should be amended to include Cyprus. G25 now has new academic samples of Cypriots and Davidski has removed the outliers from before. From what I can see from my own G25 calculations, Cypriots figure prominently in the top 25, particularly the EBA Aegean and Minoan samples. This tallies with academic research.

The future southern Arc paper
Will include: ancient dna from cyprus
I think as a cypriot you will find it interesting
Maybe we will be able to see the autosomal changes in this island from neolithic to iron age
That would be great

eupator · Aug 24, 2022

Andrewid said:
Why are you making vast generalisations? The only thing that smells, nay stinks, is your comment.

It's okay, a lot of posters feel they are the lost cousin of Achilles and Odysseus because their paid sub on mytrueancestry's PCA said so.

So they personalize the conversation because they feel personally attacked when historical truth knocks on the door.

So far none of my points were contested, in fact, most of the stuff other people posted with their models confirm these historical truths.

And we haven't even began talking about modern Greek haplogroups ...

matadworf · Aug 24, 2022

Where can those new sample coordinates be found?

matadworf · Aug 24, 2022

Andrewid said:
The initial Vahaduo calculations of relatedness to modern Greeks and Italians should be amended to include Cyprus. G25 now has new academic samples of Cypriots and Davidski has removed the outliers from before. From what I can see from my own G25 calculations, Cypriots figure prominently in the top 25, particularly the EBA Aegean and Minoan samples. This tallies with academic research.

Where can the new Cypriot samples be found?
Were they added to the G 25 database?

eupator · Aug 24, 2022

And since I've heard the "being jealous" argument repeated a bit too many times, here's a little info about myself

Code:

fst(prefix, pop1 = "Greece_BA_Mycenaean", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek"))
ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 24 samples in 3 populations
ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 81 MB
597k SNPs read...
✔ 597573 SNPs read in total
! 169155 SNPs remain after filtering. 156076 are polymorphic.
ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 169155 SNPs and 3 populations is 16 MB
ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 97 MB RAM without splitting
ℹ Computing without splitting since 97 < 8000 (maxmem)...
ℹ Returning fst blocks
# A tibble: 2 × 4
  pop1                pop2      est      se
                       
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean eptr 0.00227 0.00325
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greek 0.00792 0.00136

Code:

fst(prefix, pop1 = "Italy_Imperial.SG", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek"), adjust_pseudohaploid = FALSE)
ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 56 samples in 3 populations
ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 81 MB
597k SNPs read...
✔ 597573 SNPs read in total
! 245195 SNPs remain after filtering. 231896 are polymorphic.
ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 245195 SNPs and 3 populations is 24 MB
ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 141 MB RAM without splitting
ℹ Computing without splitting since 141 < 8000 (maxmem)...
ℹ Returning fst blocks
# A tibble: 2 × 4
  pop1              pop2      est       se
                      
1 Italy_Imperial.SG eptr 0.00957 0.00232 
2 Italy_Imperial.SG Greek 0.0141  0.000197

As you can see I am closer to both the BA Mycenean samples and the Roman_Imperial samples in Reich's database compared to the Greek average (what Lazaridis' 2017 used).

Do you think this is because I am also a lost cousin of those Myceneans or is it because of my particular regional mix? Can you now begin to comprehend the argument I am trying to make?

Shall I also partake in this carnival of pretense and wipe out 2K+ years of population history and perform cultural and historical erasure on my own people's collective memory and tradition?

And for Yetos: The Greeks of Thrace were Phanariotes, end of story. They were Ottoman friendlies, public servants and highly decorated military men a lot of them. Their antagonizers were the Bulgarians, not the Ottomans, they lived rich lives in one of the wealthiest territories of the known world, the dissolution of the Empire forced them into poverty in a hostile state (Kingdom of Greece) where they had to start over from nothing.

This is the historical truth and no verbosity against them can deny it.

matadworf · Aug 24, 2022

eupator said:
And since I've heard the "being jealous" argument repeated a bit too many times, here's a little info about myself

Code:

fst(prefix, pop1 = "Greece_BA_Mycenaean", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek")) ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files... ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 24 samples in 3 populations ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 81 MB 597k SNPs read... ✔ 597573 SNPs read in total ! 169155 SNPs remain after filtering. 156076 are polymorphic. ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 169155 SNPs and 3 populations is 16 MB ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 97 MB RAM without splitting ℹ Computing without splitting since 97 < 8000 (maxmem)... ℹ Returning fst blocks # A tibble: 2 × 4 pop1 pop2 est se 1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean eptr 0.00227 0.00325 2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greek 0.00792 0.00136

Code:

fst(prefix, pop1 = "Italy_Imperial.SG", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek"), adjust_pseudohaploid = FALSE) ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files... ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 56 samples in 3 populations ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 81 MB 597k SNPs read... ✔ 597573 SNPs read in total ! 245195 SNPs remain after filtering. 231896 are polymorphic. ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 245195 SNPs and 3 populations is 24 MB ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 141 MB RAM without splitting ℹ Computing without splitting since 141 < 8000 (maxmem)... ℹ Returning fst blocks # A tibble: 2 × 4 pop1 pop2 est se 1 Italy_Imperial.SG eptr 0.00957 0.00232 2 Italy_Imperial.SG Greek 0.0141 0.000197

As you can see I am closer to both the BA Mycenean samples and the Roman_Imperial samples in Reich's database compared to the Greek average (what Lazaridis' 2017 used).

Do you think this is because I am also a lost cousin of those Myceneans or is it because of my particular regional mix? Can you now begin to comprehend the argument I am trying to make?

Shall I also partake in this carnival of pretense and wipe out 2K+ years of population history and perform cultural and historical erasure on my own people's collective memory and tradition?

And for Yetos: The Greeks of Thrace were Phanariotes, end of story. They were Ottoman friendlies, public servants and highly decorated military men a lot of them. Their antagonizers were the Bulgarians, not the Ottomans, they lived rich lives in one of the wealthiest territories of the known world, the dissolution of the Empire forced them into poverty in a hostile state (Kingdom of Greece) where they had to start over from nothing.

This is the historical truth and no verbosity against them can deny it.

I totally agree with your point about modern admixture and genetic distance to the ancients. It’s just a fun comparison thing that folks take way too seriously. I mean I’m super close to that Logkas 2 sample just because of the component similarity. There’s certainly nothing alluring about a middle Bronze Age Helladic sample

Leopoldo Leone · Aug 24, 2022

Andrewid said:
Why are you making vast generalisations? The only thing that smells, nay stinks, is your comment.

And as Lazardes et al say on p6 of their origins of the Mycenaeans/Minoans study:

We estimated FSTof Bronze Age populations with present-day West Eurasians, finding that
Mycenaeans are least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and
Italy (Fig. 2), part of a general pattern in which Bronze Age populations broadly resemble
present-day inhabitants from the same region

And this comment is not even relevant, it's a clear nonsequitur, since I've never implied that Mycenaeans are not least differentiated from populations from Greece,Cyprus, Albania and Italy; I'll try to make it simple for you:

1) Among those populations, it is ascertained that the closest are Peloponnesian Greeks and Cretans and south Italians, and to the extent Cretans can be used as a proxy for other Greek islanders, also other Greek islanders are pretty close.
2) The genetic literature's consensus is that it is so because those populations had the fewest amount of external genetic input; to keep the discussion on topic, specifically that Peloponnesian Greeks (southern ones particularly) and Greek islanders have the lowest input from Slavic and hence are the closest to ancient Greeks, and more broadly Greeks as a whole are modelled as ancient Greeks + Slavs.
3) Other Greeks from particular ethnic backgrounds and Albanians in this thread deny point 2 and put forward laughable claims, namely that actually Greeks are made up from a very diverse array of different populations whose overall mix somehow approximates what you'd get if you mixed ancient Greeks and Slavs.
4) Since point three is what happens when you throw aside Ockham's razor and decide to take the pataphysical approach, I can't deduce it is motivated by ethnic inferiority complexes.

mount123 said:
These are very generalizing statements and don't differ much from other sentiments I have come across on this thread.

With 100% or almost 100% Balkanites you are whom exactly addressing?

The when-clause ought to make clear that I refer to those posters that insist on their delusions, since what I said applies when they engage in said behaviour, but to avoid misunderstanding, of course I have no intention of accusing all members of an ethnicity, since it would be dumb and directed towards people that aren't an annoyance.
With "100% or almost 100% Balkanites " I am referring to how certain Albanian posters here describe themselves as "100% descendants of ancient Balkanites" (when they insisted that "it is no coincidence that they are similar to Logkas 2") BUT they also insist that Greeks just "happen" to cluster close to them because Greeks would be heavily admixed with Slavs whereas they are not (so they claim, whatever meaning you want to give to "heavily").

eupator said:
It's okay, a lot of posters feel they are the lost cousin of Achilles and Odysseus because their paid sub on mytrueancestry's PCA said so.

So they personalize the conversation because they feel personally attacked when historical truth knocks on the door.

So far none of my points were contested, in fact, most of the stuff other people posted with their models confirm these historical truths.

And we haven't even began talking about modern Greek haplogroups ...

Your "historical truths" are wild speculations that fail many epistemological standards in historiography (said otherwise, you make a lot of inductive mistakes, you lack understanding of the larger picture, and show no critical appraisal of the information you read in ancient sources), I suggest you read some books about the methods and standards used in historical research.

eupator · Aug 24, 2022

Leopoldo Leone said:
Your "historical truths" are wild speculations that fail many epistemological standards in historiography (said otherwise, you make a lot of inductive mistakes, you lack understanding of the larger picture, and show no critical appraisal of the information you read in ancient sources), I suggest you read some books about the methods and standards used in historical research.

I refer to Byzantine historiographers and chroniclers, such as Chalcocondyles, Anna Komnenian, and more recents like Meletios. Their writings even have dedicated wiki pages these days, they are very easy to find.

If you have criticisms about the Byzantine historiographers, I am more than happy to indulge as I am always willing to learn.

Other than that, your post is too egotistical to address, I have a Ph.D. in ethnography, I win the 'appeal to authority' contest.

bigsnake49 · Aug 24, 2022

eupator said:
And since I've heard the "being jealous" argument repeated a bit too many times, here's a little info about myself

Code:

fst(prefix, pop1 = "Greece_BA_Mycenaean", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek")) ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files... ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 24 samples in 3 populations ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 81 MB 597k SNPs read... ✔ 597573 SNPs read in total ! 169155 SNPs remain after filtering. 156076 are polymorphic. ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 169155 SNPs and 3 populations is 16 MB ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 97 MB RAM without splitting ℹ Computing without splitting since 97 < 8000 (maxmem)... ℹ Returning fst blocks # A tibble: 2 × 4 pop1 pop2 est se 1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean eptr 0.00227 0.00325 2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greek 0.00792 0.00136

Code:

fst(prefix, pop1 = "Italy_Imperial.SG", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek"), adjust_pseudohaploid = FALSE) ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files... ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 56 samples in 3 populations ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 81 MB 597k SNPs read... ✔ 597573 SNPs read in total ! 245195 SNPs remain after filtering. 231896 are polymorphic. ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 245195 SNPs and 3 populations is 24 MB ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 141 MB RAM without splitting ℹ Computing without splitting since 141 < 8000 (maxmem)... ℹ Returning fst blocks # A tibble: 2 × 4 pop1 pop2 est se 1 Italy_Imperial.SG eptr 0.00957 0.00232 2 Italy_Imperial.SG Greek 0.0141 0.000197

As you can see I am closer to both the BA Mycenean samples and the Roman_Imperial samples in Reich's database compared to the Greek average (what Lazaridis' 2017 used).

Do you think this is because I am also a lost cousin of those Myceneans or is it because of my particular regional mix? Can you now begin to comprehend the argument I am trying to make?

Shall I also partake in this carnival of pretense and wipe out 2K+ years of population history and perform cultural and historical erasure on my own people's collective memory and tradition?

And for Yetos: The Greeks of Thrace were Phanariotes, end of story. They were Ottoman friendlies, public servants and highly decorated military men a lot of them. Their antagonizers were the Bulgarians, not the Ottomans, they lived rich lives in one of the wealthiest territories of the known world, the dissolution of the Empire forced them into poverty in a hostile state (Kingdom of Greece) where they had to start over from nothing.

This is the historical truth and no verbosity against them can deny it.

All of the Greeks of Thrace? Eastern, Western and Northern Thrace? This is just from memory while I am drinking my coffee, but 300,000 Greeks from all those areas found their way to Greece from 1878-1923.

matadworf · Aug 24, 2022

Leopoldo Leone said:
And this comment is not even relevant, it's a clear nonsequitur, since I've never implied that Mycenaeans are not least differentiated from populations from Greece,Cyprus, Albania and Italy; I'll try to make it simple for you:

1) Among those populations, it is ascertained that the closest are Peloponnesian Greeks and Cretans and south Italians, and to the extent Cretans can be used as a proxy for other Greek islanders, also other Greek islanders are pretty close.
2) The genetic literature's consensus is that it is so because those populations had the fewest amount of external genetic input; to keep the discussion on topic, specifically that Peloponnesian Greeks (southern ones particularly) and Greek islanders have the lowest input from Slavic and hence are the closest to ancient Greeks, and more broadly Greeks as a whole are modelled as ancient Greeks + Slavs.
3) Other Greeks from particular ethnic backgrounds and Albanians in this thread deny point 2 and put forward laughable claims, namely that actually Greeks are made up from a very diverse array of different populations whose overall mix somehow approximates what you'd get if you mixed ancient Greeks and Slavs.
4) Since point three is what happens when you throw aside Ockham's razor and decide to take the pataphysical approach, I can't deduce it is motivated by ethnic inferiority complexes.

The when-clause ought to make clear that I refer to those posters that insist on their delusions, since what I said applies when they engage in said behaviour, but to avoid misunderstanding, of course I have no intention of accusing all members of an ethnicity, since it would be dumb and directed towards people that aren't an annoyance.
With "100% or almost 100% Balkanites " I am referring to how certain Albanian posters here describe themselves as "100% descendants of ancient Balkanites" (when they insisted that "it is no coincidence that they are similar to Logkas 2") BUT they also insist that Greeks just "happen" to cluster close to them because Greeks would be heavily admixed with Slavs whereas they are not (so they claim, whatever meaning you want to give to "heavily").

Your "historical truths" are wild speculations that fail many epistemological standards in historiography (said otherwise, you make a lot of inductive mistakes, you lack understanding of the larger picture, and show no critical appraisal of the information you read in ancient sources), I suggest you read some books about the methods and standards used in historical research.

I do agree that there has not been any significant population turnover in Greece since the Classical era. We don’t really know what happened during the dark ages there could have been an influx from the North and another from the Western or Eastern Med. We do know that the most substantive genetic input came from Southern Slavs who most likely raised the Steppe levels in Continental Greece (not the more isolated regions of the Peloponnese) I honestly don’t believe there was much additional gene flow into continental Greece or mass migrations from coastal Anatolia during earlier periods. Were their settlers from the East possibly but certainly nothing on a large scale.History says it was usually the other way around; Greeks leaving the mainland for a better life. So yes at this point I’m going with what the paleogenetecists are saying about Greece; Deep Mani and Tsakonia have the least amount of Slav admixture and are closest to Crete. The rest of the Peloponnese, particularly Messinia including Western Mani, Elis, Argolis, and Arcadia are much closer to Thessaly and Macedonia due to increased Steppe or whatever you want to call it.

mount123 · Aug 24, 2022

Leopoldo Leone said:
The when-clause ought to make clear that I refer to those posters that insist on their delusions, since what I said applies when they engage in said behaviour, but to avoid misunderstanding, of course I have no intention of accusing all members of an ethnicity, since it would be dumb and directed towards people that aren't an annoyance.
With "100% or almost 100% Balkanites " I am referring to how certain Albanian posters here describe themselves as "100% descendants of ancient Balkanites" (when they insisted that "it is no coincidence that they are similar to Logkas 2") BUT they also insist that Greeks just "happen" to cluster close to them because Greeks would be heavily admixed with Slavs whereas they are not (so they claim, whatever meaning you want to give to "heavily").

Well, thanks for clarifying. I get your point but generally still think it is rather appropriate to address individually and not in regards to ethnicity.

I don't want to dwell too much into this discussion out of respect for matadworf but as long as people address for instance something like the population exchange between Turkey and Greece and how that has had its impact in certain groups I don't think that they are propagating when doing that. Or that population modelling does not always portray actual ancestry and other nuances. I don't want to comment on other standpoints posted here.

eupator · Aug 24, 2022

bigsnake49 said:
All of the Greeks of Thrace? Eastern, Western and Northern Thrace? This is just from memory while I am drinking my coffee, but 300,000 Greeks from all those areas found their way to Greece from 1878-1923.

Western Thrace didn't have a lot of Greeks, the majority was in Eastern and in the Principality of Eastern Rumelia/Bulgaria.

I am not sure if I understood the question correctly, but up until the point where the Young Turk movement started to take over in the 1910s+, the Thracian Ottoman Greeks were the most affluent artisan, bureaucratic and merchant group/class next to the capital (not discounting Pontus and Asia Minor coastline).

Also, please check your PMs.

bigsnake49 · Aug 24, 2022

eupator said:
Western Thrace didn't have a lot of Greeks, the majority was in Eastern and in the Principality of Eastern Rumelia/Bulgaria.

I am not sure if I understood the question correctly, but up until the point where the Young Turk movement started to take over in the 1910s+, the Thracian Ottoman Greeks were the most affluent artisan, bureaucratic and merchant group/class next to the capital (not discounting Pontus and Asia Minor coastline).

Also, please check your PMs.

While the Greeks of Eastern Thrace and Northern Thrace that lived in the cities were all that, the farmers that lived in the villages were not. While the elite might have migrated from other areas of the empire to the area's cities, the farmers were probably hellenized locals, Thracians of old mixed in with some of the newer migrants.

Angela · Aug 24, 2022

Leopoldo Leone said:
And this comment is not even relevant, it's a clear nonsequitur, since I've never implied that Mycenaeans are not least differentiated from populations from Greece,Cyprus, Albania and Italy; I'll try to make it simple for you:

1) Among those populations, it is ascertained that the closest are Peloponnesian Greeks and Cretans and south Italians, and to the extent Cretans can be used as a proxy for other Greek islanders, also other Greek islanders are pretty close.
2) The genetic literature's consensus is that it is so because those populations had the fewest amount of external genetic input; to keep the discussion on topic, specifically that Peloponnesian Greeks (southern ones particularly) and Greek islanders have the lowest input from Slavic and hence are the closest to ancient Greeks, and more broadly Greeks as a whole are modelled as ancient Greeks + Slavs.
3) Other Greeks from particular ethnic backgrounds and Albanians in this thread deny point 2 and put forward laughable claims, namely that actually Greeks are made up from a very diverse array of different populations whose overall mix somehow approximates what you'd get if you mixed ancient Greeks and Slavs.
4) Since point three is what happens when you throw aside Ockham's razor and decide to take the pataphysical approach, I can't deduce it is motivated by ethnic inferiority complexes.

The when-clause ought to make clear that I refer to those posters that insist on their delusions, since what I said applies when they engage in said behaviour, but to avoid misunderstanding, of course I have no intention of accusing all members of an ethnicity, since it would be dumb and directed towards people that aren't an annoyance.
With "100% or almost 100% Balkanites " I am referring to how certain Albanian posters here describe themselves as "100% descendants of ancient Balkanites" (when they insisted that "it is no coincidence that they are similar to Logkas 2") BUT they also insist that Greeks just "happen" to cluster close to them because Greeks would be heavily admixed with Slavs whereas they are not (so they claim, whatever meaning you want to give to "heavily").

Your "historical truths" are wild speculations that fail many epistemological standards in historiography (said otherwise, you make a lot of inductive mistakes, you lack understanding of the larger picture, and show no critical appraisal of the information you read in ancient sources), I suggest you read some books about the methods and standards used in historical research.

Excellent post. If I could give you ten upvotes I would.

I would add that when asked for actual evidence of those wild speculations one is met by a deafening silence.

blevins13 · Aug 24, 2022

Leopoldo Leone said:
And this comment is not even relevant, it's a clear nonsequitur, since I've never implied that Mycenaeans are not least differentiated from populations from Greece,Cyprus, Albania and Italy; I'll try to make it simple for you:

1) Among those populations, it is ascertained that the closest are Peloponnesian Greeks and Cretans and south Italians, and to the extent Cretans can be used as a proxy for other Greek islanders, also other Greek islanders are pretty close.
2) The genetic literature's consensus is that it is so because those populations had the fewest amount of external genetic input; to keep the discussion on topic, specifically that Peloponnesian Greeks (southern ones particularly) and Greek islanders have the lowest input from Slavic and hence are the closest to ancient Greeks, and more broadly Greeks as a whole are modelled as ancient Greeks + Slavs.
3) Other Greeks from particular ethnic backgrounds and Albanians in this thread deny point 2 and put forward laughable claims, namely that actually Greeks are made up from a very diverse array of different populations whose overall mix somehow approximates what you'd get if you mixed ancient Greeks and Slavs.
4) Since point three is what happens when you throw aside Ockham's razor and decide to take the pataphysical approach, I can't deduce it is motivated by ethnic inferiority complexes.

The when-clause ought to make clear that I refer to those posters that insist on their delusions, since what I said applies when they engage in said behaviour, but to avoid misunderstanding, of course I have no intention of accusing all members of an ethnicity, since it would be dumb and directed towards people that aren't an annoyance.
With "100% or almost 100% Balkanites " I am referring to how certain Albanian posters here describe themselves as "100% descendants of ancient Balkanites" (when they insisted that "it is no coincidence that they are similar to Logkas 2") BUT they also insist that Greeks just "happen" to cluster close to them because Greeks would be heavily admixed with Slavs whereas they are not (so they claim, whatever meaning you want to give to "heavily").

Your "historical truths" are wild speculations that fail many epistemological standards in historiography (said otherwise, you make a lot of inductive mistakes, you lack understanding of the larger picture, and show no critical appraisal of the information you read in ancient sources), I suggest you read some books about the methods and standards used in historical research.

I see logic in your post, but it seem that you do not know the history of the Balkans. From the outsider view point as yourself I would probably say the same.

But you miss the following, malelines of the populations in the Balkans suffer tremendous bottle-necks between VI and VII century. For example the males lines of the Albanians come probability from 100 max men that have expanded in the last 1500 years as far as Morea after the Eastern Roman collapse. Same can be said for the Vllah male-lines and Greek male lines. But in case of Morea Greeks now the majority are not the male-lines of the Mycenaean Greeks or probably even classic Greeks. I am not saying that there is no continuity, but facts are facts, majority of the males lines has changed.

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

eupator · Aug 24, 2022

Angela said:
Excellent post. If I could give you ten upvotes I would.

I would add that when asked for actual evidence of those wild speculations one is met by a deafening silence.

What is that actual evidence that you need? A copy+paste of the actual passages from Chalcocondyles' work?

What evidence is there to contradict those historical passages, you haven't refuted anything so far. You just said Herodotus was wrong about Etruscans and called it a day, what does this argument have to do with Medieval and Ottoman Greece?

Lazaridis' Greek_Thessaloniki samples in the 2017 paper are part West Asian or half West Asian, you can open the Reich dataset .ind and .anno files and see for yourself if you don't believe me. I am sure I also saw those samples circulating on a K12b list somewhere. The other Greek samples on the Lazaridis paper are from Crete and Cyprus, there's no Peloponnesians in there unfortunately.

What else is there to prove?

Er Monnezza · Aug 24, 2022

My ancestor

Kuivamaa · Aug 24, 2022

blevins13 said:
…but he does not mention Albanians movements nor he tries to distinguish them.

I have the impression (judging by what 23andme etc are doing) that it is difficult in general to distinguish mainland Greek from south Albanian autosomal dna. Which makes sense since the base “materials” were similar for both populations, they coexisted and migrated/colonized each other’s areas and later in history both received influx of similar populations (eg slavs).

This reminds me of the whole controversy a few years back about what dna footprint did the Danish Vikings leave in “danelaw” areas of England. Papers have found little but many have pointed out the obvious issue here, that Saxons, and particularly Angles and Jutes which were one of the building blocks of pre-Norman England were quite possibly nearly identical to Viking Danes.

matadworf · Aug 24, 2022

blevins13 said:
I see logic in your post, but it seem that you do not know the history of the Balkans. From the outsider view point as yourself I would probably say the same.
But you miss the following, malelines of the populations in the Balkans suffer tremendous bottle-necks between VI and VII century. For example the males lines of the Albanians come probability from 100 max men that have expanded in the last 1500 years as far as Morea after the Eastern Roman collapse. Same can be said for the Vllah male-lines and Greek male lines. But in case of Morea Greeks now the majority are not the male-lines of the Mycenaean Greeks or probably even classic Greeks. I am not saying that there is no continuity, but facts are facts, majority of the males lines has changed.
Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

This is off topic but my maternal grandfather was an Arvanite from Aetos, Messinia. My maternal uncle (only male offspring) died young and he had one son who lives in Virginia. I was just about to purchase him a dna kit to check his haplogroup and he’s disappeared on me. I’m truly bummed because I wanted to check my maternal line. I was able to trace the family back to a village near Magalopolis called Merze (another obvious Arvanite village). I have quite a few dna matches in Korce.

eupator · Aug 24, 2022

On the Slavs and Romans of Morea (pp 233):

De Administrando Imperio [On Administering the Empire] : Constantine Porphyrogenitus : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Chalcocondyles' accord of Vlachs from Bogdania colonizing en mass the regions of Epirus, Thessaly all the way to Peloponnesos.

Screenshot-2022-03-07-at-16-56-19-Laonici-Chalcocondylae-Atheniensis-historiarum-libri-decem.png

Unfortunately, I don't have a translated copy of the above but you can trust my word for it or find a Greek speaker to confirm.

Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

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